We pay while Indians live in luxury

[AngusThermopyle]

Except your parents wouldn't get into one country with their Expo 67 card. The Haudenosaunee use theirs to go from country to country. As well the Haudenosaunee are currently negotiating a new security card and passport for free travel across the border. Homeland Security in the US has accepted the card and passport in principle and they are refining the details as we speak.

Cite please.

Waiting patiently.

[M.Dancer]

Cite please.

Waiting patiently.

Anyone want to get into a cyber pool?

pick the number of days from 0 on......house takes infinity

[AngusThermopyle]

house takes infinity

Can I take infinity +1 then?

If not can I have infinity -1?

[AngusThermopyle]

Still waiting patiently.

[jbg]

Still waiting patiently.

Patience is a virtue. Reminds me of Samuel Becket's "Waiting for Godot".

[g_bambino]

Except your parents wouldn't get into one country with their Expo 67 card. The Haudenosaunee use theirs to go from country to country. As well the Haudenosaunee are currently negotiating a new security card and passport for free travel across the border. Homeland Security in the US has accepted the card and passport in principle and they are refining the details as we speak.

Sure they do.

A passport only has validity if it is issued by a state; hence, they run in the name of the head of state, or some such thing. The Haudenosaunee are not a sovereign state, don't have a head of state, and thus can't issue valid passports. The Haudenosaunee passport is as much a novelty collectors' item as the Expo 67 passport that my brothers and sister collected pretty stamps in from various countries' pavillions back in that centennial summer.

Edited July 14, 2008 by g_bambino

[AngusThermopyle]

Still waiting waiting waiting...patiently.

[charter.rights]

Sure they do.

A passport only has validity if it is issued by a state; hence, they run in the name of the head of state, or some such thing. The Haudenosaunee are not a sovereign state, don't have a head of state, and thus can't issue valid passports. The Haudenosaunee passport is as much a novelty collectors' item as the Expo 67 passport that my brothers and sister collected pretty stamps in from various countries' pavillions back in that centennial summer.

Wrong.

The Haudenosaunee are sovereign and have never relinguished their sovereignty. Their "head of state" is Atarotoh, the Firekeeper or "Council Chair" for the Confederacy. They have a democratic government system older than any other democracy in the world, and continue to negotiate and make agreements with nations all over the world. In fact they ahve been negotiating with the US to allow the use of the Haudenosaunee passport and /or Haudenosaunee security card as identifiaction to cross the border. Maybe you should do a bit more homework before to try to make statements of things you haven't a clue about.

As to Gomer Pyle, you can either keep waiting, or do the research yourself. It is all there and has been presented on this forum before on others. Maybe you should read and listen more and you might learn something valuable.

Edited July 14, 2008 by charter.rights

[Wild Bill]

Wrong.

The Haudenosaunee are sovereign and have never relinguished their sovereignty. Their "head of state" is Atarotoh, the Firekeeper or "Council Chair" for the Confederacy. They have a democratic government system older than any other democracy in the world, and continue to negotiate and make agreements with nations all over the world. In fact they ahve been negotiating with the US to allow the use of the Haudenosaunee passport and /or Haudenosaunee security card as identifiaction to cross the border. Maybe you should do a bit more homework before to try to make statements of things you haven't a clue about.

As to Gomer Pyle, you can either keep waiting, or do the research yourself. It is all there and has been presented on this forum before on others. Maybe you should read and listen more and you might learn something valuable.

You know, if you truly want to spead your message have you ever considered that your sarcasm might be getting in the way?

It's human nature to avoid the unpleasant. Your responses tend to be so derogatory and frankly snide and patronizing that they truly make debating with you an unpleasant experience.

People tend to avoid unpleasantness, and also confuse the unpleasantness of the message with the messenger himself.

It's a free country (well, that's another thread!) and it's up to you. I just thought I'd pass on my comment. Frankly, I haven't been sure if you want to educate others to your point of view or just vent your spleen.

[AngusThermopyle]

As to Gomer Pyle, you can either keep waiting, or do the research yourself. It is all there and has been presented on this forum before on others. Maybe you should read and listen more and you might learn something valuable.

So, just as I thought, no proof, no links, no cites. Just more of the usual lies and made up crap.

Please keep posting, every time you do you simply reinforce what I've been saying, you have nothing but lies to present.

Go ahead, refute me, post some legitimate links and cites. Why should I have to do what you would be doing if what you say is true?

[g_bambino]

Wrong.

The Haudenosaunee are sovereign and have never relinguished their sovereignty. Their "head of state" is Atarotoh, the Firekeeper or "Council Chair" for the Confederacy. They have a democratic government system older than any other democracy in the world, and continue to negotiate and make agreements with nations all over the world. In fact they ahve been negotiating with the US to allow the use of the Haudenosaunee passport and /or Haudenosaunee security card as identifiaction to cross the border. Maybe you should do a bit more homework before to try to make statements of things you haven't a clue about.

As to Gomer Pyle, you can either keep waiting, or do the research yourself. It is all there and has been presented on this forum before on others. Maybe you should read and listen more and you might learn something valuable.

They aren't sovereign, sorry. I've done my homework, and it affirms that the Haudenosaunee do not have an independent state, as though there was some extra country on the North American continent. There isn't even a unique Haudenosaunee territory to speak of (the Iroquois tribes being distributed around Quebec, Ontario, Wisconsin, and New York), and the reserves in Canada upon which Iroquois peoples live all fall under the sovereignty of the Crown, per the Royal Proclamation of 1763. Some of those lands have only been inhabited by Haudenosaunee people since they were granted to them by the King, following the American revolutionary war.

Nice play time passports, though. You could use them to travel to imagination land, which is where you'd probably find the evidence you've been asked to supply, and still haven't.

[charter.rights]

They aren't sovereign, sorry. I've done my homework, and it affirms that the Haudenosaunee do not have an independent state, as though there was some extra country on the North American continent. There isn't even a unique Haudenosaunee territory to speak of (the Iroquois tribes being distributed around Quebec, Ontario, Wisconsin, and New York), and the reserves in Canada upon which Iroquois peoples live all fall under the sovereignty of the Crown, per the Royal Proclamation of 1763. Some of those lands have only been inhabited by Haudenosaunee people since they were granted to them by the King, following the American revolutionary war.

Nice play time passports, though. You could use them to travel to imagination land, which is where you'd probably find the evidence you've been asked to supply, and still haven't.

Apparently you haven't done your homework.....

Underlying title in all of Ontario lies with the Six Nations. The Confederacy is now negotiating with Canada over the land claims in the Haldimand. And maybe you missed the part about sovereignty being over the people, not necessarily the land. In the same regard, Canada is a nation of people and our underlying title is invested in the Crown. The Crowns title in invested in Six Nations -at least where it concerns Southern Ontario.

The Haudenosaunee passport has been used by Confederacy citizens in about 30 countries around the world. If you search the interent...or even this forum you will come across the list of those countries.

[AngusThermopyle]

The Haudenosaunee passport has been used by Confederacy citizens in about 30 countries around the world. If you search the interent...or even this forum you will come across the list of those countries.

NO!

You're making the claim, you back it up.

You won't though because you can't, it's bull sh#t. Thats why you tell people to look it up themselves, because you can't, because its fantasy. Prove me wrong, go on. You say its been posted before, well show it, with proof, you won't though because you can't. Just quit the bull, are you really thinking that people here are so stupid they'll just buy into your crap?

Either back it up or just plain shut up, simple really.

[charter.rights]

NO!

You're making the claim, you back it up.

You won't though because you can't, it's bull sh#t. Thats why you tell people to look it up themselves, because you can't, because its fantasy. Prove me wrong, go on. You say its been posted before, well show it, with proof, you won't though because you can't. Just quit the bull, are you really thinking that people here are so stupid they'll just buy into your crap?

Either back it up or just plain shut up, simple really.

You think it is bullshit because that is where your live and thrive. I suggest that in your copious time YOU look it up. You might be surprised.

I have bigger fish to fry than to entertain some lazy and impotent thinkers.

[AngusThermopyle]

You think it is bullshit because that is where your live and thrive. I suggest that in your copious time YOU look it up. You might be surprised.

I have bigger fish to fry than to entertain some lazy and impotent thinkers.

So, yet another de facto admission of lies. When will you realize that no one is falling for your lies? Just give it up, you have nothing and have never had anything, you aren't worth wasting the time on, all you do is lie and then try to gloss it over in a very transparent childish way.

Prove me wrong, go on, do it.

[M.Dancer]

So, just as I thought, no proof, no links, no cites. Just more of the usual lies and made up crap.

Please keep posting, every time you do you simply reinforce what I've been saying, you have nothing but lies to present.

Go ahead, refute me, post some legitimate links and cites. Why should I have to do what you would be doing if what you say is true?

House wins the pool....

[charter.rights]

House wins the pool....

Ah...the Troll rears its ugly head.

[charter.rights]

.....in a very transparent childish way.

Prove me wrong, go on, do it.

Hmmm... I can imagine that you are sticking your tongue out and going "nah nah nah nah" .....in a very transparent childish way.

[AngusThermopyle]

You can imagine whatever you want, and you do as shown by what you post.

Just grow some balls and admit that you're full of it, everyone knows you are anyway, so just admit it.

I'm done with you for now, however feel free to continue humiliating yourself. If I muster up enough interest I may deign to show everyone how irrelevant you are once more.

Hopefully you're smart enough to recognize the fact that you're busted though. Somehow, based on your past posting habits I doubt it highly.

[g_bambino]

Apparently you haven't done your homework.....

Underlying title in all of Ontario lies with the Six Nations. The Confederacy is now negotiating with Canada over the land claims in the Haldimand. And maybe you missed the part about sovereignty being over the people, not necessarily the land. In the same regard, Canada is a nation of people and our underlying title is invested in the Crown. The Crowns title in invested in Six Nations -at least where it concerns Southern Ontario.

The Haudenosaunee passport has been used by Confederacy citizens in about 30 countries around the world. If you search the interent...or even this forum you will come across the list of those countries.

Apparently you're selective when doing your homework. Allow me to highlight what you didn't want to acknowledge:

And whereas it is just and reasonable, and essential to our Interest, and the Security of our Colonies, that the several Nations or Tribes of Indians with whom We are connected, and who live under our Protection, should not be molested or disturbed in the Possession of such Parts of Our Dominions and Territories as, not having been ceded to or purchased by Us, are reserved to them. (Emphasis mine)

Royal Proclamation 1763

King George reserved the western lands to the "several nations or tribes of Indians" that were under his "protection" as their exclusive "hunting grounds." As sovereign of this territory, however, the king claimed ultimate "Dominion" over the entire region.

The Canadian Encyclopedia: Royal Proclamation of 1763

The lands within Canada that are reserved for the Iroquois are under the sovereignty of the Crown. Regardless of the government structures the Haudenosaunee have established, they are not themselves independent, as they sit within the Queen's sovereignty. Hence, it is only in her name that land titles can be transferred between FNs and non-FNs in Canada. The reserves in the US are, likewise, under US jurisdiction; though I don't know how the sovereignty issue works down there. That the Canada/US border runs through Haudenosaunee reserves only affirms that the reserves exist within a larger entity, and are not stand-alone countries. This is further supported by the necessity of appeals to the US government by the Haudenosaunee in order to have their "passports" recognised as valid documentation for crossing that same Canada/US border, within the reserves; if the Haudenosaunee lived in a sovereign state, they wouldn't need another government to give them permission to move about in their own land.

Regardless of what other contries want to accept as valid documentation for entry into their jurisdictions, the Haudenosaunee "passport" isn't recognised as proper identification in Canada (a search of either the Department of Foreign Affairs or the Department of Indian and Northern Affairs websites reveals zero information on Haudenosaunee passports), meaning that anyone who managed to leave on a Haudenosaunee passport wouldn't get back into Canada without a proper Canadian passport. The Haudenosaunee passport is just a quirky play thing.

[jbg]

NO!

You're making the claim, you back it up.

*******************

Either back it up or just plain shut up, simple really.

In Canada, a proof is a proof is a proof is a proof is a proof.

[charter.rights]

Apparently you're selective when doing your homework. Allow me to highlight what you didn't want to acknowledge:

Royal Proclamation 1763

The Canadian Encyclopedia: Royal Proclamation of 1763

The lands within Canada that are reserved for the Iroquois are under the sovereignty of the Crown. Regardless of the government structures the Haudenosaunee have established, they are not themselves independent, as they sit within the Queen's sovereignty. Hence, it is only in her name that land titles can be transferred between FNs and non-FNs in Canada. The reserves in the US are, likewise, under US jurisdiction; though I don't know how the sovereignty issue works down there. That the Canada/US border runs through Haudenosaunee reserves only affirms that the reserves exist within a larger entity, and are not stand-alone countries. This is further supported by the necessity of appeals to the US government by the Haudenosaunee in order to have their "passports" recognised as valid documentation for crossing that same Canada/US border, within the reserves; if the Haudenosaunee lived in a sovereign state, they wouldn't need another government to give them permission to move about in their own land.

Regardless of what other contries want to accept as valid documentation for entry into their jurisdictions, the Haudenosaunee "passport" isn't recognised as proper identification in Canada (a search of either the Department of Foreign Affairs or the Department of Indian and Northern Affairs websites reveals zero information on Haudenosaunee passports), meaning that anyone who managed to leave on a Haudenosaunee passport wouldn't get back into Canada without a proper Canadian passport. The Haudenosaunee passport is just a quirky play thing.

That's a good try. Unfortunately, you can't take a few words and expect to draw broad conclusions from them. Rather one must examine the trends and treaties, proclamations and acts that took place over a couple of centuries.

The Royal Proclamation 1763 was just one attempt to limit and prohibit settlers from encroaching onto Six Nations territory into what has now become Ontario. Since settlement moved westward from New England the Iroquois have made their grievances known to the British, who not only saw the Haudenoasunee as allies, but as necessary friends in order to gain access to trade, exploration and resource extraction from the Americas. The actual proclamation was preceded by the Mitchell Map of 1757 which defined what area belong to the Iroquois and other nations and prior to that the Nanfan Treaty 1701 (among other correspondence and smaller treaties) defined that Iroquois held title in all Ontario lands and that would be enforced (and "protected") by the British. At no time did the Haudenosaunee ever relinquish their sovereignty to the British, or cede any lands under their jurisdiction. Instead there was a continuing "polishing of the chain" which refers to the Covenant Chain -A Treaty of Peace and Friendship which the British held as tantamount to keeping their business partnership intact with the Iroquois. At the insistence of the Iroquois the King offered the Proclamation of 1763 as a direction to British subjects that certain lands belonged to Six Nations, and encroachments and settlements were out of the question. Squatters were to be removed and lands would only be ceded (when and if the Haudenosaunee wanted to sell) only to the Crown and only after a public community meeting was held by the Haudenosaunee to confirm that it was everyone's desire to surrender certain parcels.

This directive and the intention of the Crown was made clear when the Quebec Act 1774 was passed which demanded "That all the Territories, Islands. and Countries in North America belonging to the Crown of Great Britain..." (in 1774 this was limited to a few counties along the north shore of Ontario and the St Lawrence River) and a number of settlements, counties etc in New York, Ohio and Michigan that were ceded under the Nanfan Treaty 1701. This was further confirmed when the King declared the Haldimand Proclamation 1784 which set aside a tract of land exclusively for the Haudeonsaunee, in exchange for their participation in defending the British during the American Revolution and providing some military guarantees against imminent invasion by the US into the counties and townships in southern Ontario. Then not long after, the Simcoe Deed (referred to by the Haudenosaunee as the Simcoe Treaty) was issued in order to define the exact boundaries set out in the Haldimand Proclamation and the prior settlement of Tyendinaga in between the eastern townships and to provide the procedure for dealing with grievances where unauthorized settlement occurred and in order to prevent a number of frauds that had been taking place, to define how any exchange of land was to occur. It should be noted that at no time were the Haudenosaunee as sovereign peoples required to comply with laws and proclamations made by the British, but were rather the benefactors of such acts. Even as late as the War of 1812, the British relied upon the favor of the Haudenosaunee in strategic locations along the border with the US to raise alarm and defend foreign incursions into the Crowns settlement areas. There is no point in history where the Haudenosaunee either treatied with the British to give up the territory identified in Mitchell's Map of 1757 or any time where they capitulated to the authority of the Crown. In fact, the polishing of the Covenant Chain continued to be a regular occurrence while the British long after the Simcoe Treaty as a confirmation of each the Confederacy's and British sovereign alliance in defending the settlements and partnership in keeping business going.

While anyone can microscopically analyze words in documents, it is the entire history that defeats the assertion that the Haudenosaunee became "subjects". If it were the case (that the Haudenosaunee at one time became subjects) with the long history between the Confederacy and the Crown, there would have been a formal treaty or agreement recorded, since the Haudenosaunee were not partial to informal agreements with the British, having often been deceived by them. There is no such treaty in existence on the historical record.

Even as we delve in to purported surrenders surrounding the Haldimand, Tyendinaga and other territories we have many examples of fraudulent dealings whereby documents were falsely created, valid ones altered and others completely ignored. Joseph Brant and John Deseronto had no interest in selling land but were interested in leasing under longterm agreements in order to have settler farmers clear their lands and farm them until they could be re-assumed by the Haudenosaunee people. In a number of cases, like the Plank Road or the Turton-Penn case (at Tyendinaga) the intention was to allow the British to construct a road and then hold leases on the lands adjacent in order to reap an income from developments. Things like this created the Six Nations trust that now is estimated to amount in the $trillions.

I get a laugh at those who pursue the case of the 1844 General Surrender at Six Nations since there are approximately 44 signatories all represented by an "x" - none of which are fully condoled chiefs - when the majority of Six Nations Royaner could read and write English fluently including writing and signing their names, having kept minutes and records of their councils since they arrived back on the Haldimand in 1884. Yet in presenting our case at negotiations at Six Nations our Canadian negotiators have tried to represent this as a legitimate surrender, even though the original agreement in 1842 was to agree to a lease of the lands in question AND the correspondence between the Crown and the Haudenosaunee confirms prior to 1842 and on-going to and after 1844 that this was the only acceptable option. Here is a case of a seemingly fraudulent surrender.

So while your short venture into the misinterpretation of one fragment of a documented history is admirable, you need to go further and understand the whole timeline. The British were immaculate record keepers, as were the Haudenosaunee during these times. If there was a surrender of land or sovereignty it would have been accounted on paper and confirmed by both parties. Your presentation that one small phrase that refers to "subjects" in the RC1763 has no such confirmation no does it make your case. In fact if what it really does is prove that the relationship as allies is much more intricate than you can imagine and you will have to spend more than a few minutes on the internet to discover how little you really know.

[g_bambino]

That's a good try. Unfortunately, you can't take a few words and expect to draw broad conclusions from them. Rather one must examine the trends and treaties, proclamations and acts that took place over a couple of centuries.

The Royal Proclamation 1763 was just one attempt to limit and prohibit settlers from encroaching onto Six Nations territory into what has now become Ontario. Since settlement moved westward from New England the Iroquois have made their grievances known to the British, who not only saw the Haudenoasunee as allies, but as necessary friends in order to gain access to trade, exploration and resource extraction from the Americas. The actual proclamation was preceded by the Mitchell Map of 1757 which defined what area belong to the Iroquois and other nations and prior to that the Nanfan Treaty 1701 (among other correspondence and smaller treaties) defined that Iroquois held title in all Ontario lands and that would be enforced (and "protected") by the British. At no time did the Haudenosaunee ever relinquish their sovereignty to the British, or cede any lands under their jurisdiction. Instead there was a continuing "polishing of the chain" which refers to the Covenant Chain -A Treaty of Peace and Friendship which the British held as tantamount to keeping their business partnership intact with the Iroquois. At the insistence of the Iroquois the King offered the Proclamation of 1763 as a direction to British subjects that certain lands belonged to Six Nations, and encroachments and settlements were out of the question. Squatters were to be removed and lands would only be ceded (when and if the Haudenosaunee wanted to sell) only to the Crown and only after a public community meeting was held by the Haudenosaunee to confirm that it was everyone's desire to surrender certain parcels.

This directive and the intention of the Crown was made clear when the Quebec Act 1774 was passed which demanded "That all the Territories, Islands. and Countries in North America belonging to the Crown of Great Britain..." (in 1774 this was limited to a few counties along the north shore of Ontario and the St Lawrence River) and a number of settlements, counties etc in New York, Ohio and Michigan that were ceded under the Nanfan Treaty 1701. This was further confirmed when the King declared the Haldimand Proclamation 1784 which set aside a tract of land exclusively for the Haudeonsaunee, in exchange for their participation in defending the British during the American Revolution and providing some military guarantees against imminent invasion by the US into the counties and townships in southern Ontario. Then not long after, the Simcoe Deed (referred to by the Haudenosaunee as the Simcoe Treaty) was issued in order to define the exact boundaries set out in the Haldimand Proclamation and the prior settlement of Tyendinaga in between the eastern townships and to provide the procedure for dealing with grievances where unauthorized settlement occurred and in order to prevent a number of frauds that had been taking place, to define how any exchange of land was to occur. It should be noted that at no time were the Haudenosaunee as sovereign peoples required to comply with laws and proclamations made by the British, but were rather the benefactors of such acts. Even as late as the War of 1812, the British relied upon the favor of the Haudenosaunee in strategic locations along the border with the US to raise alarm and defend foreign incursions into the Crowns settlement areas. There is no point in history where the Haudenosaunee either treatied with the British to give up the territory identified in Mitchell's Map of 1757 or any time where they capitulated to the authority of the Crown. In fact, the polishing of the Covenant Chain continued to be a regular occurrence while the British long after the Simcoe Treaty as a confirmation of each the Confederacy's and British sovereign alliance in defending the settlements and partnership in keeping business going.

While anyone can microscopically analyze words in documents, it is the entire history that defeats the assertion that the Haudenosaunee became "subjects". If it were the case (that the Haudenosaunee at one time became subjects) with the long history between the Confederacy and the Crown, there would have been a formal treaty or agreement recorded, since the Haudenosaunee were not partial to informal agreements with the British, having often been deceived by them. There is no such treaty in existence on the historical record.

Even as we delve in to purported surrenders surrounding the Haldimand, Tyendinaga and other territories we have many examples of fraudulent dealings whereby documents were falsely created, valid ones altered and others completely ignored. Joseph Brant and John Deseronto had no interest in selling land but were interested in leasing under longterm agreements in order to have settler farmers clear their lands and farm them until they could be re-assumed by the Haudenosaunee people. In a number of cases, like the Plank Road or the Turton-Penn case (at Tyendinaga) the intention was to allow the British to construct a road and then hold leases on the lands adjacent in order to reap an income from developments. Things like this created the Six Nations trust that now is estimated to amount in the $trillions.

I get a laugh at those who pursue the case of the 1844 General Surrender at Six Nations since there are approximately 44 signatories all represented by an "x" - none of which are fully condoled chiefs - when the majority of Six Nations Royaner could read and write English fluently including writing and signing their names, having kept minutes and records of their councils since they arrived back on the Haldimand in 1884. Yet in presenting our case at negotiations at Six Nations our Canadian negotiators have tried to represent this as a legitimate surrender, even though the original agreement in 1842 was to agree to a lease of the lands in question AND the correspondence between the Crown and the Haudenosaunee confirms prior to 1842 and on-going to and after 1844 that this was the only acceptable option. Here is a case of a seemingly fraudulent surrender.

So while your short venture into the misinterpretation of one fragment of a documented history is admirable, you need to go further and understand the whole timeline. The British were immaculate record keepers, as were the Haudenosaunee during these times. If there was a surrender of land or sovereignty it would have been accounted on paper and confirmed by both parties. Your presentation that one small phrase that refers to "subjects" in the RC1763 has no such confirmation no does it make your case. In fact if what it really does is prove that the relationship as allies is much more intricate than you can imagine and you will have to spend more than a few minutes on the internet to discover how little you really know.

Despite the lengthy ramble and the self-inflated pomposity, you've entirely missed the point. Regardless of what divisions maps and treaties show, within the jurisdiction of the Canadian monarch, all that territory, whether reserve or not, and the people living on it, whether FNs or not, are under the sovereignty of the Crown. Whatever the Haudenosaunee think they did or didn't do back at the end of the 18th century, they lost full sovereignty. There is no independent Republic of Haudenosaunee, or some such entity, to speak of.

Edited July 16, 2008 by g_bambino

[charter.rights]

Despite the lengthy ramble and the self-inflated pomposity, you've entirely missed the point. Regardless of what divisions maps and treaties show, within the jurisdiction of the Canadian monarch, all that territory, whether reserve or not, and the people living on it, whether FNs or not, are under the sovereignty of the Crown. Whatever the Haudenosaunee think they did or didn't do back at the end of the 18th century, they lost full sovereignty. There is no independent Republic of Haudenosaunee, or some such entity, to speak of.

Here's a simple notion - prove it. Prove that the British ever legally or militarily took possession of any part of what is now Canada. I mean it IS ONLY YOUR opinion but you should have some basis for proving it, no?

That Haudenosaunee sovereignty is intact. Perhaps you should be reminded just who is at the table negotiating with us in Brantford......As well those lands claims put forth by the Haudenosaunee are based on nation to nation negotiations. That is why they are not under the Specific Claims process, the government reauires to settle most lands claims. Same thing for BC natives. They haven't lost their sovereignty either.

[g_bambino]

Here's a simple notion - prove it. Prove that the British ever legally or militarily took possession of any part of what is now Canada. I mean it IS ONLY YOUR opinion but you should have some basis for proving it, no?

That Haudenosaunee sovereignty is intact. Perhaps you should be reminded just who is at the table negotiating with us in Brantford......As well those lands claims put forth by the Haudenosaunee are based on nation to nation negotiations. That is why they are not under the Specific Claims process, the government reauires to settle most lands claims. Same thing for BC natives. They haven't lost their sovereignty either.

I just did prove it. It's right there in the Canadian constitution. It's there in the petitions to the US government by the Haudenosaunee.

The onus is now on you to prove that there is a 28th country in North America.