Iraq Is On Track

[Craig Read]

Yes that is the price we pay in a free and open society.

We have to listen to shrills like Tim Robbins and Sean Penn-cil Head. Having to stomach their nonsense is proof enough that people don't accept nor acknowledge the rarity in history of the freedoms and wealth we today enjoy and take for granted.

For these anti-patriots, life has no meaning, history no evidence, the world no dangers, and America no goodness. They state their mindless tripe without admitting that they have achieved more money and fame in their lives, then they deserve - due to the system they hate.

[d4dev]

But how can anyone disagree that capitalism is only for the capitalists, not for the common man. The basis of socialism was the removal of the exploitation of workers by capitalists during the industrial revolution. The principle of capitalism as very often stated is similar to the law of the jungle" The fittest shall survive" whereas in Socialism, it is the responsibility of the state to provide for the basic needs of the entire population. How else can you explain the emergence of China as a major world power just 50 years after independance, similarly the USSR which became a superpower just 30 years after the revolution?

[d4dev]

Anyone want to dispute the fact that unlike in the US, it is very rare in Canada to see beggars squatting on the streets? That is what is called a well planned economy, even medicines are cheaper than in the US. Canada does not go on an attacking spree around the world and so has more money to spend and disribute wisely among it's populace than the US does.

[Hugo]

But how can anyone disagree that capitalism is only for the capitalists, not for the common man.

Easy. Take a look at the standard of living, health, life expectancy etc. of the average Soviet citizen, any point since 1917. Then compare it to the average American citizen, same time period. Enough said.

Hard to believe there are still Marxists in this day and age... it's like the Flat Earth Society.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear Mr. Read,

Even Russia is a poor example of the theories of Marx. Hutterite colonies are 'truer marxists' than Russia. And far more profitable than almost any 'capitalist' farmer in North America. Mind you, Canada has controls such as wheat boards, and the US heavily subsidizes farming also.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear Hugo,

Easy. Take a look at the standard of living, health, life expectancy etc. of the average Soviet citizen, any point since 1917. Then compare it to the average American citizen, same time period. Enough said.

Marxism is an economic system, totalitarianism a Leninist one. Russia is a piss-poor example of marxism.

Canada and Sweden are midgets compared to the capitalist giants of the USA and Japan.

These are far better countries to live in, safer and more equal, than either the US or Russia. Would move from Canada to Sweden waaaay before the US or Russia. Lots of other countries are way better for overall standards of living.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear Mr. Read,

Canada ...- enjoys a lower standard of living, less freedoms ...and I would argue, a lower morality, ..., and less concern for community,

Some of your points are valid, but these are silly. Lower morality???I have met many Americans who are disgusted by what America is becoming.

What once was unthinkable, morally, is now becoming commonplace in the USA. I wretch at what 'American society' values above all else. That is the biggest reason why I do not watch television anymore.

[nova_satori]

However your basic idea that the US people are not behind the rebuilding of Iraq is wrong.

Likewise as your idea that people are for pre-emptive war on false evidence.

oe and Jane six pack has a more intuitive and realistic assessment of what must be done than the Liberal gad fly's at Harvard .

Then you're one of the few people who believe with terrible education, a joke for popular culture, dumbed down newspapers, and little knowledge of the world gives someone a better realistic assessment of what must be done then one who has studied under the best professors in the world, who has more resources avaliable then the average US agency, who are some of the brightest people in the world, who have been hand picked to lead the world.

I don't understand how you can trash some of the best higher learning instutions on the world. According to your belief, the Ivys, Oxford, Amherst, and a whole slew of the most sought after schools are simply piles of garbage.

If that doesn't show your complete hypocricasy nothing does.

Some Iraqis know that they are getting a precious gift and are grateful. Others are snobish and don't know any better.

Perfect uneducated, arrogant western opinion with NO influence or touch with ANY middle easterner. Pathetic.

[Hugo]

Russia is a piss-poor example of marxism.

Then by all means, please name me a marxist state that has achieved higher standards of living than the USA or Japan.

These are far better countries to live in, safer and more equal, than either the US or Russia.

Canada's place is rapidly slipping. Real incomes are lower than in the USA, taxes higher, essential services harder to come by, incidence of crime is higher.

I'd also like you to tell me how Sweden and Canada are "more equal" than the USA or Japan, please.

[FastNed]

Nova, in your latest rant against Craig, you said:

"Then you're one of the few people who believe with terrible education, a joke for popular culture, dumbed down newspapers, and little knowledge of the world gives someone a better realistic assessment of what must be done then one who has studied under the best professors in the world, who has more resources avaliable then the average US agency, who are some of the brightest people in the world, who have been hand picked to lead the world." (emphasis added)

You have actually 'outed" yourself as a Tranzi! Why am I not surprised.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear Hugo,

Your request,

please name me a marxist state that has achieved higher standards of living than the USA or Japan.

is very difficult to assess. Marxist states of less military strength than the US (in the west) are not permitted to exist, even if they are on the road to proving their worth. Cuba, for example, only turned to the USSR after crippling embargoes by the US for the US did not want to see marxism proven as a viable possiblility.

In response, from memory, offer as a proven example, Hutterites. While they are collective farmers, economically they are proving that 'marxism', effort for the good of the colony, benefits the good of all, has worked. They are the fastest and largest 'aquirers of farmland' in western Canada. All of their needs are met and then some.

Which brings about the question, what is a 'high standard of living? Knowing that you will be able to eat tomorrow? A roof over one's head? Today and tomorrow?

To see a doctor when needed? Or is it a 9 hole golf course in your back yard? 100 Million a year? For pretending to be a doctor? While a homeless person from the streets of Chicago dies at your feet from gunshot wounds inflicted by a crack addict because they thought you were a doctor??

incidence of crime is higher.

You have got to be kidding.

[Craig Read]

No he is not kidding. According the Economist world of numbers, Canada has the following higher crime rates than the US:

Serious assaults per 100.000 people is at 140.2 in Canada double that of the USA.

Theft per 100.000 people is 4000 in Canada more than double that of the USA.

The murder rate in Paris and London is higher per capita than in New York.

The corruption in socialist economies as measured by black market activity, mafia activity, and illegal business far exceeds anything in an open economy. Don't believe me, take a trip to Moscow, Havanna, Lagos, Tangiers, Teheran and open your eyes and look around.

Any asset worth taking is stolen by gov't or criminal interests. Your bank transfers are traced. Your bank account balances are known to criminals. Your business dealings are known to criminals. You pay security fees so they don't beat the crap out of you, when they feel like it.

And, as happened in Russia with a guy working for me, they will kill you [in this case stabbed 34 times] for a few grand in cash after you withdraw it from the bank.

Socialism is a moral rot. Community service ? No that is the State's job. Private charity ? Me thinketh not, all my money goes to taxes, State's job. Clean up my community ? No thanks, too busy, State's job. Care about my neighbours ? Hell no, don't even know their names, State's job. Get involved in Civic life ? No thanks, State's job. Defend what built up my country in the first place ? No, why bother, the West is evil and white people are stupid. State's job to do that anyways. Understand freedom ? No thanks, have to watch Survivor. State's job to do that.

Responsibility ? Individualism ? Commitment to building a society ?

Yawn say the socialists, what is important is conformity, brain washing, selective history, manipulation of facts, state power, mercantilism, limiting freedom and regulating thought.

Other than that a great system.

[Hugo]

In response, from memory, offer as a proven example, Hutterites.

I already went over this point, I think, with Lost in Manitoba. We agreed that the Marxist system can work but only in a community measured in tens of families or smaller. To therefore take this principle and want to apply it on a national scale is akin to taking a lawnmower engine, putting it in a locomotive and then being surprised when it fails to haul a 50-car coal train, saying, "Well, it worked in the lawnmower!"

Cuba, for example, only turned to the USSR after crippling embargoes by the US for the US did not want to see marxism proven as a viable possiblility.

Cuba actually turned to the USSR first, and Kruschev decided to take a gamble and back him, not knowing which side he would end up on. The USA reacted badly to Castro because they perceived him as a potential enemy, not for fear that he would become Marxist, and as the Monroe Doctrine and even common sense tell you, it's not a good idea having an enemy nation 90 miles from Florida - just look at the missile crisis.

Anyway, what are you saying - that the success of Marxist economies depends upon trade with capitalist economies around it, and that the Marxist economy can only succeed when capitalist economies aid it?

Some endorsement!

While a homeless person from the streets of Chicago dies at your feet from gunshot wounds inflicted by a crack addict because they thought you were a doctor??

What on earth are you talking about?

As regards your question, what is a high standard of living, I would have thought it should be obvious to anyone with a knowledge of economics. A higher real income, longer life expectancy, higher caloric intake, greater disposable income, greater availability of consumer goods, and so forth. All things that capitalist economies provide in spades, and all things that socialist economies desperately try to provide and fail utterly.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear Hugo,

Anyway, what are you saying - that the success of Marxist economies depends upon trade with capitalist economies around it, and that the Marxist economy can only succeed when capitalist economies aid it?

This point is deeper for both capitalist and marxist economies. A state of either bent trades with states of either bent.

The US trades heavily with China, a totalitarian-marxist, or communist state. It does so because slavery is highly profitable. A marxist (or heavily socialist) state can trade with anyone, and be 'profitable'. The problem lies with (in the western hemisphere) the US does not wish to see any socialist country suceed and will use military might to ensure it's failure. Nicaragua, El Salvador, etc. tried to adopt 'marxist economics' and the US used 'fear of communist expansion' as a ruse to deny the peoples of these countries the right of self-determination.

The US simply abhors the notion of sharing.

"All for one and one for all" is anathema, for they believe the best way is "every man for himself".

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear Mr. Read,

Understand freedom ? No thanks, have to watch Survivor. State's job to do that.

Ahh yes, Survivor. I abhor television, and this show most of all. I have never seen an episode, but from what I understand, it is about losing one's moral compass, backstabbing, and throwing away the value of friends and community for the sake of individual gain.

Sounds like America in a nutshell. No wonder it is so popular. If humans are indeed born 'tabula rasa', 'Survivor' is the Satan Himself as author of 'the book of life'.

[Hugo]

the US does not wish to see any socialist country suceed and will use military might to ensure it's failure.

No, you have that backwards. The USSR wished to see every socialist country succeed and used its military might to ensure it, whether it be invasion of a foreign country to speed "building socialism" or crushing dissent in Eastern Europe.

Why do you think that the USA was opposed to socialism anyway? I would like to get your thoughts on this.

I think there are some serious blinders in your thinking. You believe that the failures of capitalism are due to capitalism, and that the failures of Marxism are due to capitalism. I believe you are one of what Lenin termed the "useful idiots", people who decry the system that nurtures and protects them and endorse the system that would crush and impoverish them.

Regardless, Marxism is a grossly unfair and immoral system, even on paper.

[Hugo]

Oh, and you never answered me:

I'd also like you to tell me how Sweden and Canada are "more equal" than the USA or Japan, please.

We can debate, but if you are going to ignore the parts of my posts that weaken your position and pick upon one or two points that you feel you can attack, it speaks volumes about the tenability of your arguments. That which can brook no criticism is inherently flawed - part and parcel of Communist suppression of freedoms, I'm afraid.

[d4dev]

Guys, have anyone of you ever read Karl Marx's Das Capital? I have generally noticed that whatever the people know here about Communism is only what the US has been propagating about it since the cold war. Communism as a theory is based on the ideals of equality and humanism, redistribution and the benefit of the society and the state at large. That is why communist countries often achieve double digit growth rates as in the case of the USSR or China whereas even capitalist economies fail after years of market deregulation. The best ex of this are the so called "South East Asian tiger" economies of Malaysia, Singapore, Indonesia and the like which faced an economic crisis around 4/5 yrs back because of too much deregulation. But anyway, this is not the topic of the thread so let's stay in topic guys.

[Hugo]

Guys, have anyone of you ever read Karl Marx's Das Capital?

Yes. Did you know that Karl Marx himself had no job and no independent means, and lived off the wealth of a friend who owned several factories and made his money from "exploiting the proletariat"? Did you also know that he had an affair with said friend's housemaid, and when she became pregnant, had her sent to a workhouse and denied all involvement or responsibility? Oh, yes, certainly Marx really, really believed all the crap that he wrote.

Communism as a theory is based on the ideals of equality and humanism, redistribution and the benefit of the society and the state at large.

No, it's based on what law and morality calls "theft" - taking wealth away from those who have earnt it and giving it to those who have not earnt anything.

That is why communist countries often achieve double digit growth rates as in the case of the USSR or China whereas even capitalist economies fail after years of market deregulation.

The books were always cooked, which you'll see if you actually study the Soviet or Chinese economies in any depth. In the midst of terrible famines, both countries proclaimed that they had quadrupled food output. Similarly, communist countries generally sacrifice their economies to the good of a few industries - witness Chinese steel production in the so-called Great Leap Forward.

Please go to your local library and check out a book called "Wild Swans", by Jung Chang. It's a true story of Chang's grandmother, mother and herself, who lived through the last days of the Emperor, the warlord phase, WWII, and Communism. It's an eye-opener for those who believe the drivel that Maoists spill on a regular basis.

[Craig Read]

Hugo thanks man, could not have said it better. I hate ignorance.

Here is an excerpt from an interview with Bruce Willis on Iraq. Willis was there performing for the Troops. I am no fan of Hollywood, but I have to hand it to Willis - he states plainly that things are going better than the media reports in the US, and that the Iraqi's WANT US troops there, NOT UN troops [France and Annan please go away]. Another example from someone who has actually BEEN there.

WILLIS:  I see Saddam Hussein as a gangster and a terrorist who raped his own country for 30 years, and to simply abandon Iraq now would be a crime. 

.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,99074,00.html

Some refreshing common sense.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear Hugo,

I do apologize for not answering all of your post,

We can debate, but if you are going to ignore the parts of my posts that weaken your position and pick upon one or two points

I am sure you can understand that we are all often pressed for time. I do enjoy this forum, and often there are things I would like to say and reply to, but do not have the time. My post was in no way intended to 'pick the few things' I could argue and 'ignore the rest'.

As to Canada, for example, equality-wise, we have a public healthcare (rickety as it is) that offers health care coverage to all, not just those with 'insurance plans' and the like. I am not sure if you remember this, but Blue Cross/Blue Shield was fined about 100,000,000 dollars for shredding insurance claims in the US. Some coverage. Mammon uber alles.

Schools, roads, all sorts of infrastructure are 'free', as in no 'toll booths' save a few exceptions. To compare the 'basic needs' of a society, such as education, health care, individual rights and freedoms, public transit, etc. I would much rather raise a family in Canada than almost anywhere else.

[Craig Read]

Hey lads this post in on Iraq !!! Anyways;

Flea, you can add to your list; higher petty crime, lower living standards, less disposable income, a far less efficient governing system with no checks and balances, a Confederation where Toronto and Calgary pay all the bills, a one party Federal state, a media that is biased in favor of socialism, a health system that wastes billions, makes you wait, has technology/doctor/nurse shortages and is ranked 19th by the OECD and WHO [30th actually on the WHO list for some areas], and a military that could not storm and take Whitehorse.

Many things to fix. As for Sweden, been there, worked with Swedes and understand now why they drink a lot and have the world's highest suicide rate.

People who want freedom say No thanks to the Swedish model.

Hugo and I presented some good reasons why socialism fails, you offered only one comeback "I love Canada". This is not sensible. Have you lived in the US ? Have you worked there ? Do you know any Americans ? Why is the Canadian system superior to the US - list concrete reasons - I listed many issues above, refute them.

As for Nova, I have no idea why he is allowed to post here. Another example of his childishness and the obvious contradiction in his 'thinking'. As usual Nova is utterly confused, on the one hand he hates the US, on the other he believes the Ivy League is where the geniuses reside and where our leaders must come from, an inherent logical paradox that he does not even recognise himself:

"Then you're one of the few people who believe with terrible education, a joke for popular culture, dumbed down newspapers, and little knowledge of the world gives someone a better realistic assessment of what must be done then one who has studied under the best professors in the world, who has more resources avaliable then the average US agency, who are some of the brightest people in the world, who have been hand picked to lead the world." (emphasis added)

This is pure racism. As opposed to the highbrow Canadian content on Cdn. TV such as Canadian Idol, the Beachcombers, and btw Cdns apparently per capita watch more of Survivor than Americans according to Nielsen.

None of the above sentences can be justified.

-'terrible education' - you just stated that the Ivy League has the best and the brightest, yet you contradict yourself by stating that the education system is terrible. Which is it ? I listed a post citing problems with US public education but are you stating that ALL education is bad ??? How do you reconcile that with your love for the Ivy League ?

-'dumbed down newspapers, and little knowledge of the world' - as opposed to what the Toronto Star and CBC ? I would hardly call the WSJ, the Post or even god forbid the NY Times as dumbed down. Even the Times makes coherent if incorrect arguments. There are a plethora of good magazines and papers on every topic. From Foreign Affairs to PC Magazine, there is something for everyone and interesting articles a plenty.

There are also plenty of good documentaries, news hours, and commentary if you wish to find it. Most TV is crap, but if you want high brow you can find it on cable. As well most Cdns i know have never traveled, never worked outside this country and have no experiences outside this country. Are you trying to tell me Cdns are more worldly ? List precise proof and sources, because my life experience in having worked in 15+ countries does not support your view. I know plenty of Americans and Cdns who are worldly, and plenty more on both sides of the border who walk around wearing baseball hats without having a clue of the greater world. You base this statement on the fact that Americans don't know much about Canada. A pity yes, but from their perspective why should they care that much ? Canada is anti-american, left wing and has no military. More trade exists between NY and Chicago, then between the US and Canada.

-'best professors in the world, ' - where, who what are you talking about ? The US University system is without peer in the world but the Ivy League is a Haven for left wing Liberalism. Chomsky, Krugman, Rodrik and others at Harvard are anti-Free Trade and anti-globalisation for eg. The best profs in the world do not necessarily reside in the Ivy League that is for sure, it depends entirely on the subject. The Best business school is Kellogg in Chicago. The best Computer school is Carnegie Mellon in Pittsburgh. The highest ranked schools in many subjects are non Ivy League. There is also a massive gap between their post modern philosophy and realism. Post modernism is a framework that is unequivocally wrong. Many posts on this site identify what is wrong with it - look them up.

-'who has more resources avaliable then the average US agency,' - The Ivy League has more resources than the FBI or CIA ?? This is ridiculous. OK identify the $ please in question and make a list of the schools budget vs. the CIA for eg. They don't come close. Homeland security alone has a budget of $40 BILLION. Harvard does not.

-'who are some of the brightest people in the world, who have been hand picked to lead the world' - So now you admit Bush is bright because he went to Yale ? Or what are you talking about ? Rumsfeld and Cheney are not Ivy schoolers. Rice and Bush are, Powell is not. What are you refering to ?? I know many folks from Harvard that I would not hire - they can't think. I have friends who went to Harvard MBA school and they said they learnt more in undergrad. The name a brain does not make.

Glad in any event that you finally admitted you like Bush.

Thanks for that.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear Mr. Read,

I would be happy to address your points.

With regards to crime rates, I have very limited time to do research regarding stats, especially since this forum, as great as it is, foments nothing. I did a quick google search, and one moron from a website called 'useful idiots' had some opinions on the matter of the US vs whomever, but this is far from credible information. The US Department of Justice had a formidible array of stats, but alas, I have no time for reading all of it. What I could glean is that, the US has a declining reported crime rate, and the UK has a very large crime rate. The US murder rate is far higher on average, but I would be far mor reluctant to state that 'capitalism causes higher homicide rates' than you seem to be about stating 'socialism causes higher petty crime rates'.

Less disposable income, that one is true, but I will say, from experience, that money isn't everything.

One Party Federal State??? That is beacause Liberals and Conservatives are one and the same, once power is achieved. Appease Big Business. All 'democracies' are like that.

Less efficient governance? Amen. Corruption isn't a socialist monoply, though.

Left wing media? A good thing. Becoming more and more 'americanized', though.

Health care? Lots of waste, too much. Not because of equality, though. User fees, however nominal, could go a long way in curing 'hypochondri-itis', though.

Military? While critically under-funded, I would take 100 ill-equipped Canadian men over 500 Americans for fighting abilities and intelligence anyday. We would win by attrition. As long as we weren't on the same side.

[Hugo]

I would take 100 ill-equipped Canadian men over 500 Americans for fighting abilities and intelligence anyday

I wouldn't be so sure. American servicemen are amongst the most highly trained and motivated in the world. If you look at the statistics, you'll find that a large majority of servicemen have a higher education qualification of some kind, and virtually all officers are college or university graduates. American training programmes are top-notch and American servicemen are technically competent, and are taught to be versatile and to take initiative, something which is sorely lacking in other armies (notably those of totalitarian states), and can be seen in the excellence of the American NCO ranks.

Not that Canadian troops are poorly trained or stupid, at all. I think that to say that 1 Canadian solider is worth 5 Americans, though, is absolutely ridiculous.

[Lost in Manitoba]

This is generalization, of course. I would say that Canadian intelligence (because of public education) on average is higher than American intelligence, but.... The Americans have far more economic and technological resources to draw from. So an enlisted high school graduate from Kentucky will get better training with more sophisticated technology than the enlisted high school graduate from Newfoundland. Does this mean that the American is a better soldier? I don't think so. What it means is that he has access to better resources. As to versatillity; Americans are specialists, meaning they are taught(in general) to be terribly efficient at one job or one weapon system. Sure they may have general knowledge of other things, but if there weapon system goes down, there tank busts, or the chain of command is removed (or in other words, if things aren't running smoothly) they are not nearly as well trained as you may think. I have only a limited experience with the Canadian millitary, but seeing that they are underfunded and grossly undermanned, I would think that this would lead to that greater versatillity. From what I've heard, you really have to be a jack-of-all-trades and be motivated just so that things run, not even talking run smoothly. Just my opinion.....