Martin Becomes Beacon Of Canadian Conservatism

[Neal.F.]

The two conservative parties have utterly blown it, and have now ensured that Canada will be governed by the Liberals for many years to come, perhaps even in perpetuity. Many conservative voters will hold their noses

and vote for Paul Martin, because he is a businessman, and many have convinced themselves that he is one of them.

Perhaps Mr. Martin is more fiscally conservative than Jean Chretien, but that is not the issue. What is at stake here is that Canada may well fall under one party rule Serious players will now see the Liberal party as the institution through which all public policy will be formulated. It is wellfunded, and this is not likely to change now that Mr. Chretien has stacked the financing laws in their favour. There will be no serious money coming in to either the PC party or the Canadian Alliance, because frankly they have

not demonstated that they deserve any.

I said at the outset of these talks that the two parties must either come together, or they'll hang together. And this is precisely what is likely to happen. Stephen Harper may think he has the advantage, because now Peter

MacKay will be seen as doubly untrustworthy after 1) Signing the deal with David Orchard at the convention, and 2) reneging on said deal with Mr.Orchard on the issue of talking merger.

Mr Harper risks the whole thing being seen as more Alliance venality. At the end of the day, Mr Harper may come out ahead of the PCs, insofar as there may only be one of the two left standing after the Martin juggernaut rolls over the country next spring, but it may well be a Pyrrhic victory. While The PC Party may well lose Party status, or be all but obliterated, The Alliance may well return to parliament a bruised and bleeding rump from

Alberta with a couple of stragglers from BC and Saskatchewan, and possibly fewer than 30 seats. I have been made privy to some internal Liberal polling

that puts the NDP neck & neck with the Liberals in BC, a strong second in Manitoba and Saskatchewan and Third in Ontario. It may well be that the leader of Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition will be Jack Layton, as a result of the continued Conservative schism.

What is truly sad, is that if both party leaders had demonstrated a willingness to fall on their swords for the good of the country, a United Conservative Party under someone of the calibre of Mike Harris or Ralph

Klein could have given the Martin Liberals a real run for their money, and restored hope to the country. Now the likely result is the lowest voter turnout in history as the Liberals firmly establish themselves once and for

all as Canada's sole governing party. It may well be that the NDP might become the centre left alternative, and eventually become government.

Way to go, guys.

To quote Liberal strategist and spin Doctor Warren Kinsella, "It is truly a

great time to be a Liberal in Canada."

[dnsfurlan]

Neal, are things really as catastrophic as you make them out to be?

First, Paul Martin is Paul Martin. And it doesn't matter if there is one party on the Right or five parties on the Right, his juggenaut will play out as it will. I'm not sure what any entity on the Right could do about it.

And this idea that a conservative party could be formed within six months, install Mike Harris as its leader, and pose some kind of considerable threat to Martin has some serious flaws in it. Any way you look at it, the Right looks silly in the process.

In some ways I would rather see Harper continue his work. He's brought a professionalism to the Alliance we have not seen. He's organized. He's got the ideas. And he hasn't even begun campaigning, except out in the Atlantic.

And if Layton is so strong, a proposition over which I have some doubts, then wouldn't Martin also be vulnerable from any attack on the Left?

Besides, the dynamics of an election campaign, and its run-up, are the real tests of party and leadership. Some people think Layton is up to the challenge. I don't.

Furthermore, there will always be a Right in Canada. Harris will be there after the election. The fact the Martin is moving his party Right is another example of this.

I just don't see any reason for panic of gloom. We have the ideas. We have some time. We have a cool customer as leader of the Alliance. We have exaggerated expectations of Martin. We have Mackay as PC honcho.

Things could be worse. And things can only get better.

Remember, Harris came out of nowhere to win in Ontario. Bernard Lord did the same thing in NB.

Lots can happen before the next election. Lets not kill ourselves before we get there.

[Neal.F.]

It is as bad as that.

The Tories are dommed. You can take that to the bank. MacKay has shown he's not ready for the Big leagues, and Harper has probbaly overplayed his hand on this one. He should have done backflips to make it happen.. So what if Borotsik, Clark, Bachand and Brison would not play ball, leave them to their miserable destinies.

A few recalcitrant red tories sacrificed for the future of the movement? Small price to pay.

Now Harper will be painted as unreasonable whether this ios the case or not. And those who had supported him up to now, a significant number of them will say "to hell with it" and jump aboard the Martin bandwagon. Let's say 25% of allaince supporters jump. That could tip the scales in 7-10 Alberta ridings, and could hand a goodly number of BC & Saskatchewan ridings back to the NDP.

It is going to be a drubbing. And one from which Canada's system may never fully recover.

[Kiraly]

...and Harper has probbaly overplayed his hand on this one. He should have done backflips to make it happen.

Just curious...

...what would you have had Harper do?

Point 4 of the proposal negates the Alliance advantage of MPs in parliament by creating a governing body that has an equal number of representatives from both sides.

Point 6 of the proposal negates the progressives clear disadvantage of its large debt as the new party would assume it.

Seems like Harper gave up a lot already.

What did Mackay offer?

[Neal.F.]

He should have let MacKay walk away from the table. Then he would look like the one showing goodwill.

MacKay would look once again like a little weasel with no principles.

Now they both look foolish, and Canadians have run out of patience with both.

There needs to be a merger, and a changing of the guard. It may already be too late.

[dnsfurlan]

It is going to be a drubbing. And one from which Canada's system may never fully recover.

Yeah, and the sky is going to fall too.

[dnsfurlan]

He should have let MacKay walk away from the table. Then he would look like the one showing goodwill.

Mackay was playing the same game Joe Clark always played. Talk and talk and talk and never get anything done. The Alliance has better things to do, like get ready for the next election and provide a conservative alternative Canadians can sink their teeth into.

Its clear that a whole bunch of PCs don't want anything to do with the Alliance.

[theWatcher]

He should have let MacKay walk away from the table. Then he would look like the one showing goodwill.

I agree with the earlier posters. The PC's would have kept coming to the meetings for the next millenium.

They know how to play the game.

In three months they did not make a single proposal. They did not bring forth a single point. They could not agree on even the minutes of the meetings. Peter set an deadline of Labour day after Harper told him he reserved the entire months of July and August for the meetings.

The PC's never bothered to start until what, the 21, or 26th?

They never countered to any of the proposals.

Maybe harper should have kept his people going to. But he is not one to play games.

There was quite a bit of hysteria going along and it wouldn't have been good to let it build up too much as well.

Harper made the proposal he outlined a plan, all I heard from Mackay was Whining and insults.

Did anyone seriously think Peter was actually going to allow it to happen?

Who coined the term emissaries anyhow?

[Mr. Chater]

I wanted to see them merge and become one There goes all right hope

[Alliance Fanatic]

I think hope that the PC's are done politically. I thought that they would make an effort to join in a united right wing party. However they, seem to be headed down the path of destruction. I am hoping that the next election will bring about something new.

I think that the Alliance will be able to win, or gain some more seats based on the following.

-Paul Martin cannot react to criticism, he has been hiding out politically, the Alliance could capitalize on this, and we may see a moment like in the 84 election were Mulroney was able to become PM.

- Tories seem to be to close to the Liberals, they have always indicated their preference for Jean Chretien, Paul Martin, and Svend Robinson [scumbags] over more honorable men like Preston Manning, Stockwell Day, and Stephen Harper.

-Mackay is a poor leader, and brought about one of the most boring convention speeches in the history of politics. Harper can empower a crowd with his speeches.

My prediction

LIB-150+

CA-65+

BQ-20+

NDP-5+

PC-0 [hopefully]

[Mr. Chater]

I think hope that the PC's are done politically. I thought that they would make an effort to join in a united right wing party. However they, seem to be headed down the path of destruction. I am hoping that the next election will bring about something new.

I think that the Alliance will be able to win, or gain some more seats based on the following.

-Paul Martin cannot react to criticism, he has been hiding out politically, the Alliance could capitalize on this, and we may see a moment like in the 84 election were Mulroney was able to become PM.

- Tories seem to be to close to the Liberals, they have always indicated their preference for Jean Chretien, Paul Martin, and Svend Robinson [scumbags] over more honorable men like Preston Manning, Stockwell Day, and Stephen Harper.

-Mackay is a poor leader, and brought about one of the most boring convention speeches in the history of politics. Harper can empower a crowd with his speeches.

My prediction

LIB-150+

CA-65+

BQ-20+

NDP-5+

PC-0 [hopefully]

Well i know PC lost a lot. And this will probably happen, though i don't know if Canada wants to be that right. Who knows, all i think is that there will be hope for the right once and only when they merge, no matter how long it takes and what they go through everyone knows that it is the only way to prevail.