Canada wihtout Bush?

[gerryhatrick]

Actually, I can remember many of the protests when Canada sent troops to Afghanistan. At first they were muted after September 11 but they grew in intensity throughout the Liberal government and especially when they moved the troops to southern Afghanistan

Um we didn't send any troops to Afghanistan until after sept. 11 so what you are you talking about?

He didn't say otherwise, so what are you talking about?

You've been told that the movement calling for Canada to get out of Aftghanistan existed prior to Harper taking office. I've seen the signs, heard the chants. Another poster did as well.

[jdobbin]

Actually, I can remember many of the protests when Canada sent troops to Afghanistan. At first they were muted after September 11 but they grew in intensity throughout the Liberal government and especially when they moved the troops to southern Afghanistan

Um we didn't send any troops to Afghanistan until after sept. 11 so what you are you talking about? No, they were "muted" until the liberals left office.

lol. No they DID NOT grow in "intensity" throughout the Liberal government rule - what country were you living in? They grew in intensity the moment Harper got in -- even BEFORE the LONG PLANNED move to southern Afghanistan....just the same way they were calling him a Bush-bot even before he got into office.

The peace movement is nothing more than an opposition vehicle.

I was referring to the climate following September 11. Canadian troops were present in 2002.

The first protests started that same year in Vancouver and Winnipeg and Toronto and Montreal.

http://www.workingtv.com/vigilsforpeaceandjustice.html

[normanchateau]

Harper as always had libertarian leanings but I believe he has actually described himself as a classical liberal (economics and limited gov't) - he has never been a social conservative.

Of course he's a social conservative. How else do you explain his position on the decriminalization of marijuana? In 2003, SES Research reported that 69% of Canadians favoured decriminalization. In a breakdown by party support, a majority of those planning to vote Liberal, NDP or BQ supported decriminalization. Even among Canadian Alliance supporters, 50% favoured decriminalization. Harper has positioned himself among the most socially conservative 50% of former Canadian Alliance supporters who believe in criminal records and potential jail sentences for simple position of a few grams of marijuana.

[killjoy]

I was referring to the climate following September 11. Canadian troops were present in 2002.

Ok but it seemed you were implying there were protests before sept.11 and then they were muted.

The first protests started that same year in Vancouver and Winnipeg and Toronto and Montreal.

That there were the UBIQUITIOUS and EVER PRESENT rallies here and there I never disputed. There would've been rallies against intervention in Rwanda - Im sure many would claim it was all about oil - so that doesn't mean anything.

The FACT is that nothing really got rolling until Harper came in and it jumped 10-fold the moment the Liberals left power. You guys can go right ahead and deny it all you want .

jdobbin you're about the only one here I'd believe if they said they were genuine - but I think you know exactly what I'm talking about when I say it's fashion for most.

.

[jdobbin]

Ok but it seemed you were implying there were protests before sept.11 and then they were muted.

That there were the UBIQUITIOUS and EVER PRESENT rallies here and there I never disputed. There would've been rallies against intervention in Rwanda - Im sure many would claim it was all about oil - so that doesn't mean anything.

The FACT is that nothing really got rolling until Harper came in and it jumped 10-fold the moment the Liberals left power. You guys can go right ahead and deny it all you want .

jdobbin you're about the only one here I'd believe if they said they were genuine - but I think you know exactly what I'm talking about when I say it's fashion for most..

The only people I remember actually protesting the actual invasion were Quakers and Mennonites in 2001. I can still remember seeing some of them in Winnipeg at the time but we are familiar with their pacifism. I don't hold it against them. Most other criticism was muted in the shock of September 11.

The first semi-organized protests came in 2002. Those you would probably categorize as being the usual suspects you'd find at such protests. In 2005, I noticed the numbers had started to increase. That was during Paul Martin's time.

There is a marked increase again this year but I also see something that I didn't see in 2005, rallies for the troops.

Harper has borne the brunt of criticism lately for the Liberal move to the south. He probably would have borne a lot less of it if he hadn't extended the mission. Likewise, he probably waited too long to explain the mission to Canadians because all anyone saw this summer were casualties. Those doubts about the mission were only temporarily relieved by Karzai's visit.

[scribblet]

Many of the so called peace protests and rallies in the U.S. are organized by International A.N.S.W.E.R. an anti-war front group for the MarxistLeninist Worker's World Party I'm not sure how much if any involvment they have in Canada.

Dissent against war is legitimate but betrayal isn't, it goes beyond that when they take a conscious action against their own country in favour of another non friendly country.

[Canadian Blue]

I noticed the protests got worse once Harper got in. It's all purely hypocritical, what Harper is doing in Afghanistan right now would have been the same as what Martin would have done. The only difference is Harper is putting more money into defence so we have better equipment.

[Ricki Bobbi]

I noticed the protests got worse once Harper got in. It's all purely hypocritical, what Harper is doing in Afghanistan right now would have been the same as what Martin would have done. The only difference is Harper is putting more money into defence so we have better equipment.

We also have a military that feels more self-assured because the commitment to the military and the mission is not in doubt ... anymore.

[normanchateau]

We also have a military that feels more self-assured because the commitment to the military and the mission is not in doubt ... anymore.

The committment to the mission of defending the corrupt, Islamic fundamentalist theocracy in Afghanistan will certainly hurt Harper's re-election prospects, particularly in Quebec and British Columbia.

[Ricki Bobbi]

The committment to the mission of defending the corrupt, Islamic fundamentalist theocracy in Afghanistan will certainly hurt Harper's re-election prospects, particularly in Quebec and British Columbia.

*IF* Iggy doesn't win the leadership.

BC is a tight, hard-fought province. What current CPC ridings would it hurt in?

The left-leaning ridings are all NDP or Liberal already.

Quebeckers are going to be caught up in the "Nation" issue.

The Conservatives will be the only true nationalist option in Quebec ... Afghanistan will be a sconed or third issue.

[normanchateau]

The committment to the mission of defending the corrupt, Islamic fundamentalist theocracy in Afghanistan will certainly hurt Harper's re-election prospects, particularly in Quebec and British Columbia.

The left-leaning ridings are all NDP or Liberal already.

Quebeckers are going to be caught up in the "Nation" issue.

The Conservatives will be the only true nationalist option in Quebec ... Afghanistan will be a sconed or third issue.

Good, I hope all the CPC policy strategists share your view.

[Murray B.]

Just wondering what people think is going to happen to Harper now that his puppet master is losing control of his country.. With no Bush propping him up and telling him what to say, Harper isn't going to last very long.. This is the beginning of the end for the conservatives.. I'm really going to enjoy watching this..

How odd. Which Bush is propping him, is it George W. or George senior?

What I think happened was that more Canadians dislike central Canadians than dislike the U.S. Americans. Of course stopping the fuddle duddling of election results in some city ridings helped. If more of the vote were honest then the Conservatives might even get a majority.

Of course.that can only happen if they keep their "ibble". That is rely"ibble", sense"ibble", cape"ibble", etc. Right now it looks like they are getting caught up in Ottawa lunacy and that sort of stupidity could make it anybodys' game.

[normanchateau]

If more of the vote were honest then the Conservatives might even get a majority.

Why not just ban those political parties which aren't honest? Then the Conservatives would get 100% of the "honest" vote.

The Conservatives' 2005 statements on the evils of parliamentary floor crosssing, the evils of appointing unelected senators and the evils of taxing income trusts have been mis-interpreted by the "dishonest"

opposition parties.

[Mimas]

I noticed the protests got worse once Harper got in. It's all purely hypocritical, what Harper is doing in Afghanistan right now would have been the same as what Martin would have done. The only difference is Harper is putting more money into defence so we have better equipment.

We also have a military that feels more self-assured because the commitment to the military and the mission is not in doubt ... anymore.

Yep, the mission is not in doubt anymore. It is guaranteed to fail. Not that we will be told that it failed. The US will declare victory and sneak out of there just as they will do in Iraq. Afghanistan will be the same freaking mess as it has always been and what we'll get is billions in $$ wasted there, a couple of hundred of dead soldiers, a thousand or so injured and mentally ill soldiers, who will end up struggling with their disabilities and whom we will forget right away (except for paying them small pensions) and what we'll think is the right to brag about how great we are and how we fought for freedom and democracy and blah, blah. Sounds like a great deal, doesn't it?

[Canadian Blue]

Yep, the mission is not in doubt anymore. It is guaranteed to fail. Not that we will be told that it failed. The US will declare victory and sneak out of there just as they will do in Iraq. Afghanistan will be the same freaking mess as it has always been and what we'll get is billions in $$ wasted there, a couple of hundred of dead soldiers, a thousand or so injured and mentally ill soldiers, who will end up struggling with their disabilities and whom we will forget right away (except for paying them small pensions) and what we'll think is the right to brag about how great we are and how we fought for freedom and democracy and blah, blah. Sounds like a great deal, doesn't it?

How do you know that?

How do you know what soldiers lives are like, I'm in the military and so far haven't seen the same dire mood that you have regarding the mission. Go to army.ca on the forums and spew that same post there and see the kind of response you get from soldiers who have been to Afghanistan.

[normanchateau]

How do you know what soldiers lives are like, I'm in the military and so far haven't seen the same dire mood that you have regarding the mission. Go to army.ca on the forums and spew that same post there and see the kind of response you get from soldiers who have been to Afghanistan.

Maintaining morale requires that attitude. I'd be surprised if soldiers trying to do their job would want to maintain a negative attitude.

No offense intended CB but it is conceivable that the German soldiers marching to Stalingrad might have had a positive attitude...at least initially.

[Canadian Blue]

Thats one of the most ignorant comparison's I have ever heard regarding the Afghan mission yet.

First of all the Taliban engages in Guerilla warfare not conventional warfare unlike the Soviets and German's in World War 2. As well the Taliban would be hard pressed to surround the Canadian Forces similar to how the German's were defeated. So your knowledge is pretty ignorant with regard to World history as well.

Soldiers are free to express whatever feelings they want on the mission once they are out of the military. I think its a pretty positive sign that no soldiers have come out against the war in Afghanistan like the American's did in Vietnam.

Soldiers would and do have a negative attitude if they believe the job they are doing has no cause, or no good comes out of it. You'd be surprised, but many soldiers do look into what goes on in Afghanistan and the situation surrounding it.

As well I'm sure the few Nations [well over 30] would be able to help Canada if we ever got surrounded like the German's at Stalingrad. We have so far had around 43 deaths, compare that to 600 in Korea, and around 100,000 in the two world wars.

Norman do you even know anybody thats a current member of the CF???

[normanchateau]

Soldiers are free to express whatever feelings they want on the mission once they are out of the military. I think its a pretty positive sign that no soldiers have come out against the war in Afghanistan like the American's did in Vietnam.

Wrong again CB.

"Canadian Soldier Describes Why He Abandoned Military Over Afghan Mission"

Source:

http://auto_sol.tao.ca/node/view/2328

[Canadian Blue]

That guy was a reservist officer cadet who wasn't at risk of going over to Afghanistan. Many soldiers currently serving have pointed out that he lied about his possible deployment to Afghanistan.

The military relented somewhat. They fined the B.C. native $500 and discharged him without honour. But Juarez doesn't regret his disobedience for a second. He says he was being groomed to become a second lieutenant and would have been in Kandahar by early next year. Morally I could have sat back and said, 'You're paid to do a job. Just do it and shut up.' But I decided I couldn't, he said in an interview Saturday.

The only way he could have gone overseas is if he volunteered to. Reservists do not have the same obligations as Regular force members and can leave the CF anytime they want. A friend of mine is a Pte with the reserves and the only way he can go over is if he volunteers.

But it wasn't just the awkward pauses and heated exchanges that became more frequent. So did the moments of doubt. By the end of his first week of training this spring at Gagetown, where he carried a rifle all day long and learned about handling grenades, Juarez knew he wanted out. He spoke to his wife Diane every night on the phone. He chatted for hours at a time with the army chaplain. He did not, however, go around discussing his doubts too often with his army buddies. They probably wouldn't relate to him.

I carried a rifle all day in St Jean as well, and threw grenades and fired machine guns in Gagetown. He joined the Army not the peace corps. Sounds more like somebody that couldn't hack it.

The NDP invited Juarez to its policy convention this weekend, its members proud to meet a veritable war-resister on the same day their party voted to pull Canadian troops out of Afghanistan. But Juarez quickly sets the record straight.

Another reason why I won't vote for the NDP. He was never in danger of going over to Afghanistan in the first place. The only people who could be forced to go over are Reg force members.

I am familiar with the guy, and he is no war resister. He was in no danger of going over to Afghanistan, and just couldn't hack it.

A reservist can leave the military anytime they want, and are not under the same obligations as members of the Regular Force.

So once again you are wrong.

[Alexandra]

Wrong again CB.

"Canadian Soldier Describes Why He Abandoned Military Over Afghan Mission"

Source:

http://auto_sol.tao.ca/node/view/2328

Francisco Juarez is an example of the Afghan Mission?

"Juarez joined the navy in 2002, lured by the promise of a steady salary. He got a transfer to the reserves last year because it allowed him more time to complete his justice-studies degree at Royal Roads University. His family was upset. They were skeptical about the military, and conversations with his parents grew increasingly tense as the possibility of battle drew closer.

By the end of his first week of training this spring at Gagetown, where he carried a rifle all day long and learned about handling grenades, Juarez knew he wanted out. He spoke to his wife Diane every night on the phone. He chatted for hours at a time with the army chaplain. He did not, however, go around discussing his doubts too often with his army buddies. They probably wouldn't relate to him."

Wonder why his 'army buddies' wouldn't relate to him. sniffle, sniffle.

And to quote from this website to prove your point?

"The Autonomy & Solidarity website is produced and maintained by a network of anti-capitalists who believe that revolutionary transformation will come from the self organization of workers and oppressed people."

Sheesh.

[normanchateau]

A reservist can leave the military anytime they want, and are not under the same obligations as members of the Regular Force.

I see. So even though he was discharged from the military, he was not a soldier.

"In reality he believed that the mission in Afghanistan was ill-conceived, that political dialogue and not military might is the quickest path to stability in that country. But you can't say to the military, 'I don't believe in the mission in Afghanistan and I don't believe in war-making,' he said. You can't do that. The military doesn't speak that language.

He was brought before the head of the infantry school the next day and told that he would regret the move for the rest of his life, that he would forever be a failure. Juarez kept on with the course for a few more days. Back in Victoria, B.C., his wife spoke to his reserve unit and they asked to see another memo. That's when he was marched before a series of captains for a barrage of one-on-one interviews in Gagetown. Buck up, is how Juarez describes their message. The only way you're getting out of this course is by signing the end-of-course report. They were wrong. He ended it that same week around 5 a.m. before setting foot on the obstacle course, when he refused to participate. He was read his rights an hour later, charged the next day, and discharged from the military over the summer."