Reuters: Canada's Harper under fire for clean air plan

[gerryhatrick]

Canada's Harper under fire for clean air plan

OTTAWA, Oct 11 (Reuters) - Canada's Conservative government tried to deflect criticism on Wednesday that its environmental plan may actually permit greenhouse gas emissions to increase, contrary to the country's Kyoto commitments.

snip

But pundits pounded the minority government's Clean Air Act as no more than "political smog", as a headline in the influential daily the Globe and Mail put it on Wednesday, aimed at wooing voters who have pledged their support for Kyoto.

"We can probably abandon any hope of measurable improvements in air quality for many years to come," wrote Globe columnist John Ibbitson.

Critics say Harper is keenly aware that he needs to act quickly on environmental issues if he is to have any chance of winning a majority in the next election, widely expected next spring.

"As a strategy to win over the unconverted, Harper's Kyoto knockout gambit did not get off to a promising start," said Don Martin, columnist for the National Post newspaper.

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N11404196.htm

To me and many other Canadians this is the #1 issue for our government. If they stall and double-talk this one there will be a heavy price to pay at the polls.

[gerryhatrick]

And then there's this from CanWest:

Harper's "hot-air" approach to the environment, not enough activists say

VANCOUVER - Prime Minister Stephen Harper's new green plan is a ''hot-air'' approach that would continue to accelerate the devastating effects of global warming by giving major industry polluters an easy ride, leading Canadian environmentalists said Tuesday.

http://www.canada.com/topics/news/politics...32b&k=63630

[geoffrey]

If your #1 issue is global warming in your life, your an ivory tower academic with little grip on the realities of most Canadians. Most Canadians are struggling to make ends meet, living paycheque to paycheque, getting their kids through school, waiting 6-8 hours in hospital waiting rooms.

Global warming (something Canada can't actually do anything about) isn't an issue to anyone in real Canada.

Back to the plan and out of the media rhetoric... Harper's plan can happen. Emissions skyrocketed through the Liberal's more aggressive plan. So Gerry, you know this, your not stupid. It's not the plan, it's the implementation.

I see implementation here... Harper is going to enforce pollution laws instead of having them voluntary... that's a bit of a good step, no? The Liberal plan had no implementation other than having Rick Mercer shout about "Da one tonne challenge!"

Who's the leader on green plans? I'd take Mulroney or Harper anyday over the Liberal track record of absolute failure.

[gerryhatrick]

If your #1 issue is global warming in your life, your an ivory tower academic with little grip on the realities of most Canadians. Most Canadians are struggling to make ends meet, living paycheque to paycheque, getting their kids through school, waiting 6-8 hours in hospital waiting rooms.

Global warming (something Canada can't actually do anything about) isn't an issue to anyone in real Canada.

Global Warming is something we can't actually do anything about? And you accuse me of having little grip on reality.

I'm not goign to waste my time trotting out the science and the consensus around it for anyone still hanging desperately onto a dream that it's not happening or that we're not causing it.

I will point out this to you though, which demonstrates that you're the one not understanding the issues important to most Canadians:

Canadians more worried about climate change

Canadian Press

OTTAWA -- Climate change has jumped dramatically on the scale of Canadians' worries over the last year and most people want the government to meet Kyoto targets, according to an environmental poll.

snip

It found that 77 per cent believe Canada should meet or exceed its Kyoto targets for cutting emissions.

More than 90 per cent of Canadians said climate change will be a serious problem if not addressed, and 75 per cent believe that a "good amount" or a "great deal" can be done to fight the problem.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...me=&no_ads=

Guess you should come down from your "ivory tower" and find out what's on Canadians minds!

[geoffrey]

Global Warming is something we can't actually do anything about? And you accuse me of having little grip on reality.

I'm not goign to waste my time trotting out the science and the consensus around it for anyone still hanging desperately onto a dream that it's not happening or that we're not causing it.

Humans contribute, no doubt. But Canada can't do anything with China, the States, India all producing exponentially higher amounts. Us completely shutting off emissions would be less than 1% in the real scheme of things. It'd do nothing.

Guess you should come down from your "ivory tower" and find out what's on Canadians minds!

Important doesn't mean most important. Phrase the question as "Would you support significantly higher gas prices due to government taxation to reduce greenhouse gas emissions?" and I bet 95% would be opposed to such measures. That's Ignatieff's greenhouse plan, he thinks gas prices are too low.

That's out of touch with Canadians.

[Charles Anthony]

To me and many other Canadians this is the #1 issue for our government. If they stall and double-talk this one there will be a heavy price to pay at the polls.

Well, then go to the polls and use your almighty Power To Vote and make a difference.

I'm not goign to waste my time trotting out the science and the consensus around it for anyone still

However, you will waste bandwidth with your rant. You will not explain the science but you will rant.

With more than due respect, what the do you want?

[B. Max]

I'm not goign to waste my time trotting out the science and the consensus around it for anyone still hanging desperately onto a dream that it's not happening or that we're not causing it.

That's because there is none that hasn't been proven to be junk science and outright fraudulent.

[gerryhatrick]

However, you will waste bandwidth with your rant. You will not explain the science but you will rant.

With more than due respect, what the do you want?

I have posted a news item. Sorry if it upsets you, but perhaps you can try to control your emotions and give things a little more perspective.

[Higgly]

Global warming has been widely accepted by the scientific community as fact. The only junk science is coming out of Washington and has been sponsored by all the usual suspects. The Inuit are talking about real changes in the ice cap and major problems finding their traditional sources of food. The size of the hole in the Antarctic ozone layer is larger than ever.

This is a big problem and it is getting bigger all the time.

[B. Max]

Global warming has been widely accepted by the scientific community as fact. The only junk science is coming out of Washington and has been sponsored by all the usual suspects. The Inuit are talking about real changes in the ice cap and major problems finding their traditional sources of food. The size of the hole in the Antarctic ozone layer is larger than ever.

This is a big problem and it is getting bigger all the time.

Nice spin. Now how about some facts that relate directly to the subject.

HELLOW

[Charles Anthony]

I have posted a news item. Sorry if it upsets you,

Posting a news item with very little commentary does not upset me.

You categorically refuse to explain the issue or to provide references to further reading. Myself, I do not know enough about global warming.

but perhaps you can try to control your emotions and give things a little more perspective.

Thank you for the advice. I will try to control my emotions. Should I learn from your example?

Oh, by the way, congratulations on leading A THREAD OF YOUR OWN to degenerate until it got closed by the moderator.

[gerryhatrick]

I have posted a news item. Sorry if it upsets you,

Posting a news item with very little commentary does not upset me.

You categorically refuse to explain the issue or to provide references to further reading. Myself, I do not know enough about global warming.

This thread is not for me to explain Global Warming to you or to provide you "references to further reading".

If you are ignorant on the subject then the facts are easily found online.

The fact that Global Warming is a problem is not being disputed by any of the players in the topic. The topic is relative to "clean air" plan Harper has produced and the critisism of it.

[watching&waiting]

I really can not se where Global warming really has people all upset. I can see that the way it is portrayed to garner the most reaction from people, is something I actually thought most would see through. I we have another mild winter it will be global warmings fault. If we have a winter with large snowfalls and if we have a cold winter it will be be that iceages are a coming.

there was a volcano eruption last week and it spewed as much gas and debris as man has for aleast a couple years. So where is the hue and cry? Some will say because we can not control that but we can control what man does. So Tell me just how you yuorselves are cutting back to make this change, and if all those who say they are, actually did do as they say then there would be little left to chnage now would n't there.

If as is claimed that the vast majority of Canadians agree they must change their ways to help against global warming actually do then should our emmissions not have dropped? I guess it is only those vocal few we hear from over and over again. The last article I read said something about if man continued to increase at the same level for the next hundred years, there would be problems of glaciers being melted and sea rising by 3 meters 100 years ffrom now. Well I do not plan on being here when that happens and since it looks like this would mincrease any way even if we all stopped but instaed of 100 it may take 200. So I say lets split the difference and keep it where we are and be good for 150 years. So if I do not thing about the future that far ahead, as you and I both know that by then science will have learned many things and will probably be able to do wonders that we can not even think of today. So I really wonder just what these "sky is falling crowd" really are doing. Me thinks thou does protest too much.

[gerryhatrick]

I really can not se where Global warming really has people all upset. I can see that the way it is portrayed to garner the most reaction from people, is something I actually thought most would see through.

You see a conspiracy at work here? Is Global Warming a conspiracy of some sort? What is the reward for the conspirators, if that be the case?

[Charles Anthony]

You see a conspiracy at work here?

I do not. I just see an unexplainable rant.

[gerryhatrick]

You see a conspiracy at work here?

I do not. I just see an unexplainable rant.

Avoidence, very clever.

You say you don't understand why people are concerned with Global Warming. That is an admission of ignorance on the subject. You say you can, however, see how Global Warming has been purposely portrayed to garner a reaction from people, but you can't understand why others don't "see through" that.

And you say I'm the one ranting.

[gerryhatrick]

The critisism of this "plan" is best described in the second link provided in the second post.

http://www.canada.com/topics/news/politics...k=63630&p=2

The main problem is that the legislation already exists, so why are they wasting time creating new legislation?

That is the question that they're going to have to answer over and over, and pointing a finger at the Liberals is not an answer.

[JAh-man]

It's funny how the people who defend Harper all come from a province which has the least pollution standards and the most polution per capita..

[B. Max]

It's funny how the people who defend Harper all come from a province which has the least pollution standards and the most polution per capita..

Would that be the same province who over the last thirty years has had over two hundred billion dollars extorted from it to keep the rest of the country from turning into a third world backwater, and who has taken in the rest of the countries unemployed.

[Shakeyhands]

I think its the one that gladly stuck its hand out before oil was discovered.

This Clean Air act is a joke, why even bother pretending?

[B. Max]

I think its the one that gladly stuck its hand out before oil was discovered.

This Clean Air act is a joke, why even bother pretending?

You must be referring to revisionist history. The federal government has persecuted Alberta since it join confederation.

http://www.freealberta.com/historical_grievances.html

How would one know if the clean air act is a joke, before one knows the details.

[geoffrey]

You must be referring to revisionist history. The federal government has persecuted Alberta since it join confederation.

http://www.freealberta.com/historical_grievances.html

He was indeed mistaken. Alberta has always been the resource colony to the rest of Canada. No say in decisions, disrespect from most of the media and ROC and yet the ROC is entitled to everything we have.

How would one know if the clean air act is a joke, before one knows the details.

What I do know is that greenhouse emissions skyrocketed during the Liberal plan. It can't possibly be worse then Kyoto for results.

[jbg]

If your #1 issue is global warming in your life, your an ivory tower academic with little grip on the realities of most Canadians. Most Canadians are struggling to make ends meet, living paycheque to paycheque, getting their kids through school, waiting 6-8 hours in hospital waiting rooms.

Global warming (something Canada can't actually do anything about) isn't an issue to anyone in real Canada.

Back to the plan and out of the media rhetoric... Harper's plan can happen. Emissions skyrocketed through the Liberal's more aggressive plan. So Gerry, you know this, your not stupid. It's not the plan, it's the implementation.

One problem with the left in Canada, US and AU is that they're totally out-of-touch with people's real issues. Most people are concerned with balancing their checkbook every month, not some "feel good" approach to a doubtful envirnomental threat.

[B. Max]

If the green whack jobs had their way people wouldn't need a cheque book because they wouldn't have a pay cheque. The greens are the threat to the world not global warming.

[Rovik]

What I do know is that greenhouse emissions skyrocketed during the Liberal plan. It can't possibly be worse then Kyoto for results.

I agree, the Liberals screwed up because they weren't willing to pay the political price for implementing the changes that were required for Kyoto. The Conservatives govt., know that they would also pay a political price, especially in their stronghold of Alberta, refuse to take seriously, the warning of future disaster by the increase of greenhouse gases and its negative influence on Earth's climate.

It's typical human rationale. Who cares about the future, let's think about today. The economy is booming, Canada is doing well from oil and gas, the automobile industry has a major impact on Ontario's economy, people are making lots of money, there are lots of jobs....things are great so why would we want to change that.

Let's zoom back 100 years in the fishery, lots of fish, people are working, companies are making money...things are great. What? There are people that say if we catch too much fish that eventually the fish will diminish, jobs will be lost, species of fish will be threatened to the point of extinction...nahhh...just scare tactics, it'll never happen. People back then only thought of the now, not the future.

The same thing is happening today. Industry continues to spew out gases, there are indications that the Greenhouse Effect is in its starting stages. A majority of scientists say that its points to devastation in the future. Of course, some of you will say that there are also scientists that say it won't happen, but I would have to point out two things. These scientists are in the minority and many are employed by ogranizations that are sympathetic to "big business." The tobacco industry for years used to cite scientists that said who there was no proof that tobacco was harmful....

The problem is that we are too greedy, who cares about 100 years from now, when we won't even be alive...all we care about is the now and the near future. I wonder what our grand grandchildren, when they are suffering from the full impact of greenhouse gases will ask about this generation. One question I'm sure they will ask is why we didn't try to stop the devastation from starting when we had the chance and they will wonder how we could have been so cruel to allow it to happen.