Temagami Scourge Posted October 24, 2006 Report Share Posted October 24, 2006 Brad: You fail to realize the government can always just say no and there is nothing you could do about it. Oh no...not another Riverwind. Dude...instead of guessing about what the government "can" do, but has never actually done, why not stick to facts. All we ever here from you people are your utopian ideas of keeping Natives "in their place". Why not bother your Crown to simply live up to their end of the agreements, instead of trying to weasel your way out of getting something for nothing. Either way Im all for giving native populations a little land that they had actually done something with before the arrival of Europeans. What you say here is the crux of the problem. You want to "give" Natives stuff. You are trying to argue that -for reasons only known to yourself- that it is perfectly natural for Cauco-canadians to give Natives stuff. Personally, I'd gladly give up all treaty benefits in exchange for the land we signed away. You can even take all the buildings and roads the White Man "gave" to us....i'm sure it'll be a struggle, but I'm certain that we Natives could find investors to replace you. Of course any improvements made to the land would have to be paid for or we would just take them/demolish them for scraps. See above. Feel free. See ya later! I hear England is pleasant in the winter time. Then after the natives choose to relocate (the ones who do) the federal government can stop providing them any benefits as they refuse to be a part of Canada. Heck no...I'd move out of the city and back on the land so fast that you'd need a stop-action camera to catch my leaving. Unfortunatly, and I honestly believe this is incredibly unfortunate, but I think within a few years there would be a significant amount of poeple begging to be included back in Canada. I doubt it. I think there would be incredible anger that the international community is spending money on the natural resources the Natives hold, while the Canadian population loses out because its manufacturing base was undercut by Asia. I bet you forgot that part. I think you truly believe that Natives sit around all day waiting for government money to arrive. I'd caution you now because you are at the point where you believe that Natives think and act like you would, which isn't exactly the case. I would love to see the native population flourish and increase their average standard of living but its difficult to see that happening anytime in the near future. Oh....then why is it that non-native fishers on both coasts try so hard to stop the Native fishery? Would it have to do with competition? Why are non-Native loggers so upset with Native loggers? Could it be that they don't like the idea of competition? I do, that's why I'm rolling my eyes at your statement. Really what the natives have in their favour is public opinion. It is a black mark on our country to have a group, on average, completely unable to rescue itself from poverty despite the extra help already provided. Yeah...but you have to admit that your priests, reverends and other holy people had a hundred years of frolicking with Native children at residential school, so I think that your community more than made up for the "extra help" by creating generation after generation of Native people who only knew the effects of child rape. What a loving and caring country we have, eh? I think most Canadians desperatly want to see natives better off and support land claims in the hopes that it might help the native populations and remove this blackmark on Canada. But as you increase demands and start evicting tax paying Canadians from the homes they bought and have attitudes towards them that you put forth on this board the public opinion will fall. Then the government might just have to say no more. Forgive my honesty Brad, but two sundays ago, at a place called Caledonia, a group of Caucasians who called themselves "canadians" protested a substantially larger group of people at a place called Douglas Creek. The Native people had all kinds of people of color -black folks, Arab-Canadians, Sikh-Canadians etc. The "canadians" were a uniform white. After seeing this with my own eyes, I can't help but wonder about people like you who like to infer that they speak on behalf of the rest of Canada, when as far as I'm concerned, the "rest of Canada" stood with the Natives on that day. Realisitically Brad, you speak for a certain section of Caucao-canadians, and nothing more. sorry. Never conquered yet you lost all your land...I think Im missing something?? Being duped into a treaty and then taken over doesn't sound all that much better. Either way if the British wanted to bother going head to head in battle it would have been a complete victory. Much easier and smarter to take the land without battle as they did I guess. How can you be so sure about something that never happened Brad? You do the same thing as a bunch of people here....you guess about history and ignore current reality. Show us the wars against the Indians. I'll even help you a bit.....the Little Big Horn is in the U.S. There...go ahead.... Quote There is are no such things as stupid questions, just stupid people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Who's Doing What? Posted October 24, 2006 Report Share Posted October 24, 2006 You losers still on about this? Why don't you figure out a way to feed and clothe all the natives on the lands you DO own? Is it because militant land grabs worth billions are more suited to your "Warrior" tradition? Or is it because you don't give a flying **** for your poverty stricken people and hope that by being a part of these types of actions, you will be given a bigger slice of the pie? Why the hell is my Aunt telling me about the scarves and mittens she is knitting as part of a huge care package to help the poor natives, when you militants can afford to occupy land, and not be at work? You want to say you are self governed, then start looking after your own. This money grab, land occupation **** is a ******* joke. Quote Harper differed with his party on some key policy issues; in 1995, for example, he was one of only two Reform MPs to vote in favour of federal legislation requiring owners to register their guns. http://www.mapleleafweb.com/election/bio/harper.html "You've got to remember that west of Winnipeg the ridings the Liberals hold are dominated by people who are either recent Asian immigrants or recent migrants from eastern Canada: people who live in ghettoes and who are not integrated into western Canadian society." (Stephen Harper, Report Newsmagazine, January 22, 2001) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Temagami Scourge Posted October 24, 2006 Report Share Posted October 24, 2006 You losers still on about this?Why don't you figure out a way to feed and clothe all the natives on the lands you DO own? Is it because militant land grabs worth billions are more suited to your "Warrior" tradition? Or is it because you don't give a flying **** for your poverty stricken people and hope that by being a part of these types of actions, you will be given a bigger slice of the pie? Why the hell is my Aunt telling me about the scarves and mittens she is knitting as part of a huge care package to help the poor natives, when you militants can afford to occupy land, and not be at work? You want to say you are self governed, then start looking after your own. This money grab, land occupation **** is a ******* joke. Yep...nothing I like better than having an ESL grad telling me to get a job.... I guess all I can do now is make sure I'll give the Cauco-Canadian bums I see on the streets in downtown Toronto a buck to adjust for inflation. Keep the mitts coming and we'll call it square, eh? Quote There is are no such things as stupid questions, just stupid people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Who's Doing What? Posted October 25, 2006 Report Share Posted October 25, 2006 You losers still on about this? Why don't you figure out a way to feed and clothe all the natives on the lands you DO own? Is it because militant land grabs worth billions are more suited to your "Warrior" tradition? Or is it because you don't give a flying **** for your poverty stricken people and hope that by being a part of these types of actions, you will be given a bigger slice of the pie? Why the hell is my Aunt telling me about the scarves and mittens she is knitting as part of a huge care package to help the poor natives, when you militants can afford to occupy land, and not be at work? You want to say you are self governed, then start looking after your own. This money grab, land occupation **** is a ******* joke. Yep...nothing I like better than having an ESL grad telling me to get a job.... I guess all I can do now is make sure I'll give the Cauco-Canadian bums I see on the streets in downtown Toronto a buck to adjust for inflation. Keep the mitts coming and we'll call it square, eh? Everytime it comes down to it you avoid the point. You want self govt when you can't even look after your people now, when the Canadian Govt is giving handouts to First Immigrant Peoples. Quote Harper differed with his party on some key policy issues; in 1995, for example, he was one of only two Reform MPs to vote in favour of federal legislation requiring owners to register their guns. http://www.mapleleafweb.com/election/bio/harper.html "You've got to remember that west of Winnipeg the ridings the Liberals hold are dominated by people who are either recent Asian immigrants or recent migrants from eastern Canada: people who live in ghettoes and who are not integrated into western Canadian society." (Stephen Harper, Report Newsmagazine, January 22, 2001) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Temagami Scourge Posted October 25, 2006 Report Share Posted October 25, 2006 Everytime it comes down to it you avoid the point. You want self govt when you can't even look after your people now, when the Canadian Govt is giving handouts to First Immigrant Peoples. Avoid the point? This is the first time you actually made the point...and on top of that, you are trying to say that ALL Natives are mired in poverty. That is as assinine as me saying that all Whites are rich and intelligent, of which you appear to be neither. However, I understand from what you said that you haven't got a clue as to how the Canadian system works. I pay my taxes hoping that the government of Canada actually lives up to its treaty obligations, as that is how our system is designed. Ottawa sends a few bucks towards the Natives, but no where near enough to help other than to build a couple of houses every year and to get some prescriptions filled using generic drugs, instead of the kind that are available to other Canadians with a drug plan. Most of the billions Ottawa sends to natives actually goes into paying the wages of Indian Affairs employees and to cover office rental space and other infrastructure. Anything left over goes to First Nations to keep their roads from crumbling. Ottawa uses the same type of transfer payments system to flow money to the province, who flows it to the municipalities, who happen to rake in three or four times the amount per capita that the Natives get. Now, one of the reasons we pay our taxes is because Canada has signed agreements with the Aboriginal people in this country that were made in exchange for the land we live on. However, non-Aboriginals get more per capita than the Indians. Why? Indians do pay tax....I know I do...I also know that Grand river enterprises on Six Nations pays over $140 million in taxes on the cigarettes they make because many of those smokes are sold off-reserve. The entire reserve gets just under $40 million in transfers from Indian Affairs....so, you tell me, who is supporting whom? If you don't understand what I've just written, then I can always type slower to accomodate you. Quote There is are no such things as stupid questions, just stupid people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riverwind Posted October 25, 2006 Report Share Posted October 25, 2006 I also know that Grand river enterprises on Six Nations pays over $140 million in taxes on the cigarettes they make because many of those smokes are sold off-reserve.You cannot count duties paid on cigarettes as 'taxes' paid if you want to sell those smokes off reserve. American companies that want to sell cigarettes in Canada have to pay the same duties and they get nothing in return for those taxes. The only taxes that you can reasonably include are income and sales taxes paid by people living on reserve. Some how I doubt they add up to 40 million.... Quote To fly a plane, you need both a left wing and a right wing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Temagami Scourge Posted October 25, 2006 Report Share Posted October 25, 2006 River: The "duties" are taxes. The smokes are mainly going off reserve here in Canada...it is only recently that they've been going to the States and now, the German Army. That is where the duties you refer to come in....and will mean even greater amounts of money being paid out, while less goes to the First Nation in question. Still, that annoys you that natives are paying out in taxes three times what the Feds transfer to them. Ruins a bunch of stereotypes about "them tax-exempt injuns", but that is what garners me the reputation I have around these here parts... The other point is that for a guy who has long maintained that natives need to participate in the economy, you sure don't seem to appreciate it when they do. I guess us poor Injuns just can't do right by you. I assume my only recourse is to wait for Brad's auntie's mittens..... Quote There is are no such things as stupid questions, just stupid people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riverwind Posted October 25, 2006 Report Share Posted October 25, 2006 The "duties" are taxes.No they are the price SN has to pay for the privilege of selling smokes in Canada. IOW - it is a cost of doing business just like the cost of buying tobacco from the farmers. All other cigarette manufacturers have to pay the same duties and they don't pretend that these are taxes to pay for services. If Canada did not charge these excise duties then there would be no cigarette plant on SN. Cigarettes plants on Native land, like Casinos, are glorified make work projects. They are only economically feasible on reserve because regulations off reserve prohibit or severely restrict these kinds of businesses. In other words, the Canadian gov't subsidizes the SN cigaratte plant by allowing to avoid many of the taxes that an off reserve plant would have to pay.Still, that annoys you that natives are paying out in taxes three times what the Feds transfer to them.Not really. Excise duties on cigarettes paid by a cigarette manufacturer are not the same as income or sales taxes and you know it. You just choose to ignore that fact because it is convenient way to hide the subsidizes that SN gets. Quote To fly a plane, you need both a left wing and a right wing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Temagami Scourge Posted October 25, 2006 Report Share Posted October 25, 2006 River: No they are the price SN has to pay for the privilege of selling smokes in Canada. IOW - it is a cost of doing business just like the cost of buying tobacco from the farmers. All other cigarette manufacturers have to pay the same duties and they don't pretend that these are taxes to pay for services. If Canada did not charge these excise duties then there would be no cigarette plant on SN. Cigarettes plants on Native land, like Casinos, are glorified make work projects. They are only economically feasible on reserve because regulations off reserve prohibit or severely restrict these kinds of businesses. In other words, the Canadian gov't subsidizes the SN cigaratte plant by allowing to avoid many of the taxes that an off reserve plant would have to pay. Not really. Excise duties on cigarettes paid by a cigarette manufacturer are not the same as income or sales taxes and you know it. You just choose to ignore that fact because it is convenient way to hide the subsidizes that SN gets. I'll make sure that these comments go right up on the mantel with your other ones from the other day....You know, the ones where you rail on left-wing protesters for thinking that money goes on trees to pay for social programming, only to have the current government announce yet another surplus winfall today...and its climbing higher too. As I said, you like to base your arguments on what you think should happen, not on what currently occurs. That, or you do the old "well you natives brought poverty on yourselves, so if you had a real job then the problem would be solved" to getting upset because Native entrepreneurs are paying out more in taxes than the Feds give back to the same community. I guess the rest of us are left with the impression that anything Natives do is wrong, and that they are somehow "superior" than you because they know where the best fishing holes are. ...and you wonder why I think you are tiresome. Quote There is are no such things as stupid questions, just stupid people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riverwind Posted October 25, 2006 Report Share Posted October 25, 2006 That, or you do the old "well you natives brought poverty on yourselves, so if you had a real job then the problem would be solved" to getting upset because Native entrepreneurs are paying out more in taxes than the Feds give back to the same community.There you go again playing the victim. I said nothing about native entrepreneurs running businesses that compete on a equal basis with non-native businesses. I simply pointed out that certain types of businesses only exist because of Canadian gov't regulations. Why would anyone go to a Casino in Orelia if the gov't had allowed someone to build one in Scarborough? The cigarette plant in SN exists because someone thought they could exploit a tax loop hole and sell tax free cigarettes to Canadians. The gov't likely threatened to set up customs booths at the border of SN land if they didn't agree to pay something that would be equivalent to what an off reserve plant would pay. That is why it is ridiculous to point to the excise duties paid by the plant and claim SN people are paying more in tax than they receive in services. If SN was really a separate nation SN would have to pay those taxes to ship the cigarettes into Canada and would get nothing back. That is why those excise duties do not count if you want to determine whether SN is subsidized by the feds or not. Quote To fly a plane, you need both a left wing and a right wing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Temagami Scourge Posted October 25, 2006 Report Share Posted October 25, 2006 Here are a couple more salient points to chew over..the following points came from today's Hamilton Spectator: Bountrogianni said Ontario is now looking at compensation for town residents who surround the disputed site. Ontario has struck a deal for Six Nations to pay for hydro and water to the site. It will also be reimbursed for paying the bills that have been paid since the occupation. Trainer said the bills will be paid by the Six Nations band council. In essence, Six Nations is footing the bill for having people stay at the site...and will even pay the province, and the province is looking to issue a whole new set of welfare payments to the "poor, downtrodden" Caledonians. I guess the millions given to Caledonian people and businesses (which Six Nations people were boycotting, and obviously impacted the town) during the first round of "civic welfare" just wasn't enough for the poor, suffering Caucasians being "oppressed" by the loathsome Native protestors...all 15 or so of them that actually stay there 24/7. Which brings up yet another excellent point. When Caledonia first cried so loudly of their "suffering" it only took the province 100 days to fill the pockets of private citizens and businesses in Caledonia. The Cauco-Canadians folks in town looked like a bevy of starving Ethiopians with their hands stretched out looking for their cut...and then they'd turn around and call the Natives welfare bums. Ya gotta love having it both ways! I always heard the phrase that "it pays to be white", but I never thought it more than a jest until I saw all those Caledonians crying for their free money. Cripes...that sounds soooo Riverwind, one would almost think he took up residence there! Quote There is are no such things as stupid questions, just stupid people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Temagami Scourge Posted October 25, 2006 Report Share Posted October 25, 2006 There you go again playing the victim. I said nothing about native entrepreneurs running businesses that compete on a equal basis with non-native businesses. I simply pointed out that certain types of businesses only exist because of Canadian gov't regulations. No you didn't. You were telling me that the $140 million that Grand River Enterprises pays in taxes to the Feds aren't really taxes. I maintain that taxes are taxes. If you go to Encarta, it says that duties(n) are taxes. My Thesaurus tells me that another term for "duties" is taxes too. ...and before you make another foolish point, "levy" also means "duty" and "taxes" too. So don't say that these are levies. A tax is a tax, and ONE Six Nations business alone gives the Government of Canada over three times what the Government of Canada transfers to Six Nations as a whole . give me a "booyah", Jim.... BOOYAH.... Quote There is are no such things as stupid questions, just stupid people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g_bambino Posted October 25, 2006 Report Share Posted October 25, 2006 There you go again playing the victim. I said nothing about native entrepreneurs running businesses that compete on a equal basis with non-native businesses. I simply pointed out that certain types of businesses only exist because of Canadian gov't regulations. No you didn't. You were telling me that the $140 million that Grand River Enterprises pays in taxes to the Feds aren't really taxes. He said both: Businesses like cigarette manufacturing and casinos exist on Native reserves because government regulations prohibit or severely restrict their existence off-reserve, and that the duties (or taxes) paid by Native cigarette manufacturers are equivalent to import duties, which, unlike income or sales tax, do not provide any return to the paying business except the privilege to make a profit within the jurisdiction charging the duty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riverwind Posted October 25, 2006 Report Share Posted October 25, 2006 double post Quote To fly a plane, you need both a left wing and a right wing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riverwind Posted October 25, 2006 Report Share Posted October 25, 2006 No you didn't. You were telling me that the $140 million that Grand River Enterprises pays in taxes to the Feds aren't really taxes.If someone goes into a store and buys a pack of gum for $1 they will actually have to pay between $1.06 and $1.18 depending on where they are in Canada. The extra money is tax paid by _the gum purchaser_ - not the store owner. If someone goes to the US an buys a carton of cigarattes and brings it to Canada they (the purchasor) is paying the tax at the border - not the store that sold the cigarattes. If a store in Canada buys cigarettes from a US manufacturer that store has to pay the excise tax before Canada customs will allow the cigarettes into the county. Once again it is the buyer that is paying the tax - not the cigarette manufacturer. However, the rules are slightly different for a cigarette manufacturer in Canada. In these cases, Customs Canada collects the tax directly from the manufacturer because it is easier to audit and ensure proper payment of the taxes. However, this adminstrative convenience does not change the fact that tobacco excise taxes that are paid by the person who buys the cigarrettes - not the manufactuer. That is why SN cannot count the excise taxes paid as taxes 'paid' by SN. Quote To fly a plane, you need both a left wing and a right wing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Temagami Scourge Posted October 25, 2006 Report Share Posted October 25, 2006 That is why SN cannot count the excise taxes paid as taxes 'paid' by SN. I know, they are paid by a company run by a number of Six Nations entrepreneurs. Hence, this company alone gives the government of Canada three times more money than the Federal government transfers to the community as a whole . Of course, there are many other businesses that are run from Six Nations and incur income from off-reserve, so they too pay taxes...as are the people from Six Nations who commute to work in Toronto, Hamilton, Cambridge, Guelph and (gadzooks) Caledonia daily, as they pay taxes too. So, in reality, the $140 million that GRE pays is only one portion of what the community pays as a whole. However, I suppose that you'll cry out that taxes on income are really MERC expenses, so because they are mandated then they don't count either. Yeah right. Roll another one... Quote There is are no such things as stupid questions, just stupid people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Temagami Scourge Posted October 25, 2006 Report Share Posted October 25, 2006 The other salient point River, is that GRE does not charge tax on their cartons of cigarettes, which is why there are so mant smokeshops on the rez. The RCMP knew that non-natives were coming to the rez to buy cartons by the van full, so they "guesstimated" the amount of money changing hands on Six Nations, and threatened to use the Mounties to close down the plant unless the government received a portion of GRE's annual income to represent "lost" taxes due to all the non-Natives buying cigarettes there. It certainly pays to be the biggest gang around, don't it. Additionally, GRE has to have a Mountie present at their factory at all times. I know of no other Canadian business that needs this much monitoring, so I guess it doesn't pay to be Native. Oh yeah, I'm sure that you'll interpret this as yet another rationale that natives do everything illegally, but the Mountie's main job is to monitor the cash flow so that RevCan gets its cut. Do bear in mind River and G-man, that the laws are somewhat different than what you know as the norm in mainstream...although I'll give the Bam-ster credit for touching on that point briefly. Quote There is are no such things as stupid questions, just stupid people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riverwind Posted October 25, 2006 Report Share Posted October 25, 2006 Additionally, GRE has to have a Mountie present at their factory at all times. I know of no other Canadian business that needs this much monitoring, so I guess it doesn't pay to be Native.I have said many times that insisting on having special rights because of your ancestry will have negative consequences. The RCMP is only there because the tax exempt status of native bands gives legal cover to people who wish to abuse that privilege. If you don't like being treated differently then start playing by the same rules - it is that simple. If you don't want to play by the same rules then stop whining about being treated differently.In any case, you are confirming that the 'taxes' paid by the SN plant are really supposed to be paid by people buying the cigarettes so you cannot claim these monies as taxes paid by SN. The fact that the RCMP has to come and take the money directly because SN cannot be trusted to collect the taxes from the buyers does not change the fact that the money is supposed to come from the buyer. So back to the original question: do you have numbers to show that total sales and income taxes paid by all other businesses and people on reserve? Quote To fly a plane, you need both a left wing and a right wing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skyclad Posted October 26, 2006 Report Share Posted October 26, 2006 To help you out Riverwind, approx. 11,000 natives live on the reserve near Caledonia. Further, taxes are paid by the purchaser to the Ont/Canadian govt and 'collected by the manufacturer', the manufacturer is not being taxed. On the rez near Caledonia, non native people buy cigs. and gas taxfree and the natives do not collect taxes. That is a no,no as only natives with a taxfree card can buy gas/cigs without paying taxes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bradco Posted October 26, 2006 Report Share Posted October 26, 2006 Temagami Scourge: There doesn't need to be a battle with guns for Canada to be the victorious power. Just look at any internationally recognized map and see how the colour of this land that your tribe supposedly owns is coloured. Its shaded the same colour as Canada. Why? Because that land belongs to Canada as is recognized by every other official nation-state in the world. If the government refuses to give it to the natives how many states around the world will cry out against the Canadian government? When it comes down to it which claim is going to be internationally recognized? "See above. Feel free. See ya later! I hear England is pleasant in the winter time." Umm terribly sorry eh but all this land is ours now. It is internationallyrecognized as Canadian land no matter how much you want to whine about how once upon a time your ancestors lived here before Europeans came and settled it and started a state. "I bet you forgot that part. I think you truly believe that Natives sit around all day waiting for government money to arrive. I'd caution you now because you are at the point where you believe that Natives think and act like you would, which isn't exactly the case." Not all. I think it is recognized by anyone who isnt in denial that the native population has an incredibly high unemployment rate. Now if all Natives though and acted like I did they would all be enrolled in full time university studies and have their own business. Heck, whats that theyd all be successful. Dont assume anything about how I think and act "Oh....then why is it that non-native fishers on both coasts try so hard to stop the Native fishery?" Because someone has to protect the environment if the Natives wont. I had the pleasure once of watching a Native only sanctioned fishing during the salmon spawning runs. They would fillet the fish right there on the shore of the river and do it so fast that theyd make mistakes often and just chuck the dead fish into the river. Natives are clearly given special fishing rights so Id ask why they feel like they cant compete. Non-natives deserve to not be discriminated against just as natives deserve to not be discriminated against. "but you have to admit that your priests, reverends and other holy people had a hundred years of frolicking with Native children at residential school" Terrible events. Wouldnt call them my priests and reverends seeing that im not a religious person. "The "canadians" were a uniform white." Give me a break. So in this one case there was a bunch of white Canadians. Canada is one of the most multicultural societies in the world. "then why does Canada even recognize reserves and makes (sparse) treaty annuities" Benevolence. A recognition natives were here first and they ought to have an amount of land given through negotiation but inevitably on terms that are acceptable to Canada. Because unlike other nations throughout history that have effectively taken over land from other people we like to show a little bit of morality, at least as much as can possibly be present when one group has come in and taken an area over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Temagami Scourge Posted October 26, 2006 Report Share Posted October 26, 2006 There doesn't need to be a battle with guns for Canada to be the victorious power. Just look at any internationally recognized map and see how the colour of this land that your tribe supposedly owns is coloured. Its shaded the same colour as Canada. Why? Because that land belongs to Canada as is recognized by every other official nation-state in the world. Actually, I believe that the cartographers simply draw it that way. China does the same with Tibet, and yet we know that is not the case. Turkey, Iran, Syria and Iraq never draw Kurdistan in their maps, and yet we know it exists, as do the Kurds. In essence, you are arguing that Canada has every right to act in the same manner as China, Iraq and Iran. Hummmm? Nice thought process. Where do I sign up for my Communist Party card. If the government refuses to give it to the natives how many states around the world will cry out against the Canadian government? When it comes down to it which claim is going to be internationally recognized? Judging from the UN's response to Indigenous issues, all the countries with an Indigenous population that predated new arrivals from other continents have consistently opposed Indigenous rights and recognition. The main opponents are Canada, the U.S. and Austrailia. South Africa used to be among those three, but they've had a change of heart since the apartheid thingie. Be happy...at least China and Turkey support your ideals. Umm terribly sorry eh but all this land is ours now. It is internationallyrecognized as Canadian land no matter how much you want to whine about how once upon a time your ancestors lived here before Europeans came and settled it and started a state. Most of the land is Crown land now, and is being paid for through the agreements signed with the Aboriginal Nations here...just like any good leasor. That is recognized in the constitution, reflected in Canadian law, and -dare I say- known internationally. That's probably why Six Nations counts so many hyphenated-canadians among its supporters...because they generally have a more realistic view of Canada than say....you. Not all. I think it is recognized by anyone who isnt in denial that the native population has an incredibly high unemployment rate. Now if all Natives though and acted like I did they would all be enrolled in full time university studies and have their own business. you're right...silly me. I better tell the five doctors, two pilots and a couple of federal directors and one Deputy Minister who are my cousins that they should better mirror your experince. Shoot....I forgot my first cousin who recieved the Order of Canada! Damn...what a twit I am! Geez...all these intelligent and respectable people who also happen to agree with what I say... Dont assume anything about how I think and act I don't need to, you pretty much put your views in print, and I can read you like a book, which is why i'm having such a good (and incredibly easy) time countering your "points". I had the pleasure once of watching a Native only sanctioned fishing during the salmon spawning runs. They would fillet the fish right there on the shore of the river and do it so fast that theyd make mistakes often and just chuck the dead fish into the river. I once had the pleasure of watching a row of drunken cauco-Canadians pissing off a houseboat directly into the Lake I drink from. I also recall happening on a Cauco-canadian in a houseboat who asked me where the fish were at, because he wanted to set a net off the boat and hide it from the MNR. I once saw they Police Chief of North Bay come onto the Nippissing reserve to buy fresh fish from the Natives for a fish fry, and then turn around and complain about Native fish harvesting. Clearly, the problem lies with Cauco-Canadian double standards more than anything else. What I find most amusing, though, is how you say Natives should work, and then criticize them for having a fishing business. A tad contrary, aren't we? Natives are clearly given special fishing rights so Id ask why they feel like they cant compete. whoa there buddy...no less than a few sentences before you were complaining about the native fishery, and now you are wondering why they can't compete? come on now....get your thoughts straight...Having been to B.C., I know how much the non-native fishers revile the Native fishery, so how come you don't seem to have a clue that this is occuring? Cauco-Canadian fishers burnt down Native ships at Burnt Church for the same reason on the opposite coast. Are you sure you aren't an ESL grad? Are you new to this country, or did you start following the news in the past month? Non-natives deserve to not be discriminated against just as natives deserve to not be discriminated against. Finally...a point! Way to go lad! I even agree with you. Terrible events. Wouldnt call them my priests and reverends seeing that im not a religious person. Yeah, but I bet you look like the priests and reverends, and probably look like Pickton, Bernardo and Mayerthorpe Rozsko than I do. I tend to look more like Elijah Harper,,,especially when I'm wearing my suit and tie. Give me a break. So in this one case there was a bunch of white Canadians. You miss my point, lad. You are trying to talk like you are representative of all "Canadians", very much like the people who participated in the "March for Freedom"...even drawning on international recognition to support your perspective, as those "Canadians did". however, the rest of Canada happened to be enjoying a wonderful potluck on the reclamation site. A plethora of what you'd call "hyphenated-Canadians", as well as Cauco-Canadians. In essence, I have a hard time believing that you are representative of "general canadian beliefs", when it was made quite clear to me that most of Canada sided with the Natives that day...by actually showing up. Canada is one of the most multicultural societies in the world. Yes...and most of the multi's seem to take the side of the Natives. Disturbing thought eh? Maybe you should demand better border security, or find support for your cause among people of color. "then why does Canada even recognize reserves and makes (sparse) treaty annuities"Benevolence. A recognition natives were here first and they ought to have an amount of land given through negotiation but inevitably on terms that are acceptable to Canada. On one hand you say "benevolence", which means out of the goodness of one's heart, and then go on to explain the actual legalities of the situation. which one is it? Because unlike other nations throughout history that have effectively taken over land from other people we like to show a little bit of morality, at least as much as can possibly be present when one group has come in and taken an area over. please...can you tell me what the name of the war was that determined the take over of the land? Here I thought I knew my history, but you present a version that I'm not familiar with...enlighten me. Quote There is are no such things as stupid questions, just stupid people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Temagami Scourge Posted October 26, 2006 Report Share Posted October 26, 2006 River: do you have numbers to show that total sales and income taxes paid by all other businesses and people on reserve? Nope. I only know about the money GRE gives to the Feds, and the money the Feds transfers to Six Nations...regardless, whatever the amount is, it will only increase the $140 million GRE gives to the Government of Canada....which will still work out to three times more than what the rez receives from Federal transfer payments. The bottom line is that Six Nations is putting at least three times more money into the Federal government's general ledger than what they get back from the same account. In simple terms, Six Nations is suffering from a fiscal gap...just like Ontario. Terrible, really. That certainly knocks the props from under the argument that Natives are government freeloaders, when clearly all of Canada enjoys the contributions Six Nation's makes.... Quote There is are no such things as stupid questions, just stupid people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riverwind Posted October 26, 2006 Report Share Posted October 26, 2006 The bottom line is that Six Nations is putting at least three times more money into the Federal government's general ledger than what they get back from the same account.You have no numbers to back that statement up. As I have already explained the money paid in cigarette excise taxes is _not_ money that SN earns. It is an excise tax that the buyer of the cigarettes pays. If you want to make any statement about a 'fiscal gap' between SN and the feds then please provide numbers that exclude excise taxes collected by SN on behalf of the buyer.That certainly knocks the props from under the argument that Natives are government freeloaders, when clearly all of Canada enjoys the contributions Six Nation's makes....It does nothing of the sort - all you demonstrated is, like Quebec, SN has created a set of fictional numbers that allows them to self-righteously and incorrectly declare that they contribute more than they receive. If you really want to make the case that SN pays more than it receives then provide numbers that do not include excise taxes. Quote To fly a plane, you need both a left wing and a right wing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Temagami Scourge Posted October 26, 2006 Report Share Posted October 26, 2006 You have no numbers to back that statement up. As I have already explained the money paid in cigarette excise taxes is _not_ money that SN earns. It is an excise tax that the buyer of the cigarettes pays. If you want to make any statement about a 'fiscal gap' between SN and the feds then please provide numbers that exclude excise taxes collected by SN on behalf of the buyer. Yes I do. Both the Hamilton Spectator and the Turtle Island News stated that GRE pays over $140 million to the Federal government. I already told you that Six Nations does not charge tax on cigarettes (hence the constant flow of non-natives to the reserve to buy smokes) so the entire amount comes from GRE's earnings. Six Nations also gets just under $40 million per annum in transfer payments from the Feds (which can be seen in the Spec, the Turtle Island News and on INAC's website). Regardless of how you want to spin it, one company gives the Federal government $140 million plus every year in taxes, and the community as a whole receives less than a third of that amount back. The point is you are flogging a dead horse. I know you know about excise taxes and how they work in mainstream, but you are talking about a different animal here that has become quite apparent that you know nothing about. I'm sorry for spoiling your argument, but Six Nations is suffering a fiscal gap, and yet you have some Cauco-Canadians saying they are government freeloaders. The bottom line is that they pay their own share, and then some more to look after Canada, but receive no credit for it because people like you refuse to believe that Natives contribute to this country. I understand your dilemma, and I hope I'm educating you on this issue. If you really want to make the case that SN pays more than it receives then provide numbers that do not include excise taxes I told you, Six Nations does not collect tax on their cigarettes, so the money comes directly from GRE annual earnings. I'm sorry this hurts, but it is the truth. How can one collect an excise on an untaxed product? What's next, are you going to argue the earth is flat judging from where you stand? Quote There is are no such things as stupid questions, just stupid people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riverwind Posted October 26, 2006 Report Share Posted October 26, 2006 I told you, Six Nations does not collect tax on their cigarettes, so the money comes directly from GRE annual earnings. I'm sorry this hurts, but it is the truth. How can one collect an excise on an untaxed product? What's next, are you going to argue the earth is flat judging from where you stand?You clearly know nothing about how accounting works. I collect GST from my customers and that money goes into my bank account. I will later send a check to the gov't for the amount of GST that I collected. However, the fact that I am giving money to the gov't does not mean that money comes from my earnings. I am simply acting as a tax collector for the gov't. Sometimes I will tell my customers that they don't have to pay the GST and they are happy. However, that is simply a sales tactic that does not change the fact that the customer is still paying the 6% GST and I do not report that 6% as money that I earned on my tax return.SN is legally obligated to collect excise taxes from all non-reserve people who come onto the reserve to buy smokes. SN may tell them that they don't have to pay tax but that is nothing more than a sales technique since SN must still collect the tax. The fact that the SN tabacco company later submits a check to gov't does not mean this money comes from their earnings. Claiming that it does come from its earnings is an outright lie. A corporate executive who tried to report GST/excise taxes collected as earnings for a company would face jail time for fraud. IOW, no matter how much you try to spin it those excise taxes are not being paid by SN and cannot be used to prove your claim that SN pays more in tax than it receives in funding. Quote To fly a plane, you need both a left wing and a right wing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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