Is America In It's Final Days?

[Achilles]

I cannot believe that one would compare The US to Rome. The United States will stay on top of the economic and political world until our grandchildren's grandchildren ruin it (no offense to them, but thats how civilizations always end up). The fact that this subject is even up for discussion makes me sick.

[Achilles]

[Continued] The reason Rome met its downfall was because they attempted to govern too many people at once, and too much land was under their control. As far as I can see, the US isn't trying to acquire more land, and hasn't been for a while. The last expansions were Alska and Hawaii, which turned out to be ok. I simply cannot see the US attempting to take control of Canada or Mexico, or any other country for that matter...

[Black Dog]

I cannot believe that one would compare The US to Rome. The United States will stay on top of the economic and political world until our grandchildren's grandchildren ruin it (no offense to them, but thats how civilizations always end up). The fact that this subject is even up for discussion makes me sick.

The reason Rome met its downfall was because they attempted to govern too many people at once, and too much land was under their control. As far as I can see, the US isn't trying to acquire more land, and hasn't been for a while. The last expansions were Alska and Hawaii, which turned out to be ok. I simply cannot see the US attempting to take control of Canada or Mexico, or any other country for that matter...

Expansionism has grown beyond the simple quest for territory. In the past, empire's conquered and governed. Today's empire's job is to secure the world for it's own economic interests, guarantee markets for goods and products and assure its total political, economic, cultural and military dominance. The better analogy would be to the British Empire.

[FastNed]

Hi Achilles, welcome to the Forum.

I agree and suggest that the Philippines and Puerto Rico are proof positive of the non-imperial nature of America.

Puerto Rico is free to leave its status as a Commonwealth of America and become independent whenever its citizens so desire by a simple majority vote.

So much for the "Imperial" Empire theory!

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear FastNed,

I would think that Puerto Rico is as free to leave America as a hostage is free to bolt for the door. While I would not suggest that they are being 'held hostage', if they tried to secede and move in any direction REMOTELY left, they would be invaded faster than you can say "Papa Doc' Duvalier.

The Phillipines were 'America's Jewel' in the Pacific because of the incredibly cheap labour a dictator named Marcos provided, and is going to become a major sore spot in the next 10-20 yrs as fanatical Islamism entrenches itself.

The US just doesn't seem to learn.

[Craig Read]

What is troublesome about some of the posts in this thread is that:

1. they assume the US is their enemy

2. they assume the worst intentions in US foreign policy

3. they mistakenly label the US an empire when clearly it is not. Even in Iraq, if for no other reason than costs, the US will clear out when the time is right.

4. they disregard the benefits of US hegemony and focus on some of the ill effects of singular US actions.

These assumptions are not balanced nor fair. Canada free loads of the US in many areas. Until Canadians stop freeloading and pull their weight in the world, I find it rather nauseating to listen to people carp about a US empire. Where exactly is this empire ? PR citizens are rather content to have an association with the US. The Philippines is a sovereign state and needs US capital and good relations to build itself up. Iraq needs US expertise, capital and military protection to efface fascism. Do you really expect the UN or the EU to do anything there ?

Maybe time to recognise some reality and give the US some credit. No other nation even tries to mix morality and doing the right thing in its foreign policy like the Americans do. The US does not need an empire, through alliances, trade and military projection it can satisfy its economic and political objectives in a world of free nation states. Having an empire is not in the US' best interests.

[FastNed]

America became what it is, Craig, by doing what comes natural to it - allowing its people to be the best they can be. So simple to say yet so difficult to achieve. Because of what we are, we are a very self-centered people, content (as much as our restless nature allows) within ourselves and within our own Country. We don't want an empire, we just wish be be left to ourselves - to explore and expand our revolution of freedom. To see what heights we may reach, within and without ourselves. We don't think this is too much to ask but evidently it is.

The rest of the World (and a small minority of us) have all these bright ideas and demands - America should..., America must..., it is America's responsibility.... and on and on, ad nauseam.

Each time we reach a point of saturation and find a leader willing to get us out of social work - the rescues and Nation Building so beloved of those who do not have to pay the bills of blood and treasure, some dipstick comes along and puts us into the middle of someone else's problems. Lately, we are the poster boy for a thousand years of Islamic failures. All we wish to do is mind our own business and go about our own lives but these unshaven rag-heads with their sick fantasies wish to drag the world back to the Seventh Century. Part of the World may end up living a Seventh Century lifestyle in the rubble of what was, but it will not be America.

The Sheriff has left the Building is not a joke. We refused to be dragged into Liberia - it is not and was not our problem. Regrettably, we are going to have to force the rest of the World to face their own problems and clean up their own messes. When enough of their own die, they will find the courage to select leaders to resolve their difficulties or pass on from the endangered species list and join the "Extinct" group.

Oh, the French are gone - what a pity. Do remind me in a month or two to shed a tear.

[Plato]

we just wish be be left to ourselves

Are you talking about America's people, Ned? Or our you talking about America as a whole, government and all. If you are talking about America as a whole then what about Iraq? How can you say that all we want is to be left to ourselves when right now soldiers are dieing over a conflict outside of our borders? Now, of course this is our problem because of 9-11. But are we dealing with it in the right way? We could just as easily put the man power thats being used up in our little "war" into protecting America itself on our grounds.

If you are talking about America's people then i totally agree with you. Our government, spefically Bush (no offense to any Republicans), needs to stop this war in Iraq and focus on the protection of our country inside our country. Bush justified the war by searching for weapons of mass destruction. But where are they? Not only has that justification failed but for some reason U.S. Senators are talking about a connection to Hussein. Where has this connection showed up? Only in the governments minds. All Hussein was, was a nasty dictator, not a terrorist.

[Mr Farrius]

Having an empire is not in the US' best interests.

You wouldn't know that Craig, considering that you aren't even American, and you probably don't work in the American government. Let me start by saying that the U.S. government isn't stupid. I'll give them credit for that. Of course they wouldn't make it so obvious; the American people would revolt! Take a look at history and find the motives behind every geostrategic action the U.S. has taken. Why does the U.S. establish a democratic government in every nation it conquers?: Imperialistic interests, under the pretext of a friendly nation trying to help out. All of this is extremely similar to the concept of romanization, back in the days of the ancient Roman empire.

[Hugo]

Why does the U.S. establish a democratic government in every nation it conquers?: Imperialistic interests

What absolute balderdash. Of course, we can see the "truth" of your witless idea in the way that France and Germany so slavishy follow the US in everything they do, both being democracies liberated and created by the US.

Oh, wait, they don't. In fact, many countries that the US established don't toe the American line at all.

[Mr Farrius]

Hey, regardless of whether France, Germany, or any other country that was established by the U.S. don't "follow the U.S. in everything they do" is irrelevant. How can they? What do you think a democracy is? Are you telling me that the United States' plan backfired? I think not. What is relevant is the fact that the U.S. is spreading its own political ideology across the world, making nations founded on the same principles that it has itself i.e. imperialism

[Hugo]

No, I don't think so.

Imperialism: The policy of extending a nation's authority by territorial acquisition or by the establishment of economic and political hegemony over other nations.

Dictionary.com lookup

The export of cultural and political values does not equal economic and political hegemony, ergo this is not imperialism. As I've already said, the US does not have hegemony over the "acquisitions" of its "empire", therefore, it isn't an empire.

[Mr Farrius]

I must say I am impressed by your sources and your clever ways of defending yourself with a dictionary. First of all, I never said the U.S. was an empire, merely that they seem to have imperialistic interests. 2nd, note that in your powerful and compelling definition of imperialism from dictionary.com it says "political hegemony". Following that logic, isn't establishing the same political ideology in other nations imperialism? Or do you need to bring out Webster's this time?

[Hugo]

I never said the U.S. was an empire, merely that they seem to have imperialistic interests.

Here's what you said:

What is relevant is the fact that the U.S. is spreading its own political ideology across the world... i.e. imperialism

And I explained to you that this is not the correct usage of the word "imperialism", and that what the US is doing cannot correctly be described as imperialism.

Following that logic, isn't establishing the same political ideology in other nations imperialism?

No, because ideology is not hegemony. Don't make me break out the dictionary again.

Or do you need to bring out Webster's this time?

That depends on whether or not you're going to stop mangling the English language.

[Nuclear]

I have to agree with Craig and FastNed....if they'd leave us alone, outside of peaceful trade, I'd be more than happy to forget the rest of the world exists.