If you had to choose ...

[Hicksey]

I would vote for life, no right to impose death upon others not acting in defense. I'm very comfortable with the pro-life, anti-death penalty approach that I've always stood behind, it seems to be the least hypocritical IMO. I can see why those that support the death penalty do, but I'd prefer not to sink the criminal's level.

Do you think the choice you made would bet a net gain or loss to society as a whole?

After all, there would be considerable uproar if abortion on demand were abolished.

[Figleaf]

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Edited July 18, 2007 by Figleaf

[Figleaf]

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[Figleaf]

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[Hicksey]

Over and over I hear the hypocrisy conplaint when the left and right get to debating about abortion/death penalty. It gets tired. So I thought, lets take the hypocrisy out of the equation which begged the question:

If you HAD to choose life or death, which would you choose?

For the purposes of this thread:

1) A vote for death would be a vote for both abortion on demand and the death penalty.

2) A vote for life would be a vote for an abolition of both abortion on demand and the death penalty.

Your imputation of 'hypocrisy' is mistaken if you attempt to apply it to persons opposed to the death penalty and in favor of abortion choice. Your mistake lies in incorrectly equating fetal life with human life.

I am pro-life. The whole basis for the pro-life movement is that a fetus is a life just the same from conception and every bit as worthy of saving as the person you look at in the mirror every morning.

You may not believe that, but that does not mean others do not. You may think believe that is incorrect, but again others do not.

Please do not attack my question with a subjective comment like that. The accuracy of your assertion is subject to one's beliefs. Try reading the whole thread and understanding the how and why of the question asked.

[Figleaf]

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Edited July 18, 2007 by Figleaf

[Wilber]

I would vote for life, no right to impose death upon others not acting in defense. I'm very comfortable with the pro-life, anti-death penalty approach that I've always stood behind, it seems to be the least hypocritical IMO. I can see why those that support the death penalty do, but I'd prefer not to sink the criminal's level.

Well put, me to. I can't categorically say when a fetus becomes a person but I have no doubt there is a point when it does and that is not when it is born, IMO.

[Hicksey]

Over and over I hear the hypocrisy conplaint when the left and right get to debating about abortion/death penalty. It gets tired. So I thought, lets take the hypocrisy out of the equation which begged the question:

If you HAD to choose life or death, which would you choose?

For the purposes of this thread:

1) A vote for death would be a vote for both abortion on demand and the death penalty.

2) A vote for life would be a vote for an abolition of both abortion on demand and the death penalty.

Your imputation of 'hypocrisy' is mistaken if you attempt to apply it to persons opposed to the death penalty and in favor of abortion choice. Your mistake lies in incorrectly equating fetal life with human life.

I am pro-life. The whole basis for the pro-life movement is that a fetus is a life just the same from conception and every bit as worthy of saving as the person you look at in the mirror every morning.

You may not believe that, but that does not mean others do not. You may think believe that is incorrect, but again others do not.

I am aware of all of that.

Please do not attack my question with a subjective comment like that.

It's not a subjective comment. I am attacking your position with a logical comment. Your proposition was illogical because you built your questionable assumptions into it.

The accuracy of your assertion is subject to one's beliefs. Try reading the whole thread and understanding the how and why of the question asked.

I read and my comment stands. The two oppositions you set are inapt. On the "Life" side, its moral equivalence of all life requires it to answer to the apparent dissonance between 'life' and capital punishment or be hypocritical.

The same is not true of your-so-equitably-named "Death" side where the perception of a distinction between human and fetus means that there is no dissonance between defending one and not the other, and hence no hypocrisy arises on the "Death" side.

I have a question for you figleaf: in life has every problem you ever faced presented two options you were perfectly comfortable with? When they didn't did you throw a fit?

I am starting to regret ever thinking people could open their minds and think outside the box.

I knew that nobody believed part-and-parcel to the concepts. The whole point was to examine your beliefs and then answer the question based on them. It would be when we discussed our motivations for answering as we did that all our different nuances would come to light.

I am amazed that so many people cannot deal with a question unless it begs an answer they have at the ready. Apparently by asking people to consider their beliefs and then answer anyway so we could discuss why we chose as we did is like asking if I could put a bullet in a person's head.

[Hicksey]

Your imputation of 'hypocrisy' is mistaken if you attempt to apply it to persons opposed to the death penalty and in favor of abortion choice. Your mistake lies in incorrectly equating fetal life with human life.

What is a fetus if not a human? Embryo, fetus, baby, toddler, adolescent, teenage, adult, elderly are all descriptions of humans at different stages of their growth cycle.

Just because you refuse to acknowledge an embryo or fetus as a human being, doesn't make it so.

[Figleaf]

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[Figleaf]

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Edited July 18, 2007 by Figleaf

[Hicksey]

I have a question for you figleaf: in life has every problem you ever faced presented two options you were perfectly comfortable with? When they didn't did you throw a fit?

Throw a fit? Who's throwing any fits? Not I, I assure you.

It is not 'life' that is presenting the two options in this case, my friend. It is you, proposing two options which are flawed. You are not 'life', you are a discussion participant, and your propositions are subject to analysis and evaluation.

I am starting to regret ever thinking people could open their minds and think outside the box.

I knew that nobody believed part-and-parcel to the concepts. The whole point was to examine your beliefs and then answer the question based on them.

Indeed? You might better have avoided the baseless and unproductive references to hypocrisy, then.

I am amazed that so many people cannot deal with a question unless it begs an answer they have at the ready.

That was not the problem with your question. The problems with your (loaded) questions have been explained already, above. Please refer.

Apparently the concept has eluded you completely.

All the things you have complained about were by design. You have also been made aware that the question itself and your answer to it weren't of consequence, which was also by design. Instead of sorting though the viewpoints and picking one so we can have a rational discussion, WHERE WE WOULD DISCUSS THE POINTS YOU HAVE MADE because we were here all along to discuss the basis/motivation for our answers, which you have already been made aware was designed to be biased by your personal opinion on the issues at hand.

The whole point of this discussion was to discuss concepts instead of just taking turns regurgitating whatever Google can feed us on each others' viewpoints.

You are doing so well you haven't made it past the question.

At this point if you cannot comprehend how it would be that the question could be asked and answered, and the resulting discussion, I am wasting my time typing.

[Hicksey]

Your imputation of 'hypocrisy' is mistaken if you attempt to apply it to persons opposed to the death penalty and in favor of abortion choice. Your mistake lies in incorrectly equating fetal life with human life.

What is a fetus if not a human?

What is a fetus? Well, it's a .... FETUS, I suppose.

Embryo, fetus, baby, toddler, adolescent, teenage, adult, elderly are all descriptions of humans at different stages of their growth cycle.

Okay, if you like. And each stage is characterized by a physical reality with attendant social status -- personhood being confered at birth.

So, if you cannot see it it does not exist? Now there's "rational grounds" if I have ever seen it.

Just because you refuse to acknowledge an embryo or fetus as a human being, doesn't make it so.

It don't merely refuse to acknowledge it -- I have rejected it on rational grounds.

So there's absolutely nothing of value inside a mother other than her usual bodily organs during pregnancy? So if someone assaulted your pregnant wife and it resulted in a miscarriage or stillborn child, you would be angry at the assault but feel no loss otherwise? After all, there's not a human being in there.

[Figleaf]

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Edited July 18, 2007 by Figleaf

[Riverwind]

So there's absolutely nothing of value inside a mother other than her usual bodily organs during pregnancy? So if someone assaulted your pregnant wife and it resulted in a miscarriage or stillborn child, you would be angry at the assault but feel no loss otherwise? After all, there's not a human being in there.

A fetus is future human being. It is perfectly reasonable to be upset about the lose of the future human without believing the fetus itself is human.

The decision about when a fetus becomes human is a moral and religious choice. There is no 'right' answer.

[Hicksey]

All of the pro-life people I know allow for those exceptions, but not for that reason. We believe that people who did not consent to the action that caused the pregnancy, should not have to be held to account for actions under which they did not portake in voluntarily.

You do not know ALL of the pro-life people.

I am anti-abortion even in the case of rape and incest and all other violations. I am also completely against the death penalty in all cases. Why? because, unlike all of the pro-life-exceptionists that you know, I truly do believe life is sacred. Period.

Does that make me left or right? (I know, I know, I can hear it already.... that just means I am looney....)

It helps to read a post before responding to it. Where did I claim to know all pro-life people?

And for the record, us "pro-life-exceptionists" do value all life. We regret any loss, we just tolerate it in these two situations because we feel pity for the unwillingly afflicted. I prefer that no life be ended -- but if anyone must be aborted -- I would prefer to spare the child and abort the incestous parent or rapist.

[Charles Anthony]

It helps to read a post before responding to it.

Not a bad idea.

By the way, am I left or right, according to you?

[JerrySeinfeld]

pro choice pro death penalty

[Hicksey]

It helps to read a post before responding to it.

Not a bad idea.

By the way, am I left or right, according to you?

I'm not really concerned about that.

I wasn't looking to label anyone. The point was to just discuss our beliefs.

I've given up on that. Nobody can get past the question.