We pay while Indians live in luxury

[Catchme]

Hey who is doing what, I need some money going to give me some? Of course not, bit unreasonable to think you would, eh?

I pay my taxes. If you need money the welfare system is there for you.

What about casinos whitey's own, eh? Feel the same way about government run Casinos?

Please enlighten me to all these Govt. and "whitey" owned casinos, and don't say Vegas, Reno or Atlantic City. I'll make sure to tell everyone I know to only go to them.

50% of FN live off reserve paying the same taxes you and I do.

All of BC's 20+ casinos are owned by companies and none are, as of yet FN. I know of no FN's casinos in Sask or Alberta either.

Postit covered the equality point quite nicely.

[blueblood]

Hey who is doing what, I need some money going to give me some? Of course not, bit unreasonable to think you would, eh?

I pay my taxes. If you need money the welfare system is there for you.

What about casinos whitey's own, eh? Feel the same way about government run Casinos?

Please enlighten me to all these Govt. and "whitey" owned casinos, and don't say Vegas, Reno or Atlantic City. I'll make sure to tell everyone I know to only go to them.

50% of FN live off reserve paying the same taxes you and I do.

All of BC's 20+ casinos are owned by companies and none are, as of yet FN. I know of no FN's casinos in Sask or Alberta either.

Postit covered the equality point quite nicely.

Status gets the tax breaks no matter what, your 50% might not be status, and there are two FN owned casinos that I know of that are 400 k of each other, one in Yorkton SK, and one in The Pas MB.

[Who's Doing What?]

Aboriginal people are not "given" any rights over and above Canadians. The Charter of Rights and Freedoms "recognize" the pre-existing rights of aboriginal peoples. That means they cannot restrict native people by law or otherwise where a practice or treaty right existed before Canada became a crown corporation. There is a huge difference.

What a racist concept. "pre-existing rights" that others cannot have?

Time to come out of the dark ages.

[Who's Doing What?]

50% of FN live off reserve paying the same taxes you and I do.

All of BC's 20+ casinos are owned by companies and none are, as of yet FN. I know of no FN's casinos in Sask or Alberta either.

Postit covered the equality point quite nicely.

Everyone I have ever met with a status card who lived off reserved paid no taxes.

So Ontario is the lucky ones to get our pockets picked by the FN's casinos. How nice.

There is no equality when it comes to FN's and the ROC. Open your eyes.

[guyser]

Aboriginal people are not "given" any rights over and above Canadians. The Charter of Rights and Freedoms "recognize" the pre-existing rights of aboriginal peoples. That means they cannot restrict native people by law or otherwise where a practice or treaty right existed before Canada became a crown corporation. There is a huge difference.

What a racist concept. "pre-existing rights" that others cannot have?

Time to come out of the dark ages.

Ahem.....cough ....cough......."In 1850, the Province of Canada enacted a law stating that no taxes would be levied or assessed against an Indian person or anyone married to an Indian person."

It may not be right , but it is true.

[Hydraboss]

It is not right, but it is truly racist.

[stignasty]

Status Indians and Taxes

February 2002

In general, Aboriginal people in Canada are required to pay taxes on the same basis as other people in Canada, except where the limited exemption under Section 87 of the Indian Act applies. Section 87 says that the "personal property of an Indian or a band situated on a reserve" is tax exempt. Métis and Inuit are not eligible for this exemption.

The exemption in Section 87 of the Indian Act has existed since before Confederation. It reflects the unique constitutional and historic place of Aboriginal people in Canada. The courts have held that the exemption is intended to preserve the entitlements of Indian people to their reserve lands, and to ensure that the use of their property on their reserve lands is not eroded by taxation.

The Indian Act prevents non-Aboriginal governments from taxing the property of Status Indians on a reserve. However, section 83 of the Indian Act gives First Nations the power to impose property taxes on interests in land in the reserve. These property tax by-laws must be reviewed by the Indian Taxation Advisory Board and approved by the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development.

Individual tax circumstances may vary as some self-government and land claims (both settled claims and those currently under negotiation) may also provide First Nations with expanded tax powers, or may affect their tax treatment. Some First Nations have negotiated tax powers with the Department of Finance Canada and are imposing sales taxes on selected products.

The Minister of Finance is responsible for federal tax policy and the Minister of National Revenue administers the tax laws through the Canada Customs and Revenue Agency. The Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development defines the words "Indian," "reserve" and "band" for all governments to use when addressing taxation issues. (See Terminology.)

Employment income earned by a Status Indian working on a reserve will be considered tax exempt. The courts have stated that connecting factors, such as the location of the duties and residence of the employee and employer, must be considered to determine whether the income will be considered tax exempt. For example, if 90% or more of the employment duties of a Status Indian are performed on a reserve, the income from that employment will usually be exempt from tax.

The Goods and Services Tax or Harmonized Sales Tax (GST/HST) generally does not apply to purchases by Status Indians if the purchase is made on a reserve or is delivered to a reserve by the vendor or the vendor's agent.

http://www.ainc-inac.gc.ca/pr/info/info113_e.html

[Hydraboss]

The Goods and Services Tax or Harmonized Sales Tax (GST/HST) generally does not apply to purchases by Status Indians if the purchase is made on a reserve or is delivered to a reserve by the vendor or the vendor's agent.

I know, I know. Years ago, when I was in the car business, we used to have to write "Delivered at the Enoch Reserve" on every bill of sale to an Indian. It was the only way they didn't have to pay tax. How many did the dealership deliver to the reserve...let's see...5+6, carry the one...zero.

The "delivered at reserve" is a sham. I doubt there has ever been a dollars worth of product actually delivered at reserve. It's a kinky loophole, and Indians make the most of it.

The Indians that work for me (the company) that live on reserve earn 100% of their income off reserve, but still pay zero income tax. It's the Canadian way of the world.

Don't tax Indians. They don't like it.

[skyclad]

Here's some perspective from people living right next door to the biggest land swindle in Canada, currently ongoing

http://neighbour1.proboards66.com/index.cgi?board=general

[leonardcohen]

Tried to click link, but came to log in page-since i don't feel like registering

to see 1 article could you give me the gist of it? -Thanks

[Live From China]

I have heard stories on both sides of the First-Nations-and-taxation-issue. Yes, they are only exempt from taxes when they earn money on the reserve. No, there not. And on and on it goes.

I did meet a FN oil worker last year. He made good money and he claimed he worked off reserve and yet paid no taxes. He joked about manipulating the system. Of course, he could having just been lying to see what kind of reaction he would get.

What I am wondering about is the proud dream forwarded by FN leaders that they wanted federal paternalism to end, that they wanted self-determination, that they wanted to become contributing members of Canadian society, and, yes, they wanted to pay taxes. Give us ten years, they said, or something akin to that. Well, it's been ten years and I still don't see it.

I have a feeling when full taxation does become a reality for the FN's, many of them will be hauled kicking and screaming into the 21st Century.

[stignasty]

I have a feeling when full taxation does become a reality for the FN's, many of them will be hauled kicking and screaming into the 21st Century.

I think it will take more than that to make them give up their travois and tipis.

Really though, how will making people on the reserve pay taxes do that? How are they not already in the 21st Century?

[Live From China]

It's just an expression. I did not use it in the literal sense. It is just time for them to pay taxes no matter where they live.

[ScottSA]

I have a feeling when full taxation does become a reality for the FN's, many of them will be hauled kicking and screaming into the 21st Century.

I think it will take more than that to make them give up their travois and tipis.

Really though, how will making people on the reserve pay taxes do that? How are they not already in the 21st Century?

Well, that's the crux of the matter, isn't it? The treaties are defended by an appeal to the alleged wishes of the noble savage (and I use that term advisedly, since it speaks to the intent and ethos of the treaty system) to return to a sylvan "traditional" harmony with nature. In any other paradigm, one would assume a desire to return to the stone age meant a return to the stone age, with its concurrent life expectancy of 16, chasing dinner, and clubbing each over the head in coupcounting fits of bloodshed, but in Canada it means making up a bunch of "traditions" like hunting with 50 calibre machine guns, fishing with dynamite and tracking with GPS and snowmobiles, then facilitating the lot with enormous sums of money and free healthcare to help folks live in the stoneage with all the benefits of not living in the stoneage. What adds idiocy to lunacy is that if anyone attacks what is clearly a racist system of apartied, or calls for the equality of all Canadians, they are called "racist".

[Canadian Blue]

Well, that's the crux of the matter, isn't it? The treaties are defended by an appeal to the alleged wishes of the noble savage (and I use that term advisedly, since it speaks to the intent and ethos of the treaty system) to return to a sylvan "traditional" harmony with nature. In any other paradigm, one would assume a desire to return to the stone age meant a return to the stone age, with its concurrent life expectancy of 16, chasing dinner, and clubbing each over the head in coupcounting fits of bloodshed, but in Canada it means making up a bunch of "traditions" like hunting with 50 calibre machine guns, fishing with dynamite and tracking with GPS and snowmobiles, then facilitating the lot with enormous sums of money and free healthcare to help folks live in the stoneage with all the benefits of not living in the stoneage. What adds idiocy to lunacy is that if anyone attacks what is clearly a racist system of apartied, or calls for the equality of all Canadians, they are called "racist".

Can the white man do no wrong in your book?

If we give all aboriginals "equal rights", the only result would be more poverty, more alcoholism, and more crime. I'll be the first to admit that the current system isn't working, however to say that we should cut them off would surely result in nothing but more problems for aboriginals and the country. These issues go back to when Columbus first hit North America, and any way you look at it aboriginals were exploited by whites; to say otherwise is simply ignorance. I would suggest finding new ways of dealing with poverty, or discussing with the leaders of First Nations to find a solution to the problems FN's currently face.

[ScottSA]

If we give all aboriginals "equal rights", the only result would be more poverty, more alcoholism, and more crime. I'll be the first to admit that the current system isn't working, however to say that we should cut them off would surely result in nothing but more problems for aboriginals and the country.

You obviously don't have much faith in Indians, do you? Do they have primitive brains that can't function at the same level as you? Are they somehow not quite the intellectual equal of you? I've always found the phenomenon of lilly white liberal racism to be kinda odd, given that lilly white liberals are the ones trotting around making sure no one says what lilly white liberals are thinking. Some of the arguments against abolishing slavery were similar: let the Blacks go and they won't be able to survive. What...5 generations or so isn't enough for the noble Indian to aclimatize to civilization? It only took my Scottish hiland savage forebearers a generation or so to stop shagging sheep, stealing cattle and raping Englishwomen, but to your mind the Indians need more time?

[Posit]

They aren't "their" treaties that the Charter is protecting. It is protecting "our"treaties with First Nations - legal agreements without which we would have no land base, resources and livelihoods drawn from their territories. The fact is we cannot unilaterally deny them them treaty obligations while benefiting from our sharing of lands and resources with them. The sooner we come to that realization the sooner we will rid ourselves of the ignorant racism that often pops its ugly head on this message board.

Guns, modern technologies, snowmobiles and GPS do not belong to mainstream Canadians, or Americans. They are the fruits of prosperity bought with the resources we have extracted from the land, set into commodities that are traded between nations and developed by multinational companies we all - Natives included - have invested in over the years. Nor are these technologies lent to First Nations in exchange for their continued commitment to their culture and traditions. Most of these technologies were derived and built by Asian cultures (among others) vastly different than our own and your suggestion would deny them too because of their differences.

First Nations people continue to be exploited by Canadians and national / multi-national corporations with the blessings of our government. Take Kasetchewan as an example. The are located in a community that became home after they were displaced by government wanting their original homelands, then built with a poorly located water intake system down stream from their sewage discharge by OUR government. In the spring their water intake is flooded by spring thaws causing their entire water system to be contaminated. The simple solution is to move them right? The government wants to move they to Timmins far away from their traditional territories where many of the residents hunt and fish for sustenance. They offered them on week a year return tickets to 100's of thousands of thriving hunting wilderness.

The residents voted for a slightly more expensive solution of moving upstream 32km to higher ground. Of course the government cares about First Nations and offers them a higher standard of living than ordinary Canadians, right?

So why would the government insist on displacing them once again when Walkerton was offer unlimited access to cash to inquire about and resolve their water quality issues? Ah but De Beers doesn't have a stake on Walkerton land for a diamond mine now does it.....No, the Government wants Kasetchewan residents off the land so de Beers can develop the mine and pay their royalties to the government.

Follow the money. The water quality problems are not fixed in First Nation communities (approximately 500 FN communities have water quality problems with Ontario have nearly 120 communities in the same boat). No, FN do not get equal or equitable treatment because 1. they are not seen by the government as Canadians citizens and 2. the government still sees FNs as a problem, and 3. there is better use for lands we didn't bargain for and contamination and encroachment is a far easier method of eradicating the "Indian problem" (Duncan Campbell Scott, former Minister of Indian Affairs) than legal proceedings, or the types of genocide used on them in the past.

If we want to continue to use the roads, built our house using limestone to make cement, or asphalt, fish and recreate in lakes and rivers, or just enjoy the house built from the timber derived from forests on treaty lands, then we had better be meeting our obligations under those contracts or the First Nations will do as they assert they will do and cut us off permanently.

No the treaties do not benefit them nearly as much as they benefit us.

[Canadian Blue]

You obviously don't have much faith in Indians, do you? Do they have primitive brains that can't function at the same level as you?

No, I simply recognize that certain social injustices must be remedied. The notion that throwing all FN's off reserves and telling them to go get jobs is going to bring about a positive for the country is ignorant. In fact the same can be said of anyone living in poverty, not only FN's.

Nice trying to play the race card, especially after seeing your obvious bigotry towards FN's.

I've always found the phenomenon of lilly white liberal racism to be kinda odd, given that lilly white liberals are the ones trotting around making sure no one says what lilly white liberals are thinking.

Because the liberals have often been the ones fighting against things such as slavery, poverty, and racism.

Some of the arguments against abolishing slavery were similar: let the Blacks go and they won't be able to survive.

Abolishing slavery didn't really do much, blacks still lived in poverty, and their rights were taken away from them. Even if you look at the United States today, many African Americans still live in conditions of poverty more so than your typical white person. However its not a surprise considering cuts in welfare and social services in order to bring about tax cuts.

I think the arguments against abolishing slavery were more due to economic reasons. If the slaves were free, that would mean white people would actually have to work.

What...5 generations or so isn't enough for the noble Indian to aclimatize to civilization?

If you refuse to look at the general poverty, discrimination, and social ills which plagued FN's for the past 5 decades.

It only took my Scottish hiland savage forebearers a generation or so to stop shagging sheep, stealing cattle and raping Englishwomen, but to your mind the Indians need more time?

No, the white people went on to rape people of different races who were considered inferior.

[ScottSA]

The notion that throwing all FN's off reserves and telling them to go get jobs is going to bring about a positive for the country is ignorant. In fact the same can be said of anyone living in poverty, not only FN's.

Right. But what about a one time settlement of $250,000 for each living Indian, followed by the abolition of the reserve system? Would that assuage your whiteyguilt?

Oh, and btw, calling someone "first nations" is no different from calling them "Indians". In fact most Indians prefer not to hide behind euphemisms.

[Canadian Blue]

Right. But what about a one time settlement of $250,000 for each living Indian, followed by the abolition of the reserve system? Would that assuage your whiteyguilt?

Thats called throwing money at a problem and hoping it will go away. It doesn't work, and a government and people should instead work together to find a better solution.

Whiteyguilt, classic.

Oh, and btw, calling someone "first nations" is no different from calling them "Indians". In fact most Indians prefer not to hide behind euphemisms.

Buddy, your the most bigoted person on here. Weren't you saying something about how all FN's want to live in the stone age. Which simply tells us all how little you actually know about Native history and culture.

[ScottSA]

Right. But what about a one time settlement of $250,000 for each living Indian, followed by the abolition of the reserve system? Would that assuage your whiteyguilt?

Thats called throwing money at a problem and hoping it will go away. It doesn't work, and a government and people should instead work together to find a better solution.

Whiteyguilt, classic.

Oh, and btw, calling someone "first nations" is no different from calling them "Indians". In fact most Indians prefer not to hide behind euphemisms.

Buddy, your the most bigoted person on here. Weren't you saying something about how all FN's want to live in the stone age. Which simply tells us all how little you actually know about Native history and culture.

Well, it's a one time throw of money at the problem to stop the ongoing flow of money at the problem, so I think it might be worth one last throw. Don't be dense.

As for my bigotry, here's the deal: I don't hide behind euphemisms. It's a fact, whether you like it or not, that pre-Columbian north American society was at a stone age level. To argue otherwise is to display your ignorance of what 'stoneage' means. Now if you know something no one else knows about "Native history and culture" that corrects this widely accepted knowledge, please share it with me so that I don't make the mistake again.

"Native history and culture" wasn't, as latterday legend would have it, an unending frolic through sylvan utopia whilst burned sweetgrass and communing with nature; it was a nasty brutish and short subsistence punctuated by sprees of intertribal slaughter, which goes a long way toward explaining why Indians want nothing to do with it today. It's great politics for Indian lobbyists to play on ignorant Whitey's guilt by claiming the inherent need to return to a harmonious state of Noble Savagery which never existed, and it's been damned successful judging from the number of fools who buy into it through some need to feel guilty about being white, but it's utter nonsense. It's just good politics. It's also a continuation of 19th century paternalism...which, not coincidentally, oozes out of every pore of your apologia for "Native history and culture". Indians don't need your help. They are every bit as capable as you of making a success or failure of their lives out in the wide world. Their lobbyists and activists, like Black activists in the states, do nothing but act as crabs in a barrel by perpetuating a ridiculous self-enforced apartied that frowns upon any notion of integrating with hegemonic society. Shame on you for helping perpetuate it.

[Posit]

Scott. Perhaps you missed the history lesson. Archaeology has proven that North American natives beat Europe in the smelting and working of metals by nearly 3000 years.

As well our system of democracy as was the US Constitution was derived from the over 1000 year old Great Law of Peace practiced by the Iroquois Confederacy. They had a system of government, agriculture and a society far superior to the colonial peasants that arrived here fleeing poverty and persecution from Europe. Although it wasn't spoken of too much, many if not most of the Jesuits and colonists that came here "turned Indian" and adopted the lifestyle and culture of many First Nations. That's how the Metis were born.

So if you want to accuse someone of being stone age, I would suggest that you are not far derived from it.

[Canadian Blue]

A really good book about the history of civilization is Guns, Germs, and Steel, by Jared Diamond. If you're interested in reading about the progress of history.

"Native history and culture" wasn't, as latterday legend would have it, an unending frolic through sylvan utopia whilst burned sweetgrass and communing with nature; it was a nasty brutish and short subsistence punctuated by sprees of intertribal slaughter, which goes a long way toward explaining why Indians want nothing to do with it today. It's great politics for Indian lobbyists to play on ignorant Whitey's guilt by claiming the inherent need to return to a harmonious state of Noble Savagery which never existed, and it's been damned successful judging from the number of fools who buy into it through some need to feel guilty about being white, but it's utter nonsense. It's just good politics. It's also a continuation of 19th century paternalism...which, not coincidentally, oozes out of every pore of your apologia for "Native history and culture". Indians don't need your help. They are every bit as capable as you of making a success or failure of their lives out in the wide world.

Its not really ignorant to view what happened to the Natives on this continent as cultural genocide. Many also believe that Native American culture was also more advanced than the "stone age" as you put it.

http://usinfo.state.gov/products/pubs/histryotln/index.htm

http://www.si.edu/Encyclopedia_SI/History_...ian_History.htm

As for my bigotry, here's the deal: I don't hide behind euphemisms. It's a fact, whether you like it or not, that pre-Columbian north American society was at a stone age level. To argue otherwise is to display your ignorance of what 'stoneage' means. Now if you know something no one else knows about "Native history and culture" that corrects this widely accepted knowledge, please share it with me so that I don't make the mistake again.

So far you haven't been able to back anything up, besides showing us the stereotypes you picked up in your life.

Well, it's a one time throw of money at the problem to stop the ongoing flow of money at the problem, so I think it might be worth one last throw. Don't be dense.

Thats a pretty simple minded solution to a complex problem.

[Higgly]

I've stayed out of this thread because the title is so inflammatory, but I would like to know how many of those who have posted here have actually lived on or near a reserve. These places are towns. Their chiefs are mayors. Some are good, and some are bad. But the title of this thread is pretty damned racist.

[ScottSA]

Scott. Perhaps you missed the history lesson. Archaeology has proven that North American natives beat Europe in the smelting and working of metals by nearly 3000 years.

As well our system of democracy as was the US Constitution was derived from the over 1000 year old Great Law of Peace practiced by the Iroquois Confederacy. They had a system of government, agriculture and a society far superior to the colonial peasants that arrived here fleeing poverty and persecution from Europe. Although it wasn't spoken of too much, many if not most of the Jesuits and colonists that came here "turned Indian" and adopted the lifestyle and culture of many First Nations. That's how the Metis were born.

So if you want to accuse someone of being stone age, I would suggest that you are not far derived from it.

Cool. I'm always willing to learn new things. Please direct me to the tools used by North American Indians at the time of Columbus. I'm very interested.

I do though know a little about the ridiculous revisionist thesis that the Iroquois Confederacy spawned democracy, and it's based upon the mere similarity between a tribal law and advanced democracy and hung by the tenuous notion that Franklin met with some Iroquios leaders before he began promoting the Continental Congress. Sorry, but it's nonsense.

We can rewrite history all we want, and we can pretend that things weren't the way they were. We can even pretend that everything Bwana ever did was bad, and that the moral virtue somehow accrues to non-whites by virtue of historical oppression. That's the joy of history. But when we actually start to believe nonsensical revisionism, that's a bit of a danger.

CB: I have read Diamond's book. I found, like most, that he's trying to concoct a grand theory out of a great deal of speculation. Sure there's a connection between animal labour and human advancement, but to extrapolate from that to why industrial society became what it is goes a bi8t beyond reasonable analysis. The most reasonable explanation I've ever come across as to why western civilization shot ahead of all others by several orders of magnitude is the sectarianism of Europe. While other societies had the luxury of reclining in the relative vacuums of large territorial domains, Europe was broken into small fragments in a state of chronic competitive turmoil, which forced its fragments to advance at a much faster rate and embrace innovation as a 'good' after the enlightenment, when other civilizations thought of innovation as an evil. Before you type up some retarded line item counterexamples, take the time to think things through...this is a bit more complicated than you might think.