Minimum Wage Proposal $10.00 hour

[Renegade]

Do you really think an individual would have any input at all? I don't. Company ABC pays $5 a day -- put up with it or be unemployed. That is slave labour IMO.

Do I think an individual would have input into the conditions a company offers? No not at all, nor should they. But an individual does have input into the decision on whether he/she accepts the company's offer. That is the difference between a free market and slave labour. An individual is free not to accept the work, a slave isn't.

No human being in their right mind would willingly work for poverty level wages. Those who currently work for wages at the poverty level do not do so out of choice.

No human being in their right mind would willing work for less in compensation than their skills can command. If they are only being offered positions which command a wage less than minimium wage, that is an indication that there is very little market value for their skills. The solution for them is to upgrade their skills or make other changes to make them more valued to employers. The solution is not to mandate that employers pay them higher.

In order to maintain a decent society and not exploit workers, we need a minimum wage set for us. Especially when unemployment is high.

There is no question that minimium wage causes unemployment, so it is not logical to say that you need a minimium wage when unemployment is high.

What exactly do you mean by "exploit"? If there is a willing exchange of labour for compensation between one party and another party is that exploitation? In areas like Alberta which suffers from labour shortages, labour commands considerably higher rates than they otherwise would. In this case do you consider the employer exploited?

Here are some good articles which explode the myths expoused on minimium wage:

The Minimum Wage Vision

A Glimmer of Hope: The Unusual Backlash Against Minimum Wage

Minimum Wage, Maximum Folly

[Drea]

Wages must correspond with the cost of living.

Can you live on $5 an hour? Can you pay rent? Hydro? Eat?

I used to make $5 back in the day when rent was $250 per month. Today you would be hardpressed to find a one bedroom for under $600 (even in the smallest of towns).

If an employee must work and the employer is offering $5 an hour, how can the employee refuse? He has to eat doesn't he?

Or would you rather that wages were so low that welfare was considered "rich"?

[geoffrey]

Wages must correspond with the cost of living.

Can you live on $5 an hour? Can you pay rent? Hydro? Eat?

I used to make $5 back in the day when rent was $250 per month. Today you would be hardpressed to find a one bedroom for under $600 (even in the smallest of towns).

If an employee must work and the employer is offering $5 an hour, how can the employee refuse? He has to eat doesn't he?

Or would you rather that wages were so low that welfare was considered "rich"?

Welfare is the problem with abandoning minimum wage legislation. It will discourage people from working if welfare is more profitable.

I do suggest, however, that a bare minimum standard of welfare (the cheapest accomodations possible + bread and water) and no minimum wage would be possible.

Drea you ignore the fact that minimum wages create unemployment. Instead of accepting the $5 an hour job, they now don't work.

You also ignore an astonishing fact when you really look at it. Minimum wage workers are generally kids, living at home. No big deal, who cares if they make $2 an hour, I sure don't. If your an adult in the workplace, in the labour situation that we have right now, and your making minimum wage... it's only the result of a VERY poor set of choices in life. Carrying lumber from trucks to a pile pays about double minimum wage, it doesn't take much ability to make a liveable income.

So really, it's a big raise for kids. That's it. And it's unneccessary and detracts from productivity.

[Slavik44]

Wages must correspond with the cost of living.

Can you live on $5 an hour? Can you pay rent? Hydro? Eat?

I used to make $5 back in the day when rent was $250 per month. Today you would be hardpressed to find a one bedroom for under $600 (even in the smallest of towns).

If an employee must work and the employer is offering $5 an hour, how can the employee refuse? He has to eat doesn't he?

Or would you rather that wages were so low that welfare was considered "rich"?

I would rather people be able to make decisions on their own behalf. You are missing one key ingredient, everyone is focusing on the worker, as if the worker is the only one who wants something. While th eworker wants employment, we cannot forget that the employer also wants an employee. That is why very few people earn minimium wage in the first place, that is why 98% of American Labourers earn more then minimium wage, not because managers are a bunch of fools, but because they need to attract employees. They have a need, and if someone cannot live off $5 an hour, if someone can't work for $5 and hour then then the company that is looking for an employee will also be forfieting potential profits. And if that company can find someone to fill that position for $5 an hour, then you need to go back to kindergarten and learn how to read and write to expand your marketable skillset. Besides that, if you suddenly set minimium wage at $10 an hour, you cannot forget that you would most likely be forcing that same person on to welfare anyways, becuase you are still pricing them out of the labour force.

[Renegade]

Wages must correspond with the cost of living.

Why? And what is the cost of living? Is it the cost of living of someone with 5 kids, or is it the cost of a living of a student living at home with the parents?

Can you live on $5 an hour? Can you pay rent? Hydro? Eat?

No I can't, and even if I could I wouldn't accept such a wage because I can command a higher wage. The choice should be mine to accept or decline it.

I used to make $5 back in the day when rent was $250 per month. Today you would be hardpressed to find a one bedroom for under $600 (even in the smallest of towns).

If an employee must work and the employer is offering $5 an hour, how can the employee refuse? He has to eat doesn't he?

The employee can refuse by seeking out an employer who values his skills at more than $5/hour and would offer him a correspondingly higher wage. Even if the worker temporarily accepted the work at $5/hour, the are free to look for better paid employment. An employer who offers positions at $5/hour either would have to be willing to withstand high employee turnover or raise wages to the level where employees are retained.

As to your second question, that "he has to eat, doesn't he?", of course he does. If $5/hour doesn't pay enough so that he eats or can sustain himself, he will soon be incapable of working, thus the employment situation will terminate anyway. It is in the employers advantage to offer wages enough to sustain the employee otherwise the employeer would constantly be sourcing new employees. This natural pressure for a stable situation does not requre minimium wage legislation.

Or would you rather that wages were so low that welfare was considered "rich"?

No, I wish wages were high so that no one needed to be on welfare, however I don't think wealth can be leglislated. The availability of welfare also sets a floor rate under which, no rational person would accept a lower wage. Thus minimium wage legislation is unnecessary, and if the wage is set high enough can be disruptive.

I also object to govenment interferring in the free ability of individuals to decide for themselves what wage they will or won't accept.

One of the things that government and many people overlook is that employers have a choice. They can decide that the minimium cost of labour is too high, and they can persue lower cost alternatives, such as automation, offshoring, or driving additional productivity out of existing staff. All of these are worse alternatives for the potential employee than accepting a lower wage.

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Something you have said before, I'm curious about:

While this may work in China or North Korea, it would never fly here.

Why do you think that no or low minimium wage would work in China or North Korea?

[geoffrey]

Again, no one actually works for minimum wage other than children and those that can't function in society and likely get some sort of social assistance anyways.

No need to increase it.

[Riverwind]

Again, no one actually works for minimum wage other than children

That statement is not accurate:

A sizeable proportion (28%) of minimum wage workers were aged 25 to 54, many of them women. For these individuals in their core working and peak earning years, minimum wage work is likely not a transitory phase.

http://www.statcan.ca/english/studies/75-0...omm/2005_09.pdf

[Mimas]

Again, no one actually works for minimum wage other than children and those that can't function in society and likely get some sort of social assistance anyways.

No need to increase it.

When I was a CA student, my firm paid me significantly less than minimum wage. They know that you need 30 months of experience before you can get your CA designation and they will treat you like a slave until you get that designation. That's disgusting and amounts to extortion in my opinion. After a few months I decided the heck with it, I didn't like accounting much anyway. It was a very good decision but I watched my classmates go through it. It is demeaning and disgusting. If you argue for sweatshops, go work in one for 30 months.

[geoffrey]

Again, no one actually works for minimum wage other than children and those that can't function in society and likely get some sort of social assistance anyways.

No need to increase it.

When I was a CA student, my firm paid me significantly less than minimum wage. They know that you need 30 months of experience before you can get your CA designation and they will treat you like a slave until you get that designation. That's disgusting and amounts to extortion in my opinion. After a few months I decided the heck with it, I didn't like accounting much anyway. It was a very good decision but I watched my classmates go through it. It is demeaning and disgusting. If you argue for sweatshops, go work in one for 30 months.

I'm going down that path right now Mimas, and I can tell you I'm not being "extorted"... back when accountants weren't in demand I've heard the horror stories...

Who'd you article with if I may ask? I'd glady hear any of the inside stories, I haven't made my commitment to any firm yet.

I've worked a term in public practice, and yup it sucks. I'm still not done my CASB requirements so I'm not off to the real slave labour yet, but I'm sure it will be 30 months of really brutal work. But the CA is worth it long term. I can finish my B.Comm and head off to oil and gas the next day and make $60k easy a year, I'm making that now in school. Or I can suffer for the $40-45 that you get doing CA artcling and make the real money in the long term. I'm working industry right now during the school year and making an absolute killing for my age and experience, but I'll still go do the 30 months of hell for the long-term gain.

There is an opportunity cost, and it's up to the person to decide whether the short or long term is the better way to go.

The starting wages as published by the big four range from $16-20 an hour in Alberta for summer students, higher for articling students. That's not minimum wage extortion considering the CA amounts to a graduate education... all education 'costs' you, right.

I think you'll find it hard to convince anyone that a CA artcling student is being extorted with the long term earnings potential.

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River, do you honestly believe these people can't find more gainful labour? DQ down the street pays $12/hr, why not apply there?

With all the shortages and skyrocketing wages for ridiculous jobs I really struggle with the thought that people earn minimum wage because there isn't anything better.

[Riverwind]

River, do you honestly believe these people can't find more gainful labour? DQ down the street pays $12/hr, why not apply there?

DQ won't hire people that have difficulty with English.

[Mimas]

River, do you honestly believe these people can't find more gainful labour? DQ down the street pays $12/hr, why not apply there?

Do you seriously believe that there are no people in this country who can't get jobs? Those Albertan boom times are really getting to your head. One day, please do visit some other parts of the country. Northern Quebec and NFLD come to mind as a good places to visit and realize that this country is not all downtown Calgary. There are plenty of places where unemployment runs above 50% and people can't even move because they've lived their whole lives there and the only thing they are capable of doing is fish. And the fish is gone. And they have kids and can't afford to move far away to go to through training. And they aren't even able to go through training because they can barely read. It really is quite shocking that there are 3rd world places in this country but they do exist. You think those people can get $12/hr at the DQ in a place like that? Even boom times don't last forever. Do you think you could get $12/hr at the DQ in Calgary in 1991?

[geoffrey]

Then they need to move somewhere that has jobs. I'm not interesting in funding other people's fear of change.

If the oil market died tomorrow, and I lost my job, I'd be back in Ontario without a second thought, or moving south.

[geoffrey]

River, do you honestly believe these people can't find more gainful labour? DQ down the street pays $12/hr, why not apply there?

DQ won't hire people that have difficulty with English.

You obviously haven't been to a Calgary retail establishment lately.

[Mimas]

Again, no one actually works for minimum wage other than children and those that can't function in society and likely get some sort of social assistance anyways.

No need to increase it.

When I was a CA student, my firm paid me significantly less than minimum wage. They know that you need 30 months of experience before you can get your CA designation and they will treat you like a slave until you get that designation. That's disgusting and amounts to extortion in my opinion. After a few months I decided the heck with it, I didn't like accounting much anyway. It was a very good decision but I watched my classmates go through it. It is demeaning and disgusting. If you argue for sweatshops, go work in one for 30 months.

I'm going down that path right now Mimas, and I can tell you I'm not being "extorted"... back when accountants weren't in demand I've heard the horror stories...

Who'd you article with if I may ask? I'd glady hear any of the inside stories, I haven't made my commitment to any firm yet.

The starting wages as published by the big four range from $16-20 an hour in Alberta for summer students, higher for articling students. That's not minimum wage extortion considering the CA amounts to a graduate education... all education 'costs' you, right.

I think you'll find it hard to convince anyone that a CA artcling student is being extorted with the long term earnings potential.

It's good that you are not being "extorted". You should consider yourself lucky. If you were a dozen years older, things wouldn't have been that pretty. What is really disgusting about CA firms is that there is such a crazy hierarchy there. Everyone is supposed to treat people one level above like gods and people one level below like dirt. It's almost like the cast system in India. I should to be treated with the respect I deserve and I don't want to treat people like dirt just because they happen to be younger than I am. I had classmates who were well into their 30s, worked 80hrs/wk and had to feed their kids on $4/hr. That's shit, man. On one side you got some nut screaming "Are you crazy? How am I supposed to live on $500K?", on the other someone is screaming at you cause they owe the gov't money (and you have no idea how rude some people get when they find out that they have to pay taxes). You should be paid $40/hr as a bare minimum just to take that abuse, not $4/hr. Anyway, what I'm saying here is that just because things are going better for you now, that doesn't mean that they will always be good and for everyone. You never know when the next recession is going to hit. Especially with the housing bubble in the US which may burst any time. Things can change overnight.

PS. I was with BDO. Not a bad firm - it's across the country, yet many of it's offices are small enough to give you opportunities to learn. It's not much fun to get stuck for 2 months doing A/R of some giant corp. with one of the big four. That sounds weird, "the big four". By the time you graduate, it may just be "the big two". Anyway, good luck with that.

[Mimas]

Then they need to move somewhere that has jobs. I'm not interesting in funding other people's fear of change.

What, throw them to the wolves? Let them starve? A few hundred thousand Canadians can barely read but Harper had to cut the funding for adult literacy programs. Great policy. So instead of helping people to get back on their feet, we out to feed them for the rest of their lives. Guess which is cheaper.

If the oil market died tomorrow, and I lost my job, I'd be back in Ontario without a second thought, or moving south.

Easy to say, but the only way the oil market will die tomorrow is if plenty of other things die in Canada and the US tomorrow as well. In the 90s recession a friend of mine had 2 boxes of refusal letters from every office of every accounting firm in the country.

[geoffrey]

Then they need to move somewhere that has jobs. I'm not interesting in funding other people's fear of change.

What, throw them to the wolves? Let them starve? A few hundred thousand Canadians can barely read but Harper had to cut the funding for adult literacy programs. Great policy. So instead of helping people to get back on their feet, we out to feed them for the rest of their lives. Guess which is cheaper.

Literacy programs make sense to me. I wouldn't have cut them if they were effective.

If the oil market died tomorrow, and I lost my job, I'd be back in Ontario without a second thought, or moving south.

Easy to say, but the only way the oil market will die tomorrow is if plenty of other things die in Canada and the US tomorrow as well. In the 90s recession a friend of mine had 2 boxes of refusal letters from every office of every accounting firm in the country.

I'd have no problem switching fields or something like that if no work was available. I wouldn't just stay in Calgary, in the same field, hoping for things to change for 20+ years. That's rather ridiculous, don't you think?