How do we fix Canada's Healthcare crisis?

[mikedavid00]

I don't know where you live, August, but if you wander through a public housing project in Toronto, Ottawa or Montreal you're going to hear very little English or French.

Are they refugees or immigrants? If they are immigrants, they are required to speak English or French. They also require to have a doctor's examination.

If an immigrant sponsors a relative in, they have to pay the government to do so. They are also on the hook for three to ten years for their financial needs.

Nice try.

Seniors being sponsored in are now no longer required to take English testing. Volpe did this to grasp for votres nearing the end of the election so that rule has been changed.

If you are marrying or common low then you don't need to speak english at all. Lol.. I mean your being rediculous.. Have you been a china town?

And there are exceptionsto the rules about the 3-10 years.

And don't you dare tell me that they pay the gov't to do so becasue at the end of the day we spend 2.5 billion on immigration. They DO PAY fees yes, but we pay 2.5B to fund the dept. And Harper and Dion will keep lifting fees to get votes.

You know, you don't really understand the demographics of your own country. You don't understand why the Liberals are even sitting in Parlement. You don't understand the real reasons why the Liberals are ahead in the polls.

You really have your head in the sand when it comes to your own country.

[Drea]

Anther thing also to consider is that Canada is now 75% service industry oriented (aka low paying jobs). We don't have the backroom white collar/high paying jobs anymore to support a fat lifestyle like we used to.

Stats? A link?

This is a real shortage of work.

Different parts of the country are experiencing different levels of employment. Where are you?

Apparently the east isn't doing so well these days. So move to Alberta or BC.

When employers are positng 'entery level' positions demanding 3 years experience, a degree, and little pay, there is NO job shortage. Instead, 80 Candidates goign for one job (happened in my case) and willing to work for $28,000 a year just to be given the 'chance' to get experience. This is what's happening now and this is not a postive for our country in any way, shapre, or form.

Is there a job shortage or not?

It's just supply and demand. We have more people coming here than there are good jobs to go around so they have to take what they call 'survival jobs'. Becaue after all, they are 'entitled' to white collar jobs right out of the airport just because they have a 'degree' and are financially more elite than their counterparts back home who are starving and illiterate. (tongue in cheek).

I live on the fringes of the fraser valley. There are maybe three immigrant (read dark skinned -- we've got Dutch immigrant galore) families here.

Our head office is in the city next door. ALL of the lowpaid grunt work is done by female immigrants (once again read: Dark skinned immigrants) . ALL of it. Female immigrants with no english and no education. Why is this? Because these jobs are too "low" for whitey. Whitey would rather collect welfare than do grunt work.

[mikedavid00]

Tad pessimistic are you?

Every sector -- from roofers to managers to nurses to shit shovellers and chicken catchers. We need people!

Roofing is low paying labor that is always in demand. Call any roofing, moving, or landscaping company and your hired.

Experienced seniors and mangement positions are always in demand. These positions are usually very hard to find the right person for and don't apply to most of it. Find a non senior medical supply sales rep and it will take 6 months to find someone. These positions are always around but don't apply to the masses.

What do you want? Are you educated?

Yes. many documents in frames that have proved worthless. I'm one of the weirdo's that do not beleive education will get a job (omitting gov't of course).

My bro moved here one month ago. He is now the head of maintenance at a mall. $40 grand a year to start.

He should be getting paid more it sounds.

Every car dealer in town is looking for sales reps.

Delearships are always hiring sales reps. Just like futureshop is always hiring sales reps.

Every roofer in town is looking for labourers.

It's always been like that.

Let's talk about office white collar jobs that pay +$52,000 that are in super demand.. i guess there must be a lot of them right?

And yes, every Timmy's in town is looking for coffee slingers. (Because those who used to sling coffee have moved on to better jobs.)

Maybe they should pay more to their employees?

I kick your ass if you are on welfare. There is no excuse not to work.

Me on welfare? lol.. i don't think so.

But you are willingly defending people who come here and basically use public services.

Suuuure bud.

[jdobbin]

Nice try.

Seniors being sponsored in are now no longer required to take English testing. Volpe did this to grasp for votres nearing the end of the election so that rule has been changed.

If you are marrying or common low then you don't need to speak english at all. Lol.. I mean your being rediculous.. Have you been a china town?

And there are exceptionsto the rules about the 3-10 years.

And don't you dare tell me that they pay the gov't to do so becasue at the end of the day we spend 2.5 billion on immigration. They DO PAY fees yes, but we pay 2.5B to fund the dept. And Harper and Dion will keep lifting fees to get votes.

You know, you don't really understand the demographics of your own country. You don't understand why the Liberals are even sitting in Parlement. You don't understand the real reasons why the Liberals are ahead in the polls.

You really have your head in the sand when it comes to your own country.

Citations for any of this, please. I simply don't believe you. You still don't have stats for 500,000 illegals.

It is hard not to believe this is anything but a vendetta against immigration. When did your family come to the country? Why are you so determined to close the door after yourself?

[Saturn]

That's economics from a book Saturn. In the real world, there is another dimension to monopoly pricing... keeping that price reasonable enough to prevent the government from forcing it's hand.

Microeconomics is done in the absence of irrational thought which is generally the will of the people. In the real world it doesn't turn out that way, at least not in the short term.

There are many dimensions to everything and in the real world people do whatever they believe is best for them and whatever they think they can get away with. In this case, the medical associations have positioned themselves well to get away with quite a bit. I just find it rediculous when people are so inconsistent on similar issues and will argue on different sides simply for ideological reasons.

haha

unreal. If you have a grad degree in Economics then it's high time you got out of school and experienced some reality. It is obvious you are up to your eyeballs in theory! Those damn medical associations running a conspiracy! I mean if only the Dr's WANTED to help us then the system would work! Holy cow! That's freaking awesome!

The internet is awesome! You are awesome!

In the real world getting a 10% increase in heath-care for a 60% increase in cost is bad value for money. In your world it's a good deal. Something's wrong with your reality.

[Saturn]

I don't know where you live, August, but if you wander through a public housing project in Toronto, Ottawa or Montreal you're going to hear very little English or French.

Are they refugees or immigrants? If they are immigrants, they are required to speak English or French. They also require to have a doctor's examination.

If an immigrant sponsors a relative in, they have to pay the government to do so. They are also on the hook for three to ten years for their financial needs.

Nice try.

Seniors being sponsored in are now no longer required to take English testing. Volpe did this to grasp for votres nearing the end of the election so that rule has been changed.

If you are marrying or common low then you don't need to speak english at all. Lol.. I mean your being rediculous.. Have you been a china town?

And there are exceptionsto the rules about the 3-10 years.

And don't you dare tell me that they pay the gov't to do so becasue at the end of the day we spend 2.5 billion on immigration. They DO PAY fees yes, but we pay 2.5B to fund the dept. And Harper and Dion will keep lifting fees to get votes.

You know, you don't really understand the demographics of your own country. You don't understand why the Liberals are even sitting in Parlement. You don't understand the real reasons why the Liberals are ahead in the polls.

You really have your head in the sand when it comes to your own country.

You are so fixated on immigration, you should sit down, write a letter to the PM and tell him to kick out those foreign-born evils from his caucus and the country, starting with:

Rahim Jaffer, Alberta Conservative - came to Canada as a refugee from Uganda

Diane Ablonczy, Alberta Conservative

Tony Clement, Ontario Conservative and Minister of Health

Steven Fletcher, Manitoba Conservative

Nina Grewal, British Columbia Conservative

Inky Mark, Manitoba Conservative

Deepak Obhrai, Alberta Conservative

Daniel Petit, Quebec Conservative

Myron Thompson, Alberta Conservative

Vic Toews, Manitoba Conservative

John Williams, Alberta Conservative

Then sit down and write a letter to Tony Clement demanding that foreign-born people not be eligible for health-care.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/parliame...ml#foreign-born

[jdobbin]

You are so fixated on immigration, you should sit down a nice letter to the PM and tell him to kick out those foreign-born evils from his caucus and the country, starting with:

Rahim Jaffer, Alberta Conservative - came to Canada as a refugee from Uganda

Diane Ablonczy, Alberta Conservative

Tony Clement, Ontario Conservative and Minister of Health

Steven Fletcher, Manitoba Conservative

Nina Grewal, British Columbia Conservative

Inky Mark, Manitoba Conservative

Deepak Obhrai, Alberta Conservative

Daniel Petit, Quebec Conservative

Myron Thompson, Alberta Conservative

Vic Toews, Manitoba Conservative

John Williams, Alberta Conservative

Then sit down and write a letter to Tony Clement demanding that foreign-born people not be eligible for health-care.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/parliame...ml#foreign-born

Good job. I hope none of these guys has dual citizenship either while you're at it.

[mikedavid00]

Citations for any of this, please. I simply don't believe you. You still don't have stats for 500,000 illegals.

It is hard not to believe this is anything but a vendetta against immigration. When did your family come to the country? Why are you so determined to close the door after yourself?

Maybe you should look this up. It's too time consuming to look all these things up and keep proving myself right.

Yes I have a problem with our current immigration system because it's way outdated, too leanient, and is around just to sacure political votes for a single party of Canada, of which, to now suprise, is the most succesful poltical franchise in history.

I hope when Harper wins the next minority gov't he gives immigrant families anohter $100 so he can win Ontario and BC. Then he'll be in a majority where he can slam the breaks on immigrantion and completely reform the system.

Keep in mind that Monte Solberg was the critic for Finance. That's obviously important. But he was placed as Minister of Immigration. Think about it.

[jdobbin]

Maybe you should look this up. It's too time consuming to look all these things up and keep proving myself right.

Yes I have a problem with our current immigration system because it's way outdated, too leanient, and is around just to sacure political votes for a single party of Canada, of which, to now suprise, is the most succesful poltical franchise in history.

I hope when Harper wins the next minority gov't he gives immigrant families anohter $100 so he can win Ontario and BC. Then he'll be in a majority where he can slam the breaks on immigrantion and completely reform the system.

Keep in mind that Monte Solberg was the critic for Finance. That's obviously important. But he was placed as Minister of Immigration. Think about it.

But you never do prove yourself right. You state figures that you can't back up like the 500,000 illegals statement. You say that immigrants are responsible for the increases in healthcare. Does that include the dozen or so Conservative immigrants in Parliament now? Either you completely back up your claim or admit that it is just an opinion.

As for your thoughts on Harper getting a majority, the latest Ipso poll has now got the Liberals headed for that.

[guyser]

Tad pessimistic are you?

Every sector -- from roofers to managers to nurses to shit shovellers and chicken catchers. We need people!

Roofing is low paying labor that is always in demand. Call any roofing, moving, or landscaping company and your hired.

Experienced seniors and mangement positions are always in demand. These positions are usually very hard to find the right person for and don't apply to most of it. Find a non senior medical supply sales rep and it will take 6 months to find someone. These positions are always around but don't apply to the masses.

What do you want? Are you educated?

Yes. many documents in frames that have proved worthless. I'm one of the weirdo's that do not beleive education will get a job (omitting gov't of course).

My bro moved here one month ago. He is now the head of maintenance at a mall. $40 grand a year to start.

He should be getting paid more it sounds.

Every car dealer in town is looking for sales reps.

Delearships are always hiring sales reps. Just like futureshop is always hiring sales reps.

Every roofer in town is looking for labourers.

It's always been like that.

Let's talk about office white collar jobs that pay +$52,000 that are in super demand.. i guess there must be a lot of them right?

And yes, every Timmy's in town is looking for coffee slingers. (Because those who used to sling coffee have moved on to better jobs.)

Maybe they should pay more to their employees?

I kick your ass if you are on welfare. There is no excuse not to work.

Me on welfare? lol.. i don't think so.

But you are willingly defending people who come here and basically use public services.

Suuuure bud.

Boy you sure are irksome. Drea, in response to your question of there being any jobs, provides you with a quick list and you have the gall to mock the jobs offered. You said there were no jobs available. Drea provides a list, you say they are always hiring. So which is it? Are there no jobs or just none that appeal to your hightened expectations in lieu of your lack of any skills set?

Well now I know you aren't an immigrant, because an immigrant would at least have the decency to say thank you and when do I start? Because generally they want to start anew, get working and see where it takes them , be it up the ladder or opens a door to something else.

But no, you have to virtually crap on all the jobs mentioned.

But I think we all understand where you are coming from. You want a white collar "professional" job that pays in excess of $52,000 , and anything below that mark is not worthy of your employ.

Your sense of entitlement is now beginning to sound like jealousy in that you see immigrants working and achieving , buying homes and making a better life while your seems to be stuck because no one has knocked on your door to offer you $52,000+ per annum.

Let me make something perfectly clear.

YOU, yes mikedavid, YOU are the problem with this country. Shame you were born here as you contribute nothing but whining, sanctimonious and ridiculous assertions as to what is wrong with healthcare and immigrants in this country.

Judging by your writings and your ability to debate in an intelligent manner methinks you would have a hard time doing any job.

It must drive you nuts to see immigrants who landed only a few short years ago doing better than you. I can sense your outrage. But hard work pays off and most of the immigrants that come here do so.

You are entitled to absolutely nothing in this life. None of us are.

Stop your whining , go back to school if necessary , and quit being a whiny Canadian born .

There is more , but your pathetic jealousy consumes any remaining brain cells needed to understand.

[mikedavid00]

When did your family come to the country?

My family came from Lebannon (yes it's ok to laugh). Christian Lebanese where amongst the first large refugee claimants into Canada. Back then though, if you could afford airfare, you were very well to do. So over the years anyone who had money came to the Canada or the USA because of the war.

However, our family is NOT FROM THIS BATCH.

My grandfather came in the 1950's where anyone could pretty much come to Canada as long as you had money. He arrange married my grandmother from Lebannon.

HE ALSO CAME WHEN HE WAS 23, JOINED THE MILITARY AND FAUGHT IN WORLD WAR 2, RECEIVED MEDALS OF HONOUR, OPENED A BUSINESS AND EMPLOYED CANADIANS, MADE HIS MILLIONS, AND HELPED THE ECONOMY.

HE DIDN'T COME FROM PAKISTAN, GET COACHED BY AN IMMIGRATION CONSULTANT, LIE ON HIS APPLICATION, USE FREE HEALTHCARE, HAVE 5 KIDS AND COLLECT $500 PER CHILD, AND PROMISE TO VOTE LIBERAL IN EXCHANGE FOR BEING LET INTO THE COUNTRY.

THAT'S THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN REAL CANADIANS LIKE HIM AND THE NEW AGE LIBERAL FRANCHISE IMMIGRANT.

And you know what? Both him and his wife never went back to Lebanon once.

They never used welfare, and they came at a time when the country was building up and skies were the limit - BUT YOU HAD TO DO YOUR PART TO HELP.

We are not in that climate and we need to desperately, desperatly REFORM IMMIGRATION.

(i had some glasses of wine tonight

[guyser]

Sure your lips aren't around the whole barrel?

Which is it? Did your grandpa come in the 50's or not. He came here and then went back in time to fight in WW2?

Step away from the bottle.

[Argus]

Jdobbin, consider the wording used, then consider the source. The government is always going to try and put the best light on whatever it does. The wording chosen only proves that 80% of immigrants worked for at least one day over the last two years. It says nothing about what the percentage is working at any given time, or whether the work is of any substantial use. Note the following from the cite: At 104 weeks, or two years after arrival, the employment rate among prime working-age immigrants was 63%, 18 percentage points below the national rate of 81%.

So by your own cite, even among the most highly skilled immigrants selected for their language and employment skills, the unemployment rate was 10%. And only half found the work in the area of their specialization. In other words, the other half were engineers driving cabs and waiting on tables - and thus not contributing economically to the extent their taxes outweighed their demands on the system.

I also take into account that this report deals with numbers from 2001-2002, a period where there was considerable fall-out from September 11 and SARs.

In many provinces, the government is looking to break the logjam that prevents qualified foreign doctors from getting internships and residencies. Likewise, there is a problem getting engineering and other professional qualifications either recognized or finding placements for within the association frameworks.

This argument that immigrants account for the the largest share of costs within Canada's health system just doesn't seem to jibe.

I never made that argument. I said they seemed likely to be one of the factors at play, though.

Consider a news report I heard less than an hour ago on Global television from Toronto. It was talking about food banks and the shortage of donations. It said that a few years ago 1/4 of "newcomers to Canada" used food banks. But now it's estimated to be 1/3rd. If one third of immigrants are using food banks that does not speak well of their economic success in Canada.

[Argus]

I don't know where you live, August, but if you wander through a public housing project in Toronto, Ottawa or Montreal you're going to hear very little English or French.

Are they refugees or immigrants? If they are immigrants, they are required to speak English or French. They also require to have a doctor's examination.

Refugees ARE immigrants, except with fewer standards. And perhaps you have to pass a simple test in basic English or French, but that doesn't mean they speak it very well, and it certainly doesn't mean they speak it at home. As for medical examinations, I've seen plenty of exceptions made.

If an immigrant sponsors a relative in, they have to pay the government to do so. They are also on the hook for three to ten years for their financial needs.

No, they have to SAY that they will be on the hook. If they fail to pay even 1 day after the immigrant arrives the government picks up the tab. It does not send the immigrant back home. There is no enforcement mechanism.

[Argus]

But you never do prove yourself right. You state figures that you can't back up like the 500,000 illegals statement.

Most of the cites I found put it at around 200,000

As for your thoughts on Harper getting a majority, the latest Ipso poll has now got the Liberals headed for that.

Everyone in the world knew the Liberals would get a big bump due to the massive favourable coverage of their nomination. It wouldn't have mattered who they chose. They chose someone new. Over the next few months Dion will cease to be a novelty, and people will start to know what his policies and beliefs are. I expect the polls to shift back.

It is interesting how the Tory numbers have held up so well compared to the NDP numbers however. Support for Layton and his party seem to have collapsed.

[jdobbin]

My family came from Lebannon (yes it's ok to laugh). Christian Lebanese where amongst the first large refugee claimants into Canada. Back then though, if you could afford airfare, you were very well to do. So over the years anyone who had money came to the Canada or the USA because of the war.

Your family history is not so different form many others. Not everyone lies on the immigration application. Not everyone collects welfare or is here for a heart transplant.

If there are solutions to healthcare in Canada, I don't think they lie in slamming the door on immigration. For western Canada, at the very least, it would be a disaster. Manitoba's population would collapse quite literally. Alberta and B.C. would have no one to even operate a variety of businesses.

Are there improvements to make in immigration? Sure. Some say immigration made Canada the country it is today. That country is successful.

[jdobbin]

Refugees ARE immigrants, except with fewer standards. And perhaps you have to pass a simple test in basic English or French, but that doesn't mean they speak it very well, and it certainly doesn't mean they speak it at home. As for medical examinations, I've seen plenty of exceptions made.

No, they have to SAY that they will be on the hook. If they fail to pay even 1 day after the immigrant arrives the government picks up the tab. It does not send the immigrant back home. There is no enforcement mechanism.

Refugees are generally people who are in more dire straights that others. I don't see how putting a stop to them coming into Canada will prevent them from coming anyway.

I haven't heard of exemptions being made for health. I know that if you have AIDS or a costly health problem, you just don't meet the standards of immigration. I'd have to see evidence to think otherwise.

There is quite a lot of money of front for sponsorship as well. And they government does collect what is owed to it. Once again, I'd have to see evidence that they don't. I'm sure a Conservative MP who heard about the government writing off collecting would holler to the skies.

[jdobbin]

Most of the cites I found put it at around 200,000

Everyone in the world knew the Liberals would get a big bump due to the massive favourable coverage of their nomination. It wouldn't have mattered who they chose. They chose someone new. Over the next few months Dion will cease to be a novelty, and people will start to know what his policies and beliefs are. I expect the polls to shift back.

It is interesting how the Tory numbers have held up so well compared to the NDP numbers however. Support for Layton and his party seem to have collapsed.

200,000 is a far more believable number by far.

And I've already indicated that the first polls are going to be anything but reliable about what Dion's actual support is. My opinion is that it is probably the same and no better than the election results.

In other words, an election would result in a minority again. I just don't know for who. It is that close within the margin of error.

[mikedavid00]

Sure your lips aren't around the whole barrel?

Which is it? Did your grandpa come in the 50's or not. He came here and then went back in time to fight in WW2?

Step away from the bottle.

Actually he came in the 40's. He was in the Navy and would tell stories about how when some ships got hit, they would have the ability to patch themselves up so they wouldn't sink. That's all I remember about those stories..

But fine if you don't want to beleive me.

[Argus]

Refugees ARE immigrants, except with fewer standards. And perhaps you have to pass a simple test in basic English or French, but that doesn't mean they speak it very well, and it certainly doesn't mean they speak it at home. As for medical examinations, I've seen plenty of exceptions made.

No, they have to SAY that they will be on the hook. If they fail to pay even 1 day after the immigrant arrives the government picks up the tab. It does not send the immigrant back home. There is no enforcement mechanism.

Refugees are generally people who are in more dire straights that others. I don't see how putting a stop to them coming into Canada will prevent them from coming anyway.

What we need to do is weed out the legitimate political refugees and send the rest back. Most of them are not "in more dire straights" they're just eager to jump the queue. Most of our refugees arrive from places like Germany, France, Spain, and the United States.

I haven't heard of exemptions being made for health. I know that if you have AIDS or a costly health problem, you just don't meet the standards of immigration. I'd have to see evidence to think otherwise.

Well, first off, refugees aren't turned down due to being HIV positive.

link

Second, there are numerous exemptions for HIV. People are turned down due to HIV mainly if they are deemed likely to produce an undue burden on health care resources. Not, oddly enough, because they are a danger to the public. However, skilled workers can challenge this, and as for family class, well, spouses, common law partners, and children are exempt. And they represent the great majority of immigrants. Have a look at all the loopholes.

Overview of HIV policy for immigrants

[jdobbin]

What we need to do is weed out the legitimate political refugees and send the rest back. Most of them are not "in more dire straights" they're just eager to jump the queue. Most of our refugees arrive from places like Germany, France, Spain, and the United States.

Well, first off, refugees aren't turned down due to being HIV positive.

link

Second, there are numerous exemptions for HIV. People are turned down due to HIV mainly if they are deemed likely to produce an undue burden on health care resources. Not, oddly enough, because they are a danger to the public. However, skilled workers can challenge this, and as for family class, well, spouses, common law partners, and children are exempt. And they represent the great majority of immigrants. Have a look at all the loopholes.

Overview of HIV policy for immigrants

You'll have no argument from me that illegitimate refugees need to be screened out.

Refugees have always fallen outside the provisions. However, the government is challenging people who claim refugee status because of HIV/AIDs.

I have never heard of anyone allowed to immigrate with the aim of becoming a citizen getting an exemption if they had AIDs.

[mikedavid00]

What we need to do is weed out the legitimate political refugees and send the rest back. Most of them are not "in more dire straights" they're just eager to jump the queue. Most of our refugees arrive from places like Germany, France, Spain, and the United States.

Well, first off, refugees aren't turned down due to being HIV positive.

link

Second, there are numerous exemptions for HIV. People are turned down due to HIV mainly if they are deemed likely to produce an undue burden on health care resources. Not, oddly enough, because they are a danger to the public. However, skilled workers can challenge this, and as for family class, well, spouses, common law partners, and children are exempt. And they represent the great majority of immigrants. Have a look at all the loopholes.

Overview of HIV policy for immigrants

You'll have no argument from me that illegitimate refugees need to be screened out.

Refugees have always fallen outside the provisions. However, the government is challenging people who claim refugee status because of HIV/AIDs.

I have never heard of anyone allowed to immigrate with the aim of becoming a citizen getting an exemption if they had AIDs.

I guess you haven't heard:

"One hundred and thirty-seven delegates to last month's International AIDS Conference in Toronto have claimed refugee status in Canada."

This was big news here at the time.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2006/09/01/aids-refugee.html

[jdobbin]

I guess you haven't heard:

"One hundred and thirty-seven delegates to last month's International AIDS Conference in Toronto have claimed refugee status in Canada."

This was big news here at the time.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2006/09/01/aids-refugee.html

And the government is challenging them.

[mikedavid00]

I guess you haven't heard:

"One hundred and thirty-seven delegates to last month's International AIDS Conference in Toronto have claimed refugee status in Canada."

This was big news here at the time.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2006/09/01/aids-refugee.html

And the government is challenging them.

It doesn't matter. They are getting free healthcare services right now which we are all paying for at least a year.

What don't you understand about that?

[jdobbin]

It doesn't matter. They are getting free healthcare services right now which we are all paying for at least a year.

What don't you understand about that?

What I don't understand is you saying that it is a major contributing factor to increases costs in Canada's healthcare. It isn't. No one aside from you says that it is.