How do we fix Canada's Healthcare crisis?

[Saturn]

I still say that a public system is possible in Canada, but not with 300,000 people a year entering in the country and with 70% of those being family sponsored.

Gee, are you telling me that I can't have children because they will use your health care system. Your argument seems to go around some evil newcomers (like newborns) who are ruining your health-care, education and your entire life it seems. How about retirees? They use health-care far more than anyone else and they are not productive at all. They are just a burden, so should we kill them off? I find your whole train of logic very confusing.

[Saturn]

Governments capped their numbers under pressure from the medical associations. I'm not saying that there isn't certain amount of collusion there but the public isn't putting pressure on governments to increase the number of doctors, so governments are unlikely to do it. On top of that the public is demanding that we pay less for health-care, which makes it difficult for governments to afford more doctors (without pissing off the medical associations). So really, it comes down to what we want and what we are willing to push for.

It was done in many provinces by cutting numbers of medical graduates in a cost saving measure. They found there was a hidden cost in that.

Well, we always want cost savings without consideration for what happens in the long run. Can you blame governments for giving us what we want and what we vote for?

[mikedavid00]

Actually I think I'm the only one that presented numbers and a real world argument. We are letting people use a system that did not pay into it, thus it's small and underfunded for the amount of people using it. It's not just the sniffles, it's triple bypass surgeries and other treatments.

We are in a crisis situation.

For my sake then, where are those numbers?

No one has real numbers. I presented wait time numbers, people outside the country, and people entering the country each year.

[mikedavid00]

Coronary surgery meets all acceptable benchmarks Canada wide.

Not true.

There is an average of 62 days for a ctitical bypass surgery in Ontario. I just looked it up.

[gc1765]

For instance, if there is a waiting list of 8 months for a surgery, to cut that in half would require almost double the expendatures in healthcare. That would mean half of all current gov't expendatures would go to healthcare.

Well, no. It would cost more money, yes, but it wouldn't cost nearly twice as much.

Are we all ready to accept privatized healthcare yet?

I would support a two-tier system. I think it's pretty ridiculous that you could be dying or ill and the government tells you you're not allowed to pay someone to cure you.

[jdobbin]

No one has real numbers. I presented wait time numbers, people outside the country, and people entering the country each year.

Which means nothing. I could present natives coming to cities, wait times in rural hospitals and full moons but until it has been connected by clinical research, it means zero.

[jdobbin]

Coronary surgery meets all acceptable benchmarks Canada wide.

Not true.

There is an average of 62 days for a ctitical bypass surgery in Ontario. I just looked it up.

"Disgruntled Docs Go Out of Network

Hundreds of pissed off MDs gathered at a seminar in New York recently to find a way to beat the healthcare system, specifically the managed care system that they say underpays, overmanages and cheats both doctors and patients. New York has the highest percentage of doctors per patient in the U.S., 328 per 100,000 versus the national average of 281 per 100,000, and the highest concentration of world class hospitals. It's a good place to be a patient, but apparently a lousy place to run a medical practice."

http://in3.typepad.com/hnbic/patient_care/index.html

HMOs can take up to 60 days to approve bypass in the U.S.

[Saturn]

For instance, if there is a waiting list of 8 months for a surgery, to cut that in half would require almost double the expendatures in healthcare. That would mean half of all current gov't expendatures would go to healthcare.

Well, no. It would cost more money, yes, but it wouldn't cost nearly twice as much.

Are we all ready to accept privatized healthcare yet?

I would support a two-tier system. I think it's pretty ridiculous that you could be dying or ill and the government tells you you're not allowed to pay someone to cure you.

Most of us live within 100km of the US, so you can always go to the US if you want to pay. If you really want to be treated in Canada, then you should pay for the health-care system you want. You can't expect tax cuts and better health-care at the same time. Better health-care costs more money, not less.

[mikedavid00]

I still say that a public system is possible in Canada, but not with 300,000 people a year entering in the country and with 70% of those being family sponsored.

Gee, are you telling me that I can't have children because they will use your health care system. Your argument seems to go around some evil newcomers (like newborns) who are ruining your health-care, education and your entire life it seems. How about retirees? They use health-care far more than anyone else and they are not productive at all. They are just a burden, so should we kill them off? I find your whole train of logic very confusing.

You don't understand the bigger picture.

Healthcare is meant to be paid into your whole life. When you are young, you are at little risk or need of using the system. When you are older, you will most likely use the system more. If you need a surgery and physio therapy, then it's costs in the tens of thousands.

Suppose you make $40,000 a year. $334 of the taxes you pay from that money each month goes towards healthcare. When you are young, you are less likely to use the system. When you are older, you are more likely.

Suppose you pay $334 a month for 40 years, that would be a total of $160,320 that you have paid into the system.

For instance, I have paid about $80,000 into the system so far in my life. I will most likely be using it when I am elderly.

The system works under these circumstances. This is why the Euro systems work.

What DOESN'T WORK, is when a family arrives from Pakistan, sponsors in their elderly mother who has never paid into the system, and then gets her hip replaced. This clogs up our system and costs us money. Thus, the money we have paid into the system is now paying for a foreign national to get healtchare. Many poeple are also getting accepted as borderline elderly. That means we are letting in people under the point system that are in their 50's and near ritrement. My fiance had relatives from India arrive and are living in our city. I saw pictures and coundn't understand why we would let in aging people in their late 50's to come live here. We allow peoples disabled or special needs children to come here also. This is an extreme burden on our system that you and I both pay for.

This is why Canada's system does not work. You have to be born here or pay into it for at least 20 years before you should be able to use it.

There are 800,000 people that are on a waiting list to get into our country. You can't pretend that this has no side effects.

Here. Why not read how lax our system and what a single political party has done to our country:

"I entered Canada without a valid passport or travel document. Can I apply for permanent residence under the spouse or common-law partner in Canada class?

Yes. You can apply under the spouse or common-law partner in Canada class. However, you must obtain a valid passport or travel documents before CIC will grant you permanent residence."

Why not read through this site and learn a bit about your own country you live in:

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/newcomer/fact_health.html

[Saturn]

Some stats on OECD countries:

Country Health care as % of GDP Practising Physicians per 1000 pop'n

United States 15.3 2.4

Switzerland 11.6 3.8

Germany 10.6 3.4

France 10.5 3.4

Iceland 10.2 3.6

Portugal 10.1 3.4

Greece 10 4.9

Canada 9.9 2.1

Norway 9.7 3.5

Australia 9.6

Austria 9.6 3.5

Netherlands 9.2 3.6

Sweden 9.1

Denmark 8.9

Italy 8.7 4.2

New Zealand 8.4

Spain 8.1 3.4

United Kingdom 8.1 2.3

Hungary 8 3.3

Luxembourg 8 2.8

Turkey 7.7

Finland 7.5 2.4

Czech Republic 7.3 3.5

Ireland 7.1 2.8

Mexico 6.5 1.6

Poland 6.5 2.3

Korea 5.6 1.6

Belgium 4

Japan 2

Slovak Republic 3.1

http://www.oecd.org/document/16/0,2340,en_...1_1_1_1,00.html

Note that Canada is near the middle on expenditures on health-care as % of GDP but we have the third lowest number of practising physicians in the OECD.

France for example is close to Canada in terms of expenditure but has 60% more physicians, even though as noted earlier French physicians make under $60K/year compared to Canadian physicians who make about 3 times as much on average.

Americans spend 60% more than we do on health-care and have only 14% more physicians.

So the above data suggests that we need more doctors, not more private health care.

[mikedavid00]

Most of us live within 100km of the US, so you can always go to the US if you want to pay. If you really want to be treated in Canada, then you should pay for the health-care system you want. You can't expect tax cuts and better health-care at the same time. Better health-care costs more money, not less.

Most poeple are willing to work for an employer that will pay 90% of a private health plan or include it all together. Some even may pay the $400 a month as long as the gov't rebates a portion of these payments.

However, not a lot of people can cough up an instant $50,000 on travelling and treatments to the US. Only the very wealthy can do this.

[jdobbin]

"I entered Canada without a valid passport or travel document. Can I apply for permanent residence under the spouse or common-law partner in Canada class?

Yes. You can apply under the spouse or common-law partner in Canada class. However, you must obtain a valid passport or travel documents before CIC will grant you permanent residence."

Why not read through this site and learn a bit about your own country you live in:

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/newcomer/fact_health.html

You've shown no data that immigrants use the healthcare system more than other Canadians. Where is the data? You draw conclusions without evidence.

It's like me saying that crime is higher wherever there is more trees. I can give facts on trees and I can facts on crime. What I can't do is link them without research.

[jdobbin]

Most poeple are willing to work for an employer that will pay 90% of a private health plan or include it all together. Some even may pay the $400 a month as long as the gov't rebates a portion of these payments.

Citation?

[gc1765]

Most of us live within 100km of the US, so you can always go to the US if you want to pay. If you really want to be treated in Canada, then you should pay for the health-care system you want. You can't expect tax cuts and better health-care at the same time. Better health-care costs more money, not less.

Your argument against two-tier health care is that we already have two-tier health care? If we already have two-tier health care, then let me ask you, why would anyone be opposed to two-tier health care? Why would anyone be opposed to something we already have and can't prevent anyhow?

[Saturn]

This is why Canada's system does not work. You have to be born here or pay into it for at least 20 years before you should be able to use it.

People use the largest amound of health-care services at the beginning and the end of their lives. I was born in a hospital, I got tonnes of immunizations as a child and paid many visits to the family doctor (babies have to go regularly for check-ups), all of which must have cost quite a bit of money and I sure didn't pay into the health-care system for 20 years prior to that.

I'm not sure why elderly people should be allowed into the country unless they bring a lot of money (like wealthy immigrants from Hong Kong). This seems like something that should not be allowed. But I still think that it is not the elderly immigrants who are the problem with our health-care system. Sure they add to the problems but I think that our health-care system has a lot more and bigger problems than that.

But the majority of immigrants have university degrees, work in Canada for many years (and pay into the health-care system) and also bring children who are more likely to go to university than Canadian born children and will contribute to our society all life long.

In fact, we don't need the immigrants themselves as much as we need their children. Because our own population pyramid doesn't look like a pyramid at all - it's more of a rhombus than a pyramid. We need a large number of young people to take over as the babyboom generation retires. But we don't have enough children in the right age group as we need. So what we want is immigrants in their 30's with as many school age children as possible. Or well educated immgrants in their early 20s. The reason we have to do it now is because if we don't do it 200,000/year now, we'll have to do it a million per year in 10 years time and that's just not feasible.

[mikedavid00]

Most poeple are willing to work for an employer that will pay 90% of a private health plan or include it all together. Some even may pay the $400 a month as long as the gov't rebates a portion of these payments.

Citation?

Years back I went into a very deep thread on this issue and it was extrememly time consuming digging up reasearch. The result was most Canadians learning alot about the US 2 tier system and agreed it was the best in the world. Most all companies except McDonalds and other minimum wage jobs offer healthcare plans. Even Wal-Mart offers a plan for $25 a month. Rememer, I'm paying about $334 a month out of my pocket vs. $25 for a Wal-Mart employee. Walmart is picking up the tab for their own employees benefit as to where I have to pay out of my pocket to sponsor surgeries for foreign nationals that do not reside in this country:

If you don't beleive me, take a look:

http://money.cnn.com/2005/10/24/news/fortu...hcare/index.htm

"Monthly premiums will be, on average, less than $25 for an individual, $37 for a single parent and $65 for a family. The $11 premium, for individuals, will be available in a handful of areas, Fogleman told the Times. "

[allsorts]

We are still turning people away, people still are not getting the treatment they deserve, but we are protecting union jobs....well that isn't much comfort to those who can't get timely treatment. I think it is time for people to recognize that it was and should still be universal Health, not union health.

Well firstly when you have an abundance of people entering the country and using a system that have not paid into it, eventually it will catch up and now it has. Those mentioned European countries on the top of the list do not have mass immigration.

It's a win/win for everyone at this point if we open up private hospitals. I think actually 30% of all Canadians would leave the public system within 10 years thus reducing the waiting lines and improving healthcare for those that need to use the public system.

I used to be extremely against 2 tier systems because it meant that a person with more money gets better treatment that everyone else.

Now being older and matured, I realize the destruction that needless, mass immigration has done to our country. As long as Canadians want to plug their ears up when the topic of immigrations comes up, non of our problems will ever get fixed.

I agree...I used to be of the same mindset but, if people can and are willing to pay for immediate health care and it is more accessible thus less expensive, perhaps it will inevitably take the strain off the system and reduce waiting periods.

[Saturn]

Most of us live within 100km of the US, so you can always go to the US if you want to pay. If you really want to be treated in Canada, then you should pay for the health-care system you want. You can't expect tax cuts and better health-care at the same time. Better health-care costs more money, not less.

Your argument against two-tier health care is that we already have two-tier health care? If we already have two-tier health care, then let me ask you, why would anyone be opposed to two-tier health care? Why would anyone be opposed to something we already have and can't prevent anyhow?

Because Americans pay 60% more for a health-care system that doesn't work either. Because the cost of health-care is a very serious problem for US employers and doing the same in Canada will push more of our jobs into China where health care is free. Because more Amercans declare bankruptsy because of health-care bills than anything else. Improving health care doesn't mean that you have to throw your money away. We pay plenty as it is. The right solution is to take the medical associations monopoly over health care away, not to pay more for nothing. It is the shortage of doctors that is imposed on us by the medical associations that is the problem, not the lack of private health-care. Heck, the doctors' offices are private businesses as it is. It's the shortage of these private businesses that causes the problem. This shortage results from the fact that every damn province has one and only one association that lets people into the health-care business. That's a damn monopoly that doesn't want us to have enough doctors. Hell, most developed countries have far more doctors than we do and they also have a lower proportion of private health-care in their systems.

[mikedavid00]

You've shown no data that immigrants use the healthcare system more than other Canadians. Where is the data? You draw conclusions without evidence.

I didn't say they used it more, I said that they have used it when they have not paid into it their whole lives like we have. This is the sole reason why we have a deteriorating healthcare system in crisis.

It's like me saying that crime is higher wherever there is more trees. I can give facts on trees and I can facts on crime. What I can't do is link them without research.

CBS NEWS RECOGNIZES THESE FACTS, WHY DON"T YOU??? A MUST READ:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/03/20/...html?cmp=EM8705

"In 1984 Parliament passed the Canada Health Act, which affirmed the federal government's commitment to provide mostly free health care to all, including the 200,000 immigrants arriving each year".

[gc1765]

Because Americans pay 60% more for a health-care system that doesn't work either.

Please explain how a few people paying for private health care in Canada, rather than going to the U.S., is going to cost 60% more...if that is indeed what you are trying to argue.

Because the cost of health-care is a very serious problem for US employers and doing the same in Canada will push more of our jobs into China where health care is free. Because more Amercans declare bankruptsy because of health-care bills than anything else.

All of this is assuming that people won't still have access to public health care. I'm not talking about private health care like in the U.S. (aside from medicare/medicaid). I'm saying people will have a choice. They can stay in the public system if they want.

Improving health care doesn't mean that you have to throw your money away. We pay plenty as it is. The right solution is to take the medical associations monopoly over health care away, not to pay more for nothing. It is the shortage of doctors that is imposed on us by the medical associations that is the problem, not the lack of private health-care. Heck, the doctors' offices are private businesses as it is. It's the shortage of these private businesses that causes the problem. This shortage results from the fact that every damn province has one and only one association that lets people into the health-care business. That's a damn monopoly that doesn't want us to have enough doctors. Hell, most developed countries have far more doctors than we do and they also have a lower proportion of private health-care in their systems.

Sure, do you want to pay for the extra doctors? How about giving people the choice to pay more for more doctors or not. Actually, I wouldn't be so opposed to keeping health care private if there was better service (less wait times). That would cost a lot more money though, and I wouldn't mind paying more taxes if it went to something important like health care (not sure how the rest of Canada feels about that). But with the current system we have, where people are suffering on waitlists, it is ridiculous to not allow them to pay for treatment.

[guyser]

mikedavid, you have been asked and asked to back up your assertions and yet nothing seems to materialize.

Why is that? Perhaps there are no facts to back you up? Anecdotal empiracal data please...not just some guy I know.

Lets get this off the table right now. Under immigration rules, one can "try " to sponsor an elderly relative but they must present themselves for an interview. So if this "Pakistani mother" is deemed unhealthy enough to live in Canada instead of moving for health convenience, then the sponsor is denied.

Another one of yours...."20 years paid into the health service before you get treatment". Why do you believe that? I know you are unaware that Insurance Companies, like the one that insures your car, pays into OHIP. So, in fact if an "immigrant" (you know those horrible people you dont like) gets a car policy, he has paid. Has your child been told no health care coverage because he is 19 ? Would you like that?

The "sole" reason health care is in crisis is because of immigrants. You said that...?....but you cannot possibly believe it. Show me where that has been investigated. The US has immigration problems, and they are creating an undue hardship on the health care system there. I said this before, stop reading american news on immigration, it does not relate to us. You must love FOX!

As for those that want US style care.

Here you go, for some (the ones I know-major urban settings) they pay in excess of $700 per month for the family. Junior gets ill . Mom cales their HMO and gets a ruling IF they want to pay for it, or rather if it is covered. Mom is told nope, we do not cover that. Now what?

Do you really want to call a provider and have them answer if you are covered? Not me.

Here is another way the US system works. Let me give it to you this way. At my cottage we have a number of US cottagers. So one day, and I will call her Sarah, had to take her son to the hospital as he was developing a sore ear. (swimmers ear is what we thought) Anyhow, she goes in registers and takes a seat. She will be paying all costs upfront. They call her and her son in and the Doc looks at his ear and goes for a large syringe to flush the ear using hot water. The child is released immediately.

Sarah was surprised that the doc did all the work.

Here is what would have happened in NY state where she lives. Call HMO, get approval, go to hospital and get in line.

Doc comes in, has a nurse bring on hand too. Then another nurse is summoned to bring in a needle filled with warm saline, and the nurse is then allowed to flush the lads ear.

So now Sarah will get an itemized bill showing the Docs time, the nurse(s) time, the needle cost , the saline cost. What is fine with that is it lets one know the costs. But the problem there is that the bill is artificially high due to all the extra people the Doc needs to justify the expense.

Getting an itemized bill is good and I wish we did that in this country. Might make us think before wasting.

She pays $700 a month, her portion of the childs ear infection at the hospital is $350.

Yup, much better.

The circle will continue in Canada if we follow the US plan. An OB/GYN pays $80,000 per year for E&O Ins. In canada he might pay $3000. So who makes up the diff?

We are not as litiginous here in Canada. But that will change if we amend to the US plan.

And if people were "dying" as much as some are saying, well we sure would have heard about it by now. The fact is everyone wants it NOW, instead of when it is right.

Improve , but dont throw the baby out with the bath water

[jdobbin]

Years back I went into a very deep thread on this issue and it was extrememly time consuming digging up reasearch. The result was most Canadians learning alot about the US 2 tier system and agreed it was the best in the world. Most all companies except McDonalds and other minimum wage jobs offer healthcare plans. Even Wal-Mart offers a plan for $25 a month. Rememer, I'm paying about $334 a month out of my pocket vs. $25 for a Wal-Mart employee. Walmart is picking up the tab for their own employees benefit as to where I have to pay out of my pocket to sponsor surgeries for foreign nationals that do not reside in this country:

If you don't beleive me, take a look:

http://money.cnn.com/2005/10/24/news/fortu...hcare/index.htm

"Monthly premiums will be, on average, less than $25 for an individual, $37 for a single parent and $65 for a family. The $11 premium, for individuals, will be available in a handful of areas, Fogleman told the Times. "

From your same article:

It says that half of Wal-Mart employees are not eligible for this.

There are large deductibles for prescriptions and hospital stays.

People categorize it as a "healthy person's plan."

And this is supposed to be the best?

[jdobbin]

I didn't say they used it more, I said that they have used it when they have not paid into it their whole lives like we have. This is the sole reason why we have a deteriorating healthcare system in crisis.

CBS NEWS RECOGNIZES THESE FACTS, WHY DON"T YOU??? A MUST READ:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/03/20/...html?cmp=EM8705

"In 1984 Parliament passed the Canada Health Act, which affirmed the federal government's commitment to provide mostly free health care to all, including the 200,000 immigrants arriving each year".

Children don't pay into the system either. Are they banned from healthcare?

And healthcare is a pay as you go system. It means that taxes pay for healthcare. The majority of immigrants come to Canada and work and pay taxes. Do you have evidence that all 200,000 newcomers each years come to Canada and don't get jobs and pay taxes?

[mikedavid00]

Actually I think I'm the only one that presented numbers and a real world argument. We are letting people use a system that did not pay into it, thus it's small and underfunded for the amount of people using it. It's not just the sniffles, it's triple bypass surgeries and other treatments.

We are in a crisis situation.

For my sake then, where are those numbers?

Lol.. are you denying the fact that we have emergency wiat room times and a waiting list and are in a crisis situation? Are you denying that we have a shortage of organs? Are you denying that a man's wife died from waiting 3 years on a liver transplant list. And her waiting got pushed back and back. The person before her on the list was waiting for only 3 months while the lady who was waiting for 3 years ended up dying.

Are you denying all this?

[guyser]

mikedavid

Pretty much denying it all. Some of it plausible, but when your name is attached to it well then Yes I deny it.

Back it up.

(organs...yes)

You go from one untruth post to another. Stop and refute. Otherwise you risk the ignore rule .

Your call