Iraq And Wmd's

[KrustyKidd]

Yes, there wrong because Craig doesn't like anything that doesn't share his views! You have posted far more hateful and spiteful posts then most of Europe combined.

You miss the fundemental basis of 9/11 yourself. You shouldn't be talking.

Hey Nova, without delving into US foreign policy or right or wrong I would like to point out that there are people for whatever reason who desire to kill us in the most painful manner possible. I would argue that my family's safety immediately is of more concern to me than any terrorist's feelings and for that matter any other nation or person on the face of the planet. How could a parent tell his child that there are men who want to kill her but not to worry as we may not be trying to erradicate them but rather are working very hard to understand them and why they want to blow her head off live on CNN? Once we have safeguarded that then by all means let's address misunderstandings, injustices and so on and forth.

[nova_satori]

I would like to point out that there are people for whatever reason who desire to kill us in the most painful manner possible.

There are always people like in both sides. In America there are people who condone genocide of all Muslims (a few of the right-wingers were represente that view), and some that would like to see many of them die a horrible death. Likewise, that attidue exists in the middle east.

I would argue that my family's safety immediately is of more concern to me than any terrorist's feelings and for that matter any other nation or person on the face of the planet.

Of course, but do you want to live in fear your WHOLE LIFE? Changing their attitudes will ultimately change the problem, and in a good dirction, get rid of the fear.

Once we have safeguarded that then by all means let's address misunderstandings, injustices and so on and forth

Then we will be safeguarding forever. For every defense, there is a way to circumvent it. For every barrier, there is an achilles heel. I do not want to live in fear forever. I'm sure you do not want to do the same.

Craig believes that 9/11 is completely not America's fault. He believes that America has done no wrong to anyone. Thus, he thinks we should get rid of all muslims states and all muslim people. Right....because have genocide on our records is always a good thing. 9/11 is heavily America's fault for many reasons. The amount of damage and hate we have caused over there, the inability to rectifiy that hate before it happened, the ignorance to their cultural beliefs. If we fricking paid ANY attention, we wouldn't have this problem.

[nova_satori]

I have no idea what he rants on about KK. Vile, spite, stupidity. Best to ignore it. To people like that guy, freedom has meaning, history no lessons, pre-emption no cause.

Because you are blind to your own ignorance and your own hate.

Everyone here has seen hundreds of your vile, spiteful, hateful, intolerant posts clammoring for severe change that will hamper and harm the world. Do not even try to hide that.

STOP LYING. Fricking stop. I was the one, in a thread, KK asked me to write, who argued that without a understanding of the past, the fundemental causes and beliefs, this war will never end. Unless you'd like to change the past and edit the archives, STFU.

Freedom in your mind is genocide of all people who dissent from your views.

Pre-emptiveness with no evidence, pre-emptiveness to move the mind of the public from their wallets to a war, pre-emptivenss to get re-elected, that I do not condone.

Apparently you do.

[KrustyKidd]

I do not live in fear Nova. I agree with the way this problem is being handled. There is more to this than simply "understanding." You seem to think that the US and it's policies are to blame. I, on the other hand think that even if the US were twice as benevolent and did not support Israel that it would have been attacked anyways. OBL and his ilk do not desire world peace whether it ends with their side winning with a worldwide theocracy or not. They desire power and use the Great Satan as a focal point to place others under them and be leaders where in another world they would be nothing. Kind of like wanting to be a rock star but not caring whether the music is any good or not. Granted, if things were different and we all walked around in purple dinosaur outfits hugging each other they would have to change their battle cry but the end would be the same. A common hatred and chanting and lots of suicide and death, only with a different reason.

Yes, in retrospect there are a lot of things that should have been done different. It is apparent today that things that made sense twenty and fitfy years ago were not without a price. However to blame that solely on the US is wrong. Times change, and what may have worked before doesn't work now. I think you and I talked before and my point I think is still valid; Understand and reach out if you will, these societies are not like they were before, isolated and harmless but to few westerers and seldom seen in the first world. They are very much as they were before, primitive, superstitious and devoutly religious but now are overloaded by modern society and globalism withut the ability and political process to deal properly with it. In short, they have had the 21st century dropped on them and they are not ready. Turmoil and anarchy are breeding grounds for terror and fasism both of which are widespread throughout the middle east. Come to undrstanding with purposful agitation? I think that it while not impossible is a bigger problem than either the left or the right imagine.

[Craig Read]

Defence, security, safety, these are the PRIME concern and priorities of governments. To sit idly by as Clinton did, is nonsensical, dangerous and immoral. Pre-emption and redrawing the Middle Eastern map is the only option open. All else has failed.

On WMD I believe they will be found. Kay had this to say Friday:

Kay told a group of reporters Friday that one scientist was assassinated with a bullet in the back of the head, and another sustained six bullet wounds, but is alive.

Iraqis helping the Americans have real "grounds for paranoia," Kay said, and members of the Iraq Survey Group are trying to address that to get the "essential" help of Iraqis to find weapons of mass destruction and programs designed to create them.

"Don't be surprised by surprises in Iraq," Kay told reporters.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear KK,You seem to think that the US and it's policies are to blame.

While I think the US is not solely to blame, they must take share in the blame.

The US is not hated because they are 'rich'. It is their policies and aggression that are hated. Getting rich from the resources of others, through foriegn policy and military might, as well as supporting dictators, that is what is hated.

Some think that the US is above reproach, when this is simply not true. Terrorism must be countered, to be sure, but it is a method, not a place or thing. It is like 'guerilla warfare', (less noble and moral of course) but undefeatable as it has no 'existence'.

[KrustyKidd]

QUOTE theloniusfleabag,Oct 4 2003, 03:17 PM

" Dear KK,You seem to think that the US and it's policies are to blame."

KK

I must have misunderstood you Lonius as the argument that I put forth was not one of the USA being to blame but rather the whole situation of agitation, primitive beliefs, envy, inability to change politically and simply charismatic people taking advantage of people was. In this the USA is only an evil of convenience rather than the real villan.

My quote;

"I, on the other hand think that even if the US were twice as benevolent and did not support Israel that it would have been attacked anyways."

This does not mean that they are exxonerated from wrong doing but for the world to realize that they are simply cast as villans in a deadly play. If Canada were the world's superpower they would hold that dubious honor. Who plays the other parts? Victim - any mismanaged dictatorship. Monarchies that have starving populations due to greed of rulers can fill this role as well along with dozens of others. Good guys and men in white - anybody unwilling to make a substancial difference in stopping death and starvation by inflicting posititve change on unwilling rulers who like the staus quo. Walk on parts - anybody that wants to say something that we all know or something that is accepted already by one side or the other. Lip service from Liberal Eleaches.

Yes, we have to rewrite the script with imput from all parties but first we have to close this show down.

[nova_satori]

my whole point is that to think that the US is completely without any blame is ludicrious.

[KrustyKidd]

It is. And the same the other way as well. To make them out to be the true evil is taking away from correct action. It is not simply a matter of understanding, compassion and religion. There are forces of personal power and greed, unwillingness to change political systems to meet a changing world, unwarrented and warrented anger and decisions made by emotion rather than logic. These are on all sides. Note the French who one week said that the ruling council of Iraq would not be recognised as they were unable to hold power and then a week later they said the US must leave Iraq immediatley and turn power over to the ruling council (who a week prior they thought were monkeys.) A well thought out proper recommendation? No. Just being a snitty bitch.

To hold to one course of action is not the way to sove this new problem. It is bigger than one simple solution and requires yes, understanding of other cultures, military might, money, world co operation and most of all the willingness of the world's better off nations to drop the ego plays and work together to stop this steamroller of terrorism,

[Craig Read]

KK, good post. Another poor attempt at blaming the US

Getting rich from the resources of others, through foriegn policy and military might, as well as supporting dictators, that is what is hated.

I want backup for that statement. The US economy is 75 % domestic. Its biggest oil supplier is Canada. Its MNC's have plants and offices around the world paying more than local wages. It is the biggest funder of the UN and NGOs and is the biggest foreign aid donor directly and indirectly in the world. List in detail the plundering of resources by country and the dollar value please.

I am waiting for the list. You should also subtract the country's exports and FDI in the US market. Rape means that there is no economic exchange. It is theft. So support that as well.

The Arabs got rich off of their black gold. You use it, Canada uses it, the EU uses it. The Arab elite kept the money, did not allow democracy or liberal constitutions to be developed and kept their people ignorant under the veil of orthodox Islam inciting them to hate the West. Please list in detail how the fascist-Islamo nations and their illiberalism is the fault of the US. Also list your solution to this problem, omitting of course US help, aid or military intervention since such actions are in your view, beyond the pale.

Second on foreign policy and military might - back this up. 16 out of 19 NATO nations supported Gulf War II, and 40 in total. 48 backed Gulf War I. Somalia was a UNO inspired disaster. Kosovo was ended only with US intervention after Blair begged Clinton to intervene.

List in detail the foreign policy issues that are wrong and the military engagements that are incorrect. Also attach good reasons why they are incorrect. List as well YOUR solutions for them. Also include Canada's role and how Canada would have stopped the crisis.

Blaming the US with such banal statements as the quote above is truly appalling and should be banned from this website.

It is racism, pure and simple without foundation.

[KrustyKidd]

So true Craig. I would assume that in this Liberal Bizzarro world that if one of your employees takes his or her paycheck and does not buy food for his or her family that is your fault? You Sir, are truely evil. Paying people for services and or products, you brute!

I'll bet that if you depend on them to keep your business afloat and when they don't show up for work your phone calls and inquires to their whereabouts and intentions are a severe infringement on their way of life you bastard. I don't know what kind of operation you are running Craig but if you think that you can ask people to be stable and show up for work and produce what they said they could you are out of line Sir. Just like your God the USA does. Imagine trying to buy a product off a third world government, who do they think they are?

[Craig Read]

KK, I agree. The entire premise of the US is freedom and the ability to pursue one's own interests. I have no doubt there many issues with the US, nor do i doubt it needs reform. But on the face of the planet it is the beacon that calls people, appealing to their minds and their hearts. There is a reason why the human flow of migration is one way. The system of capital while imperfect is a better and more moral method for organising society than socialism. My workers can leave. They can argue with me. They can bargain for more money. They can go work with my competitors. I always tell them, if you see a better opportunity go take it. Protect yourself, manage yourself, think for yourself, i tell them. On the other hand if we work together than maybe we will reap the rewards as a team and build unique products.

Freedom of association. Trust me the Iraqi's are HAPPY to have the US there. Very happy.

[KrustyKidd]

Well, that matter is settled. Close the thread.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear KK,

Lol.

Dear Mr. Read,

Very well put, Mr. Read.

I would only ask that you clarify 'socialism' vs. capitalism (as Canada is a mixed economy) and ask "what % of Iraqis are happy with the US occupation". I would imagine a few of the oil executives would be, but they would constitute less than 1%.

If this were true, the Iraqis are 'happy' with the invasion, the international community should back off, regarding the US as the 'Shining Path' to riches and glory.

[KrustyKidd]

Lonius, like teenagers at home while the parents go away for the weekend I'm sure all Iraqis do not like the American occupation. Teens can keep it together until the rent is due or a fuse blows. To have the US pull out is simply making every Iraqi/American/WTC death in vain. If they were to do that they might as well open up a US sponsered Al Queda training camp and have Starlifters fly in terrorists to attend it. No sense holding back the inevitable. On the other hand, a year? Enough time to train people in Iraq on how to do stuff for themselves, is that really too much to ask? Enough time to get power going and stop the terrorists who blow it nightly? Too much to ask? It's not like the Americans are in there lining people who can't whistle Dixie up against a wall and shooting them for God's sake.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear KK,

I agree with most of your post, except linking WTC to Iraq. I will not use the word 'evidence' or any other, for they are linked to Osama, not Saddam.

Earlier I had read a post regarding some nonsense about 'the enemy of your enemy is your friend'. Israel and Jordan both allowed Hamas to gain money and funds in the vain hope that Hamas would 'supercede' the PLO. As the Intifada gained momentum in 1987, Hamas was non-violent in their first year. Israel blocked PLO funds, and allowed Hamas to gain funds and followers, as did Jordan. Looking back, OOOOPS!. However, the lesson that was ignored was 'always do what is right'. Forget abetting your enemy's enemy.

[KrustyKidd]

I didn't mean to link it in that way. The WTC was the catalyst that set this curse of events in motion. Not to say they would not have happened anyhow on a different time shedule. I in no way meant to say that Saddam had anything to do with it. Matter of fact I would bet good money he had nothing to do with it. Ever been to camp when you were a kid or been on the football team when the coach got po'd for some kid doing something wrong and lays down new rules? It would seem that he suddenly became aware that there was a problem that he had hoped could be dealt with in another way or would disappear on its own. It's kind of like that, a reminder that all is not well.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear KK,

You are right. All is not well. I understand what you mean by 'catalyst' and if, in the end, the world becomes a better place, the victims of 9/11, victims of the holocaust, victims of tyranny will be the ones remembered as martyrs, instead of the perpetrators.

Mankind has a long way to go before tomorrow.