When Dion whips Harper in the next election.....

mcqueen625 · December 5, 2006

Don't know about that, it'll be the same pissed off you see from westerners during recent history. I wouldn't say whip, I could see the Liberals getting a minority gov't next election, I could also see Harper getting unloaded pretty quick for a more progressive type candidate.

Excellent answer.

I agree, the likely future is a Liberal minority. With an NDP balance of power.

Can't see it, Dion is dispised even in his own province of Quebec. The only place they will get any support is from the stupid people of Ontario, who seem to be still in love with politicians who want to steal them blind, and otherwise waste their tax money on feel-good programs that do absolutely no good. Let's take the gun registry for instance that has not stopped one death by guns, because the criminals for some reason that the Liberals and NDP can't understand just refuse to register their guns. I simply can't figure out why it is that socialist politicians find that so hard to understand.

The last thing Canada needs is another PM from Quebec. Their record of looking after the rest of Canada is abmismal, since their main and only concern seems to making sure Quebec comes first in every decision followed by Ontario. Dion's just another Chretien, who can't seem to grasp the English language, a language by the way that most people in the world understands, and whom many speak. It is not French that the people in Asia are clammering to learn, it is English.

kimmy · December 5, 2006

Funny how the GTA is considered to include all of the suburbs and neighboring communities when people are discussing its population and GDP, and yet the GTA ends at the confines of urban Toronto when people are discussing political representation.

Nice of Saturn to go out of his way to mention all of the traditional stereotypes central-Canadians hold about Albertans (and in doing so, provide a handy illustration of how the stereotypical Ontarion as seen by Albertans.)

Sadly, during my time in Ontario, I found that Saturn's ignorance is actually fairly typical among young Ontarions.

To address the original post...

When Dion whips Harper in the next election.....
...will there be a loud call for Albertan seperation?

I think you have to realize, gerry, that Stephane Dion will not draw flies in Alberta (or anywhere else west of Winnipeg, outside of urban Vancouver.)

And because of that, a lot of people have come to the conclusion that the Liberals have given up on trying to build their representation in the west and are simply going to focus their efforts on recapturing what they've lost in Ontario and Quebec. It seems like Alberta is once again "fly-over territory" for the Liberals (as in, territory that you fly over on your way to Vancouver.)

If the Liberals were interested in the west in general... Dion wouldn't have won. Dion's victory is seen as a sign that the Liberals are going to retreat back to central Canada. That's why people are again mentioning the old Liberal quote "screw the West, we'll take the rest."

It seems like we're in for a renewed focus on regional divisions, and yes, it'll get ugly.

-k

Riverwind · December 5, 2006

If the Liberals were interested in the west in general... Dion wouldn't have won. Dion's victory is seen as a sign that the Liberals are going to retreat back to central Canada. That's why people are again mentioning the old Liberal quote "screw the West, we'll take the rest."

Please explain how the Liberals could have done anything else? Close to 50% of Albertans would drink rat poison before voting for any party that starts with an 'L'. Alberta will be fly over territory for any national political party as long as Albertans continue to wallow in their victim psychosis.

It seems like we're in for a renewed focus on regional divisions, and yes, it'll get ugly.

Divisions because too many Canadians would rather play the victim instead acting like adults. I find it extremely ironic that a group of people who claim to be independent and self reliant are so quick to play the victim card.

MightyAC · December 5, 2006

If the Liberals were interested in the west in general... Dion wouldn't have won. Dion's victory is seen as a sign that the Liberals are going to retreat back to central Canada. That's why people are again mentioning the old Liberal quote "screw the West, we'll take the rest."

I disagree; Mr. Kennedy's strong endorsement of Dion will likely help build support in the west. I also think Harper's policies (Income Trusts, Quebecois a nation, Wheat Board) have weakened the CPC support in the west. The Liberals may not actually win any seats in Alberta but I think their share of the popular vote will rise quite a bit.

Canadian Blue · December 5, 2006

Saturn=Mimas

I'll simply paste what I said in a previous post since Saturn failed to respond.

As for Ralph Klein being swine, he's far better than a certain government that used tax dollars to fund their own election funds and also spend one billion dollars registering gun hunters instead of hiring more police officers.

You don't know much about "average" Albertan's obviously. I'd rather have an "average" individual leading the province than some intellectual snob who thinks he know's everything, and is God's personal gift to earth.

As for Albertan's being staunch Conservatives, very much so on the federal front. However look at how Albertan's elect politician's in municipal elections. A staunch Liberal won with more than 80% of the vote in Calgary which is the bedrock on conservatism. As well the NDP did get some strong support in a few election's even winning in ridings which were made up of your typical "rednecks".

Albertan's would probably vote in more Liberal MP's if candidates had similar moral characteriscs of the former Liberal MP David Kilgour. However, we haven't seem many come that are nearly as good as him. My dad who has voted for the Reform party, the CA, and the Conservatives, said he would vote for Kilgour. What Liberal's need to do is take a page from what the Democrats were able to accomplish in the US and start running more candidates who can be appealing to your average Albertan.

watching&waiting · December 5, 2006

I as an Ontarioian do not even come close to supporting the liberals with their pick of Dion. I also believe that we have to consider the west way more then we consider Quebec or even the Maritimes, only because the west has renewed economies and they are coming into their own and if we are to have a united Canada, then we should be helping and guiding them, not ignoring and telling them to sort it out.

It is time for people to tell Quebec to sort it out. Quebec should have been told way back that they would need to run candidates across the country if they were going to have a federal party. That would end the Bloq or expand it one or the other. NFL should be told to go about getting their own oil based economy going and the federal leases that are now held should expire every 5 years, if they are not acted upon. The same with NS etc.

BC needs to further their expansion of lumber and other products to Asian countries and the federal goverment should be working that, as well as the sale of wheat to China, who is fast becoming a grain based country for diet.

The rest is all just really the daily runnings of the government, which is too centralized and too big. Yes there are a lot of programs that do nothing but apply to special interest groups and the Federal government should not be involved with any of them. The wealth of the country should be divided up according to needs, but not so it is harming one over another. Distribution of wealth is not a who who screams loudest gets the most, but rather what fits in with the wishes of all the people best. It is not hard today to have people express what they wish and then letting their MP's know. That was one thing I was hoping Harper would have shown more of by now, but yes he has been busy with other things. When I look at the other parties I just can say that they do not have any appeal to me, so for now I will support Harper as he is the best of the bunch for me.

kimmy · December 5, 2006

If the Liberals were interested in the west in general... Dion wouldn't have won. Dion's victory is seen as a sign that the Liberals are going to retreat back to central Canada. That's why people are again mentioning the old Liberal quote "screw the West, we'll take the rest."

I disagree; Mr. Kennedy's strong endorsement of Dion will likely help build support in the west.

That's a non-issue. Voters don't know Kennedy or what agreements might have been made to obtain that endorsement, or even that an endorsement occured. For most people in Alberta, Dion's insufferable arrogance as Intergovernmental Affairs Minister is more likely to be remembered remembered than whether Kennedy endorsed him.

What it boils down to is this: Kennedy was a candidate that could have garnered some interest in "the rest of Canada", and Dion is a candidate that has appeal limited to central Canada, and the Liberals picked the central Canada guy.

I also think Harper's policies (Income Trusts, Quebecois a nation, Wheat Board) have weakened the CPC support in the west. The Liberals may not actually win any seats in Alberta but I think their share of the popular vote will rise quite a bit.

While it might be true that those policies have dubious support in the west, just wait until Dion starts talking.

Under the Chretien regime, the "Kyoto Implementation Plan" was a big, empty whiteboard, with the words "carte-blanche exemption for auto-makers" written in small letters in the corner. That's a non-starter in the west, and just wait until they start putting some more ideas on that whiteboard.

Or just wait until Dion starts talking about his vision of federalism, or anything else that gives him the opportunity to play for the Quebec voters that the Liberals want to win back. When he starts trying to appeal to Quebec voters, he will be expressing a vision of Canada that makes westerners reach for the barf-bucket, and that's going to be a lot more negative for western voters than anything Harper's done over the past year.

Dion is a leader that's just not going to win anything in the west, and his selection appears to be a sign that the Liberals don't even intend to try. We're "fly over territory" again, and people aren't going to be happy about it.

-k

Shakeyhands · December 5, 2006

Canadian Metropolitan Populations
I don't want to get into my specific personal experiences with people across this country, but bar none the ones who think they are getting screwed the most and complain about it the loudest and most often are Albertans.

Next time your Cattle industry goes down the tubes, you can keep your mad cow beef. I have never heard anyone say thanks for accepting tons of it in Toronto, and Southern Ontario. Yet apparently all Easterners do is try and screw you.

In July, at the Toronto SARS concert, Molson Canadian Rocks, the ABP supported a program called Canadian Beef Rocks. "A delegation went to the concert and participated in the mile-long BBQ," says Cockwill. "We wore cowboy hats, and Premier Klein was there flipping burgers. We had Beef Without Borders." And Canadians responded. Immediately after the crisis broke, consumption rose 60%. "It was the first country in the world that increased consumption in a BSE crisis," says Glaser.

http://www.albertaventure.com/abventure_49...938&doc_id=5563

Yep the first country in the world to increase it's beef consumption during a BSE crisis yet the rest of Canada is out to get you. Time for some prozac in the water system. Cure the paranoia. Not only are we not out to get you, the rest of Canada came together to bail out your beef industry in it's time of need. But hey the rest of Canada doesn't care about Alberta, right? All they want to do is steal your oil money, right?

A year before we ate the BSE Crisis beef, eastern Canada helped keep it alive during the last drought. Sending thousands of bales of hay out west to help farmers in need.

http://www.tdc.ca/hay.htm

http://archives.cbc.ca/IDC-1-70-1407-9044/...gedies/drought/

So the next time you want to get on your soapbox and cry about how the rest of Canada doesn't care about Alberta why not try this first.

Good post. Interesting perspective to be sure. I wonder who will comment on it?

gc1765 · December 5, 2006

Oshawa isn't far. Do that many live in just Toronto? By population, who holds the most representation in Southern Ontario? Would be interesting to figure out, I'm a little too tired and not interested in doing so though.

Yes, there are that many people in Toronto. Another way of looking at it: Alberta has, what, 28 seats? Look at that map again and count the red/orange ridings in Toronto, I haven't counted the exact number but it's a lot more than 28, so if we are talking about population, then the CPC is as unrepresented (actually more so) in a large population (Toronto & surrounding areas) as the Liberals are unrepresented in Alberta.

If you want to play that game, then the Liberals aren't represented in rural/suburban Ontario as much as the CPC isn't in Toronto. That's just ridiculous.

Well it's all a matter of how you define a "region"? Why is Alberta a "region" but not Toronto or the suburbs? It makes the whole issue of a "National party" more complicated, no doubt, but if the Liberals aren't a National party then neither are the CPC. Either they both are, or they both aren't.

No doubt. But here's the deal. Toronto represents immigrant urban. Alberta represents: immigrant urban (Edmonton/Calgary), white urban (Calgary/Edmonton), lots and lots of white suburban, and considerable rural. And the Liberals can't even convince one riding. That's trouble. I can understand why the CPC doesn't appeal to blacks in inner city Toronto. But I can't understand the Liberals happy acceptance of not being able to be elected no matter the demographic in Alberta.

You're really splitting hairs with the demographics here. If you're trying to say that the CPC appeals to urban voters in Edmonton/Calgary (and therefore it doesn't matter if they don't appeal to Toronto?), you could just as easily say that the Liberals appeal to rural Saskatchewan/Manitoba (and Yukon etc...) which are probably just as similar in "demographics" to rural Alberta as Calgary/Edmonton are to Toronto.

The fact that they just give up and say oh well shows why we really need not bother with Liberal governments from an Alberta perspective. They have no interest in gaining seats here... though I'll tell you it's alot easier for them to do so then they think.

This I can agree with. The Liberals do need to reach out to the west. Kennedy would have done this for sure, at least in Edmonton anyhow. Edit: I don't know how successful they would be outside of Edmonton, but as Howard Dean said, it is a sign of respect to at least try.

geoffrey · December 5, 2006

This I can agree with. The Liberals do need to reach out to the west. Kennedy would have done this for sure, at least in Edmonton anyhow.

It's not a matter of Edmonton... Kennedy would have shown westerners that the Liberals views extend past the Ontario-Manitoba border. Right now, that's not very clear.

gc1765 · December 5, 2006

It's not a matter of Edmonton... Kennedy would have shown westerners that the Liberals views extend past the Ontario-Manitoba border. Right now, that's not very clear.

I just edited my post as you were posting. What I meant is that Kennedy might not be able to gain seats outside of Edmonton, but he should at least try. I think it's more important to reach out to Albertans, and show them that they aren't forgotten, even if that doesn't translate into seats.

geoffrey · December 5, 2006

It's not a matter of Edmonton... Kennedy would have shown westerners that the Liberals views extend past the Ontario-Manitoba border. Right now, that's not very clear.

I just edited my post as you were posting. What I meant is that Kennedy might not be able to gain seats outside of Edmonton, but he should at least try. I think it's more important to reach out to Albertans, and show them that they aren't forgotten, even if that doesn't translate into seats.

It would with the right leader, the right policies.

Selling steak to vegetarians never works. It's time the Liberals started selling brussel sprouts, or at least including them with the steak.

gc1765 · December 5, 2006

It would with the right leader, the right policies.
Selling steak to vegetarians never works. It's time the Liberals started selling brussel sprouts, or at least including them with the steak.

Which policies would those be? Aside from being more conservative, which would alienate urban voters.

Do you think Calgary could ever (in the foreseeable future) elect a leftie? Or Toronto electing a rightie? Perhaps there is a middle ground between the two, but it would be a very difficult balance.

The Liberals will, and should, always be the center/center left chioce (what's the point in having the two biggest parties on the same side of the spectrum). That may not appeal to many Albertans, but just because they may never win a seat doesn't mean they can't still show Albertans respect.

normanchateau · December 5, 2006

They have seats in Langley, Burnaby, Delta, White Rock, Port Moody/Port Coquitlam, Maple Ridge... ect. ect. They have more seats in the GVA than any other party actually (not a plurality though).

You Alberta easterners are so out of touch with BC politics. Burnaby, which borders directly on Vancouver, has two ridings, both of which are in the hands of the NDP, not the Conservatives.

And the Vancouver suburbs of Richmond, West Vancouver and North Vancouver are all now in the hands of the Liberals. Prior to 2006, North Vancouver and West Vancouver were Conservative ridings but the Cons chose to run religious extremists as candidates in the January, 2006 election. In Richmond, so-con religious extremist Darrel Reid was the Conservative candidate in January, 2006. Harper muzzled Reid prior to the election but Reid still lost. Now he's Chief of Staff to Rona Ambrose. :lol:

The Conservatives have now lost BC seats for two consecutive federal elections. I expect with so-con Harper leading them, they will lose seats again in the next election. Emerson's betrayal of the softwood lumber industry won't help Harper nor will his deteriorating relationship with China which is of special importance to BC. Harper's desire to create permanent criminal records for teenagers possessing any quantity of marijua won't help him in BC where support for decriminalization is particularly strong.

According to the November 22, 2006 Mustel Group poll of BC, the Conservatives are now down to 33% in BC, the Liberals at 30%, the NDP at 27% and the Greens at 9%. This drop in Conservative popularity means they will lose seats again in the next federal election. 66% of the BC population now supports parties to the left of so-con Harper's party. Other than Quebec, I can think of no other province in Canada where the Conservatives are now less popular.

Not a single Vancouver riding went to the Conservatives in 2006. The Conservative candidate in Emerson's riding received less than 20% of the popular vote. Emerson's riding is still filled with lawn signs reading "Recall Emerson". Harper shamed himself by bribing Emerson to switch parties in return for a Cabinet position. And he shamed himself further by making an unelected Quebecer who had been his campaign manager an appointed Senator and Cabinet minister. Harper was elected in January and his sleaziness became evident by February. Garth Turner called Harper on it which is why Turner was bounced from thre CPC. As Turner discovered, telling the truth is not permitted if you're a CPC MP.

mikedavid00 · December 5, 2006

They have seats in Langley, Burnaby, Delta, White Rock, Port Moody/Port Coquitlam, Maple Ridge... ect. ect. They have more seats in the GVA than any other party actually (not a plurality though).

You Alberta easterners are so out of touch with BC politics. Burnaby, which borders directly on Vancouver, has two ridings, both of which are in the hands of the NDP, not the Conservatives.

And the Vancouver suburbs of Richmond, West Vancouver and North Vancouver are all now in the hands of the Liberals. Prior to 2006, North Vancouver and West Vancouver were Conservative ridings but the Cons chose to run religious extremists as candidates in the January, 2006 election. In Richmond, so-con religious extremist Darrel Reid was the Conservative candidate in January, 2006. Harper muzzled Reid prior to the election but Reid still lost. Now he's Chief of Staff to Rona Ambrose.

The Conservatives have now lost BC seats for two consecutive federal elections. I expect with so-con Harper leading them, they will lose seats again in the next election. Emerson's betrayal of the softwood lumber industry won't help Harper nor will his deteriorating relationship with China which is of special importance to BC. Harper's desire to create permanent criminal records for teenagers possessing any quantity of marijua won't help him in BC where support for decriminalization is particularly strong.

According to the November 22, 2006 Mustel Group poll of BC, the Conservatives are now down to 33% in BC, the Liberals at 30%, the NDP at 27% and the Greens at 9%. This drop in Conservative popularity means they will lose seats again in the next federal election. 66% of the BC population now supports parties to the left of so-con Harper's party. Other than Quebec, I can think of no other province in Canada where the Conservatives are now less popular.

Not a single Vancouver riding went to the Conservatives in 2006. The Conservative candidate in Emerson's riding received less than 20% of the popular vote. Emerson's riding is still filled with lawn signs reading "Recall Emerson". Harper shamed himself by bribing Emerson to switch parties in return for a Cabinet position. And he shamed himself further by making an unelected Quebecer who had been his campaign manager an appointed Senator and Cabinet minister. Harper was elected in January and his sleaziness became evident by February. Garth Turner called Harper on it which is why Turner was bounced from thre CPC. As Turner discovered, telling the truth is not permitted if you're a CPC MP.

I dont know why you have to pander these things.

Any large area's with at least 30% visible minorities vote liberal. The CPC is a center\left party in many peoples opinions including mine. The Reform party of Canadad that supported immigration only when needed and a two tier helth care system was probably the first and last modern right wing party in Canada.

normanchateau · December 5, 2006

They have seats in Langley, Burnaby, Delta, White Rock, Port Moody/Port Coquitlam, Maple Ridge... ect. ect. They have more seats in the GVA than any other party actually (not a plurality though).

You Alberta easterners are so out of touch with BC politics. Burnaby, which borders directly on Vancouver, has two ridings, both of which are in the hands of the NDP, not the Conservatives.

And the Vancouver suburbs of Richmond, West Vancouver and North Vancouver are all now in the hands of the Liberals. Prior to 2006, North Vancouver and West Vancouver were Conservative ridings but the Cons chose to run religious extremists as candidates in the January, 2006 election. In Richmond, so-con religious extremist Darrel Reid was the Conservative candidate in January, 2006. Harper muzzled Reid prior to the election but Reid still lost. Now he's Chief of Staff to Rona Ambrose.

The Conservatives have now lost BC seats for two consecutive federal elections. I expect with so-con Harper leading them, they will lose seats again in the next election. Emerson's betrayal of the softwood lumber industry won't help Harper nor will his deteriorating relationship with China which is of special importance to BC. Harper's desire to create permanent criminal records for teenagers possessing any quantity of marijua won't help him in BC where support for decriminalization is particularly strong.

According to the November 22, 2006 Mustel Group poll of BC, the Conservatives are now down to 33% in BC, the Liberals at 30%, the NDP at 27% and the Greens at 9%. This drop in Conservative popularity means they will lose seats again in the next federal election. 66% of the BC population now supports parties to the left of so-con Harper's party. Other than Quebec, I can think of no other province in Canada where the Conservatives are now less popular.

Not a single Vancouver riding went to the Conservatives in 2006. The Conservative candidate in Emerson's riding received less than 20% of the popular vote. Emerson's riding is still filled with lawn signs reading "Recall Emerson". Harper shamed himself by bribing Emerson to switch parties in return for a Cabinet position. And he shamed himself further by making an unelected Quebecer who had been his campaign manager an appointed Senator and Cabinet minister. Harper was elected in January and his sleaziness became evident by February. Garth Turner called Harper on it which is why Turner was bounced from thre CPC. As Turner discovered, telling the truth is not permitted if you're a CPC MP.

The CPC is a center\left party in many peoples opinions including mine.

:lol:

Saturn · December 5, 2006

The GTA has twice the population of Alberta. To say that the tories have seats in Toronto is like saying that the NDP have seats in Alberta cause they have some in BC.

Not at all really. Shows your disconnect with your fellow citizens to say something that ridiculous. You know nothing about Alberta, or BC.

This is nothing but a completely rediculous comment. My very obvious point was that there are 40 seats in Toronto - none of them conservative (as many seats as Alberta and Saskatchewan combined) and just because there are conservative seats ourside that area, does not mean that they have representation in TO. What matters are people, not area, and TO happens to have as many people as Alberta and Saskatchewan combined.

Also, the only reason they have a seat in Van is because they bribed Emerson to join them. Besides, Montreal has the population of Alberta and if you can say that a party without a seat in Alberta is not a national party, you'll have to admit that this implies that a party without a seat in Montreal is not a national party.

They have seats in Langley, Burnaby, Delta, White Rock, Port Moody/Port Coquitlam, Maple Ridge... ect. ect. They have more seats in the GVA than any other party actually (not a plurality though). So what exactly are you talking about?

Montreal does not have the population of Alberta. It's a serious concern yes, but they are part of that distinct nation right? So ya, they've got representation there. There is no Liberal within 700km of Calgary and further from Edmonton. That's a bit of a problem.

Pretending to not see the obvioius again? Then memorize this: Unpopulated land doesn't matter - people do. Montreal does have as many people as Alberta and the conservatives didn't get a single seat anywhere near Montreal. 700 km doesn't mean anything in a country with such uneven distirbution of the population. There isn't a single conservative seat within 1000 miles of Resolute but you ain't mentioning that.

The Tories have seats in the GTA and Vancouver. The only place that's an issue is Montreal.

In the suburbs, yes. If you count places like Burlington as the GTA then fine. But what about Toronto (& even surrounding areas like Mississauga & brampton)? There's what, 2 and a half million in Toronto alone?

Oshawa isn't far. Do that many live in just Toronto? By population, who holds the most representation in Southern Ontario? Would be interesting to figure out, I'm a little too tired and not interested in doing so though.

If you want to play that game, then the Liberals aren't represented in rural/suburban Ontario as much as the CPC isn't in Toronto. That's just ridiculous.

Look at the map! Every single riding which is entirely urban is red or orange - all cities of over 100,000 are red and orange - in order of population: Toronto, Ottawa, Mississauga, Hamilton, London, Windsor, Kitchener-Waterloo, Thunder Bay, Brantford, Kingston. The only exeption is Oshawa and since you are too lazy to find out why let me tell you why: Because some 30% of NDP voters went and voted strategically for the Liberals to avoid sending a conservative MP to Ottawa - a pretty bad choice because if only a third of them had voted for their first choice the riding would have been held by the NDP (by voting strategically they got exactly what they were trying to avoid - just another fluke due to our retarded voting system). By population the Conservatives hold a mere 20% of the seats in Ontario. All that blue in the map is huge unpopulated areas. It's the poorly-educated, rural, and aging population that cares more about gay marriage than the future of the country.

Anyways, take a look at this map: Link

There's a lot more seats in that red/orange chunk then there is in all of Alberta.

No doubt. But here's the deal. Toronto represents immigrant urban. Alberta represents: immigrant urban (Edmonton/Calgary), white urban (Calgary/Edmonton), lots and lots of white suburban, and considerable rural. And the Liberals can't even convince one riding. That's trouble. I can understand why the CPC doesn't appeal to blacks in inner city Toronto. But I can't understand the Liberals happy acceptance of not being able to be elected no matter the demographic in Alberta.

The fact that they just give up and say oh well shows why we really need not bother with Liberal governments from an Alberta perspective. They have no interest in gaining seats here... though I'll tell you it's alot easier for them to do so then they think.

Great point! Using racist remarks/analysis to support your point is exacly why your views are not respected in this part of the country.

Figleaf · December 5, 2006

Dion leading the Liberals will take the party down and he will never even come close to getting power. First off he will lose seats in Quebec mostly to Bloq but some to CPC. Then he will lose many seats in and around Toronto as he will not be taken to by the people there. His hopes of getting any seats west of the Ontario border is slim to non-existant. So Gerry just where is he going to get 25 or so seats to be a Minority, or the 3-40 seats to be a majority? It just will not happen. You are stuck with him now for at least two runs at elections and there will be no chance to gain power in either. You know that, but you still try to shine the bad apple, but it will still be rotten no matter how shiny you make it .

Harper will go nowhere in Quebec against Dion. The battle in Quebec will be for marginal Liberal gains against the Bloc. These are likely since the high-water of the sponsorship scandal must have been reached by now. Dion's integrity will purge the taint to a large extent (though candidate selection will be important).

Next election Liberals gain 5-10 seats in Quebec.

Ontario will rally to Dion for his federalism, environmentalism, and social liberalism. If the Conservatives can hold their seats in Ontario they'll be lucky. The NDP is at risk in Ontario as well. What's Jack got that Stephane hasn't got?

With Kennedy appointed deputy and a few key western power-candidates the Dion Liberals could make a concerted pitch to parts of the west untainted by knee-jerk anti-Canadianism, gaining additional seats. Many seats in BC will be succeptible. If Kennedy ran in Manitoba there is potential for inroads there as well.

Saturn · December 5, 2006

Dion is a leader that's just not going to win anything in the west, and his selection appears to be a sign that the Liberals don't even intend to try. We're "fly over territory" again, and people aren't going to be happy about it.

As someone pointed out earlier, you would rather drink poison than vote for any party other than the Conservatives. Martin put so much effort in appeasing Alberta that he just broke his neck banging his head against the "western alienation" wall. Dion is smart enough to realize that no matter what he does, he can never expect any kind of positive return on effort in Alberta. Either way you are not going to be happy, so it's your own fault that you are so rigid in your opinions that you've pulled yourself out of the game altogether.

mikedavid00 · December 5, 2006

The CPC is a center\left party in many peoples opinions including mine.

Well they are a left leaning center party. Center at best.

Canada doesn't have a right wing party.. unfortunately.

We need new private built hosptials and healtchare plans to save our system. We also more importantly need immigration only when we have job shortages. We need more independance for the provinces. WE need to privatise the CBC. These are right wing principles that the CPC do not have.

Saturn · December 5, 2006

It's not a matter of Edmonton... Kennedy would have shown westerners that the Liberals views extend past the Ontario-Manitoba border. Right now, that's not very clear.

I just edited my post as you were posting. What I meant is that Kennedy might not be able to gain seats outside of Edmonton, but he should at least try. I think it's more important to reach out to Albertans, and show them that they aren't forgotten, even if that doesn't translate into seats.

Of course it is highly desirable to reach out to everyone but do you have any suggestions on how to reach out to Albertans without having your hand bit off?

Figleaf · December 5, 2006

...
Nice of Saturn to go out of his way to mention all of the traditional stereotypes central-Canadians hold about Albertans (and in doing so, provide a handy illustration of how the stereotypical Ontarion as seen by Albertans.)

Sadly, during my time in Ontario, I found that Saturn's ignorance is actually fairly typical among young Ontarions.

What exactly do you think he got wrong?

I think you have to realize, gerry, that Stephane Dion will not draw flies in Alberta (or anywhere else west of Winnipeg, outside of urban Vancouver.)

Would any of the leadership candidates have stood to do better in the west? Why?

Saturn · December 5, 2006

I dont know why you have to pander these things.
Any large area's with at least 30% visible minorities vote liberal. The CPC is a center\left party in many peoples opinions including mine. The Reform party of Canadad that supported immigration only when needed and a two tier helth care system was probably the first and last modern right wing party in Canada.

There are no large areas with 30% visible minorities in Canada. Your racist, xenophobic views are exacly why there are 100 degrees of separation between you and ROC. And what, are you native to complain about immigration?

gc1765 · December 5, 2006

Of course it is highly desirable to reach out to everyone but do you have any suggestions on how to reach out to Albertans without having your hand bit off?

I don't know, that's why I'm asking geoffrey, he's an Albertan and I'm not. In terms of policies, I have no idea what would please Albertans and Torontonians at the same time. I would, however, as a start, take Howard Dean's advice and not concede any province or riding. The Liberals should certainly campaign hard in Alberta and ask Albertans for their vote. They may or may not get it, but I agree that it's a sign of respect to ask. If they don't even bother to put forth an effort to campaign in Alberta, it's no wonder they aren't going to vote Liberal. I imagine that doing otherwise would only make Albertans feel forgotten, like their vote doesn't matter....am I right?

MightyAC · December 5, 2006

Or just wait until Dion starts talking about his vision of federalism, or anything else that gives him the opportunity to play for the Quebec voters that the Liberals want to win back. When he starts trying to appeal to Quebec voters, he will be expressing a vision of Canada that makes westerners reach for the barf-bucket, and that's going to be a lot more negative for western voters than anything Harper's done over the past year.

Wait a minute which PM was it that decided the Quebecois should be nation about a week ago? I hope your barf bucket is handy?

Dion is a leader that's just not going to win anything in the west, and his selection appears to be a sign that the Liberals don't even intend to try. We're "fly over territory" again, and people aren't going to be happy about it.

So you think the Libs had to pick Kennedy otherwise they consider Alberta a fly over territory? Or does a leader have to speak English as a first language to include Alberta?

Do you think it makes sense to pick a leader that appeals to Alberta, Saskatchewan and Manitoba at the expense of the rest of Canada? How many seats do those 3 provinces represent 28, 14 and 14? Give your head a shake...