Afghanistan Mission - The Right Thing To Do

[White Doors]

There you go talking about traitors again.

The Conservatives have talked about how the mission has gotten children, especially girls, back in school.

In one year though that has dropped by 200,000. There is more violence and some people who came back to the south are leaving again because they lack safety.

I don't recall this particular thread being specific to Remembrance Day.

Canadians are concerned that the mission to Afghanistan might not be achievable. You are calling those people traitors. It is up to the government to explain why the mission is achievable.

So Jobin, as with the NDP and the likes of the left. How do you plan on getting those children back in school? I've herd NOTHING but criticism about the mission, BUT NOTHING about an alternative solution?

Do you you just want to build schools and send the kids to them with no security?

How do you plan on keeping security?

Please, someone give us ATLEASED one alternative. A plan...I have seen nothing and I'm getting pissed off that everyone is all show and no go.

They cant offer another alternative because there isnt one. Unfortunatly there are to many isolationists and ignorants speaking their mind in this country. The isolationists think it doesnt matter what happens out side our borders and are either a little foolish or have no conscience and have no problems watching the suffering of others on the evening news. The ignorants think you can make peace by handing out candy to children. Someone needs to break it to these people that in a country where militants are trying to seize the government it is necessary to fight, not just build schools. You cant build a school until you have gotten rid of those who are trying to blow it up. The myth of peacekeeping in this country is still strong. I guess I shouldnt consider it common sense that you cant keep the peace in an area that doesnt have peace.

Yep, good post. It is up to all of us like-minded people on this subject to spread the word. Especially this week. For some reason the 'progressive' pacifists are getting all the press. Speak up people.

[normanchateau]

Canadians are concerned that the mission to Afghanistan might not be achievable. You are calling those people traitors. It is up to the government to explain why the mission is achievable.

It is also up to the government to explain why they want to prop up the corrupt Karzai government which is riddled with drug smugglers and warlords. The government might also explain why Canadians should be dying to protect an Islamic fundamentalist conservative theocracy which sentences to death those who convert to Christianity.

[White Doors]

Canadians are concerned that the mission to Afghanistan might not be achievable. You are calling those people traitors. It is up to the government to explain why the mission is achievable.

It is also up to the government to explain why they want to prop up the corrupt Karzai government which is riddled with drug smugglers and warlords. The government might also explain why Canadians should be dying to protect an Islamic fundamentalist conservative theocracy which sentences to death those who convert to Christianity.

They are a democracy. You have been told this numerous times.

[scribblet]

They are a democracy. You have been told this numerous times.

It doesn't suit the agenda to acknowledge that, although they are not a democracy as we know, but a lot better than under the Taliban. At least women can go to school and even run for public office

Even the Toronto Star thinks progress is being made

http://www.thestar.com/

NATO making a difference in Afghanistan

Five years after the ousting of the Taliban, the country is making progress in democracy, education, health care and equality, writes NATO Secretary General Jaap de Hoop Scheffer

Nov. 10, 2006. 01:00 AM

On Nov. 13, 2001, coalition and Northern Alliance forces took Kabul, the capital of Afghanistan. The Taliban was ousted from power, and Al Qaeda lost its safe haven. It was an important day for the people of Afghanistan, who were liberated from a terrible oppressor. It was also important for the international community, which began a major effort to help build a new Afghanistan: democratic, at peace, and no longer a threat to the world.

Five years later, what has been the result? Are we making a difference? Have the lives of the Afghans gotten better — and are we, in the international community, safer than we were?

The answer is a clear "yes." It is sometimes difficult, as we read media accounts of suicide attacks and roadside bombs, to step back and look at the big picture.

But anniversaries are the opportunity to do just that. And the big picture — the story of Afghanistan five years after the fall of the Taliban — should encourage all of us who believe in what we are helping to build there.

#

Democracy: Five years ago, there was no national government and no democracy. Today, Afghanistan has held a series of successful elections, and now has a constitution, an elected president and parliament.

#

Equality: Women, banished from society under the Taliban, are now in government. Eighty-seven women, 25 per cent of the total number of MPs, sit in the National Assembly. Almost four in 10 Afghan children in school are girls — from around zero five years ago.

#

Health care: 80 per cent of the population now has access to health care, up 10 times from 2001. For a country at Afghanistan's stage of development, this is extremely high.

#

Education: Almost 6 million Afghan children are in school, six times more than 2001. Enrolment in higher education is up 10 times, to more than 40,000. And despite a big increase this year in attacks by the Taliban, killing teachers and burning down schools, more than 1,000 schools have been built or opened so far this year.

#

Economy: The Afghan economy has tripled in value in the past five years and per capita income has doubled. People simply have more money in their pocket.

[normanchateau]

Democracy: Five years ago, there was no national government and no democracy. Today, Afghanistan has held a series of successful elections, and now has a constitution, an elected president and parliament.

No, they are not a democracy. Their constitution appears online at the website of the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan. Despite what Bush and Harper say, a theocracy is not a democracy.

[White Doors]

Democracy: Five years ago, there was no national government and no democracy. Today, Afghanistan has held a series of successful elections, and now has a constitution, an elected president and parliament.

No, they are not a democracy. Their constitution appears online at the website of the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan. Despite what Bush and Harper say, a theocracy is not a democracy.

What's it feel like to be blinded to the facts by partisan issues Norman? tell us please?

[scribblet]

What's it feel like to be blinded to the facts by partisan issues Norman? tell us please?

LOL As I said, it is not democracy as we know it, but one heck of a big improvement over what they had, golly gee, didn't they actually vote on something a while ago - even the women. Maybe some people think the Afghanis are , you know, not equal to us and really - that vote they had a while ago doesn't count.

Maybe some folks think its better that the women live under the previous regime, do we have to post pictures to show what that was like, and how their situation has improved.

[jdobbin]

So Jobin, as with the NDP and the likes of the left. How do you plan on getting those children back in school? I've herd NOTHING but criticism about the mission, BUT NOTHING about an alternative solution?

Do you you just want to build schools and send the kids to them with no security?

How do you plan on keeping security?

Please, someone give us ATLEASED one alternative. A plan...I have seen nothing and I'm getting pissed off that everyone is all show and no go.

I watched the PBS series on the Taliban when it was first broadcast. It basically said that the Taliban hide and receive support in Pakistan. We have asked and NATO has asked that Pakistan do something about it. They don't. PBS's report shows that.

Only the Afghans will really be able to come up with a solution. It isn't up to Canada to ensure their security in perpetuity. In fact, the two year commitment on the frontlines is straining Canada to the core.

Canada should be pissed at the U.S. who think that Afghanistan is worth 25% less funding than Bosnia. We should be pissed at NATO who don't commit enough troops or support. Why get pissed at me? I kept saying that Afghanistan was going to be a problem because it is bigger than just one country. It is about Pakistan and it is about the rest of the world not being fully committed.

At some point, we are going to have to come off the frontlines. Will the rest of the world be up to the challenge? Will Afghanistan?

Afghanistan is now our number 1 recipient of security and aid. We are committing more and more to the fight and yet the progress has turned backwards in terms of southern security. And that didn't come from me but the British defence ministry last month.

So go get pissed at the U.S. or the corruption and tribalism in government in Afghanistan. Or get pissed at NATO.

Why is Canada at the sharp end of the stick for two years straight? What is our ultimate exit strategy win or lose? Is Harper setting things up for more than two years of conflict? How will he sustain that? What happens if our forces are required elsewhere?

Is no one asking these questions?

[White Doors]

So Jobin, as with the NDP and the likes of the left. How do you plan on getting those children back in school? I've herd NOTHING but criticism about the mission, BUT NOTHING about an alternative solution?

Do you you just want to build schools and send the kids to them with no security?

How do you plan on keeping security?

Please, someone give us ATLEASED one alternative. A plan...I have seen nothing and I'm getting pissed off that everyone is all show and no go.

I watched the PBS series on the Taliban when it was first broadcast. It basically said that the Taliban hide and receive support in Pakistan. We have asked and NATO has asked that Pakistan do something about it. They don't. PBS's report shows that.

Only the Afghans will really be able to come up with a solution. It isn't up to Canada to ensure their security in perpetuity. In fact, the two year commitment on the frontlines is straining Canada to the core.

Canada should be pissed at the U.S. who think that Afghanistan is worth 25% less funding than Bosnia. We should be pissed at NATO who don't commit enough troops or support. Why get pissed at me? I kept saying that Afghanistan was going to be a problem because it is bigger than just one country. It is about Pakistan and it is about the rest of the world not being fully committed.

At some point, we are going to have to come off the frontlines. Will the rest of the world be up to the challenge? Will Afghanistan?

Afghanistan is now our number 1 recipient of security and aid. We are committing more and more to the fight and yet the progress has turned backwards in terms of southern security. And that didn't come from me but the British defence ministry last month.

So go get pissed at the U.S. or the corruption and tribalism in government in Afghanistan. Or get pissed at NATO.

Why is Canada at the sharp end of the stick for two years straight? What is our ultimate exit strategy win or lose? Is Harper setting things up for more than two years of conflict? How will he sustain that? What happens if our forces are required elsewhere?

Is no one asking these questions?

Of course people are asking these questions.

It is a war, you expect there to be no 'problems'? How delightfully nieve of you.

There are, of course, issues and they are trying to address them. No reason to want to cut and run though and no reason to not look at the good that our girls and guys are doing even with these problems. Afghanistan is much better off than it was 5 years ago and the facts back this up.

[jdobbin]

Of course people are asking these questions.

It is a war, you expect there to be no 'problems'? How delightfully nieve of you.

There are, of course, issues and they are trying to address them. No reason to want to cut and run though and no reason to not look at the good that our girls and guys are doing even with these problems. Afghanistan is much better off than it was 5 years ago and the facts back this up.

So your answer is "stay the course" even if there is no progress on security in the south and Canada is still at the frontlines?

[Cameron]

Well, those are some very good points. I don't disagree with you. I think it is time to let NATO and the US to start pulling its weight and commit some troops.

But Canada pulling our is NOT the answer nor the solution.

[jdobbin]

Well, those are some very good points. I don't disagree with you. I think it is time to let NATO and the US to start pulling its weight and commit some troops.

But Canada pulling our is NOT the answer nor the solution.

I haven't advocated pulling out immediately. I has said that we shouldn't be on the front for two years.

The initial commitment we made was because our generals said we wouldn't be able to sustain a fight without regrouping and retraining. The two year extension shouldn't have meant we are hanging out butts out there in a non-stop fight with no back-up. Even when we went on that suicide mission to Dieppe, there was at least a plan to get out of there at some point.

[normanchateau]

As I said, it is not democracy as we know it, but one heck of a big improvement over what they had

Yes, it is not a democracy as we know it. That's because it's a theocracy, and a theocracy is not a democracy.

Even the constitution of the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan acknowledges this which is why in March, a man was sentenced to death for converting to Christianity. And journalists in Afghanistan have been convicted of the crime of blasphemy. So despite the fact that Afghanistan claims to abide by the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, the Koran takes precedence over those and all other rights.

[fellowtraveller]

Koran, democracy, theocracy, Karzai, blah blah blah.

Here is the fact that matters: over two million ordinary Afghans have returned to their homes since the invasion by NATO deposed the Taliban. Until those same people choose to return to the camps, it is an inescapable conclusion that the invasion was the right thing to do, and that the occupation is maintaining that correct decision.

Somebody above wants a solution that will turn the country into Switzerland? There isn't one, Afghaisntan will forever be dependent on foreign aid. That is reality.

There is however a way to get rid of the Taliban without killing everybody in the country. Cut off thier economic head by simply buying all the poppy crop. Outbid them. Note that it is impossible to stop the growing of poppies - also note that it is this trade that supports the Taliban. They take the profits earned and hire fighters at $12 per day. Why can't we do the same, and cut off their economic heads?

Really, in a country without any industry and without any jobs, and with no likelihood of either anytime in the foreseeable future - it is past time for conventional thinking.

[Figleaf]

There is however a way to get rid of the Taliban without killing everybody in the country. Cut off thier economic head by simply buying all the poppy crop. Outbid them. Note that it is impossible to stop the growing of poppies - also note that it is this trade that supports the Taliban.

I'm trying to make sense of this proposal. And I guess I can think of it being possible if you suppose that the Taliban make their money by buying the poppies from farmers and then selling opium into the international market. A mass purchase from the farmers could, in theory put a total supply crunch onto the Taliban so they'd be force out of the opium trade. Of course there would be repurcussions on the opium market too: a price increase. It would also be expensive, and there would be leakage.

But suppose the Taliban don't actually make and deal the drugs. Suppose they are 'silent partners' with the farmers? In that case I think your proposed policy would be counter-productive.

[fellowtraveller]

But suppose the Taliban don't actually make and deal the drugs. Suppose they are 'silent partners' with the farmers? In that case I think your proposed policy would be counter-productive.

The Taliban make their gravy by being in the middle, between the growers and iternational distributors.

The opium trade is not like the cocaine business, which is far more vertically integrated with Colombians for example involved in every phase from growing in the hills to mid level distribution in Boston. The Taliban don't have people in Manchester selling ounces.

And that makes them vulnerab;le, very vulnerable.

Expensive? A few billion perhaps, a trifle. The farmers in Afghanistan don't care who they sell too, they know only that by far the highest value crop available to them is the poppy. It will be grown no matter who is in the middle. Taliban or NATO. And consider that once the Taliban have been supplanted as brokers- which they quickly will - the new bosses will enjoy many of the same control that they enjoyed.

Can NATO execute this unusual mission? Why not? It takes money, armed men and the will to stay the course. Oh, and a little imagination and just a little smidgen of backbone. Reading these threads, it is obvious which of these is lacking..

[fellowtraveller]

Sorry, I did not address your concern about the Taliban being growers as well as middlemen.

Fine, let them be growers. Growers don't have the money, or need the money, to hire an army to prtect the trade. That is the job of the gang in the middle - the Taliban. The Taliban take the big profits in the middle and hire fighters, it is by and large a mercenary army, a provider of jobs in an incredibly impoverished place. I think the ideologues are few and far between.

Cut off the economic head - the snake will die.

Try to kill the poppy trade - that is a no hope and counterproductive startegy, one that plays right into the Talibans hands.

Become part the poppy trade - the controlling part - bye bye Taliban.

[normanchateau]

Koran, democracy, theocracy, Karzai, blah blah blah.

It's blah blah to you but some of us don't want our sons and daughters sacrificing their lives to protect a corrupt, fundamentalist Islamic theocracy.

[fellowtraveller]

Koran, democracy, theocracy, Karzai, blah blah blah.

It's blah blah to you but some of us don't want our sons and daughters sacrificing their lives to protect a corrupt, fundamentalist Islamic theocracy.

Some of us want to more than just bitch and whine too.

And you can shut your cakehole about my son and daughter.

Both have been raised to think, and to judge for themselves, and to recognize a big stinking pile of empty rhetoric when they see one.

[normanchateau]

Koran, democracy, theocracy, Karzai, blah blah blah.

It's blah blah to you but some of us don't want our sons and daughters sacrificing their lives to protect a corrupt, fundamentalist Islamic theocracy.

Some of us want to more than just bitch and whine too.

And you can shut your cakehole about my son and daughter.

Both have been raised to think, and to judge for themselves, and to recognize a big stinking pile of empty rhetoric when they see one.

Your response merely reinforces the fact that the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan is a corrupt,

fundamentalist Islamic theocracy.

[fellowtraveller]

Koran, democracy, theocracy, Karzai, blah blah blah.

It's blah blah to you but some of us don't want our sons and daughters sacrificing their lives to protect a corrupt, fundamentalist Islamic theocracy.

Some of us want to more than just bitch and whine too.

And you can shut your cakehole about my son and daughter.

Both have been raised to think, and to judge for themselves, and to recognize a big stinking pile of empty rhetoric when they see one.

Your response merely reinforces the fact that the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan is a corrupt,

fundamentalist Islamic theocracy.

Thanks for that, there are far too few moments in life when we have laugh out loud moments. Unfortunately for me, I was drinking juice when I read that and passed much of it through my nose en route to the keyboard. Ah well, it is a small price to pay for a good giggle.