There is no where else on earth that you get as much stupidity in one

[watching&waiting]

I have been fighting with Revenue Canada for over 5 years and finally I figured I would just give up and declare personal bankruptcy, and then I get even more crap from them in the form of a Net Worth audit, that is just so stupid it is not funny. Now I will fight it again but this time I will have to do so without a lawyer, as I spennt $46,000.00 on the last one and it was going to cost me $40,000 more to keep going.

I will admit to being one of the many satellite pirates that were around when DTV was a grey thing here in Canada. I also made a living off this but no where near what Rev Canada thinks. Hence the problem. I was raided by the RCMP and charged under the Radio Communications act. They seized everythin g I had that day with me including the wifes car. Any way to make a long story short I figured that this was a good thing as now since I could show the number of people I was taking care of times the amount per year I charged, and then they could see what I reported was true. Or so I thought, It just came down to not being able to afford lawyters any more so I took a lea on the charges and I have a $20,000.00 fine and 18 month probation. I figured since this was all against me only that I would just declare bankruptcy and end it there. But the RCMP I guess mad that they could not get a criminal charge then asked that Rev Can do an net worth audit. It is reall stupid and the errors are really crazy, but if they are anything like the last auditors they will just look like they do not understand and waste time. I really wanted to fight all this but as I said I can not afford the lawyers anymore and I am on a disability pension for stress and depression etc.

The thing I do not understand is the stats say that Rev Can loses 98% of all cases going to court, then why are we allowing them to keep do this. I knwo that most people do just go bankrupt and end it, but that is like letting them get you even thought you know you are in the right. I must admit that declaring bankruptcy will not really harm me and may even help my depression and stress problems. The problem is though even though I paid my fair share of taxes and I have always made all payments on time, I will have to just say screw it and file. These guys do this on purpose and they have always made sure they snd you papers for stupid things on your birthday and the Christmas holidays. They say they do not but since they have every year for 5 years, I say BS to them.

Any way now that I git that off my chest, my question for all of you here. What do you think about the powers that these guys have and the fact that you are guitly until proven innocent. My wife and I used to have a disposible income of $60,000.00 each year but now that has dropped because I am on my pension etc to approx $48,000 per year. The home was in my wifes name a decade before we were married and they can not touch either way. But when is it enough and where does it need to stop. I and told by the tax lawyers that most cases that go to court run the person $60,000 to $75,000 to do so. How many of you can afford to do that? I would like to know if anybody has found a way that would be cheaper, and if so what was it.

[jbg]

Does anyone think the US's IRS is any better?

[Who's Doing What?]

I have been fighting with Revenue Canada for over 5 years and finally I figured I would just give up and declare personal bankruptcy, and then I get even more crap from them in the form of a Net Worth audit, that is just so stupid it is not funny. Now I will fight it again but this time I will have to do so without a lawyer, as I spennt $46,000.00 on the last one and it was going to cost me $40,000 more to keep going.

I will admit to being one of the many satellite pirates that were around when DTV was a grey thing here in Canada. I also made a living off this but no where near what Rev Canada thinks. Hence the problem. I was raided by the RCMP and charged under the Radio Communications act. They seized everythin g I had that day with me including the wifes car. Any way to make a long story short I figured that this was a good thing as now since I could show the number of people I was taking care of times the amount per year I charged, and then they could see what I reported was true. Or so I thought, It just came down to not being able to afford lawyters any more so I took a lea on the charges and I have a $20,000.00 fine and 18 month probation. I figured since this was all against me only that I would just declare bankruptcy and end it there. But the RCMP I guess mad that they could not get a criminal charge then asked that Rev Can do an net worth audit. It is reall stupid and the errors are really crazy, but if they are anything like the last auditors they will just look like they do not understand and waste time. I really wanted to fight all this but as I said I can not afford the lawyers anymore and I am on a disability pension for stress and depression etc.

The thing I do not understand is the stats say that Rev Can loses 98% of all cases going to court, then why are we allowing them to keep do this. I knwo that most people do just go bankrupt and end it, but that is like letting them get you even thought you know you are in the right. I must admit that declaring bankruptcy will not really harm me and may even help my depression and stress problems. The problem is though even though I paid my fair share of taxes and I have always made all payments on time, I will have to just say screw it and file. These guys do this on purpose and they have always made sure they snd you papers for stupid things on your birthday and the Christmas holidays. They say they do not but since they have every year for 5 years, I say BS to them.

Any way now that I git that off my chest, my question for all of you here. What do you think about the powers that these guys have and the fact that you are guitly until proven innocent. My wife and I used to have a disposible income of $60,000.00 each year but now that has dropped because I am on my pension etc to approx $48,000 per year. The home was in my wifes name a decade before we were married and they can not touch either way. But when is it enough and where does it need to stop. I and told by the tax lawyers that most cases that go to court run the person $60,000 to $75,000 to do so. How many of you can afford to do that? I would like to know if anybody has found a way that would be cheaper, and if so what was it.

I have had to pay interest, too Rev. Can, on money they were never even owed. Even though I provided proof I owed them nothing and they agreed, I was still charged the accrued interest.

[jdobbin]

Any way now that I git that off my chest, my question for all of you here. What do you think about the powers that these guys have and the fact that you are guitly until proven innocent. My wife and I used to have a disposible income of $60,000.00 each year but now that has dropped because I am on my pension etc to approx $48,000 per year. The home was in my wifes name a decade before we were married and they can not touch either way. But when is it enough and where does it need to stop. I and told by the tax lawyers that most cases that go to court run the person $60,000 to $75,000 to do so. How many of you can afford to do that? I would like to know if anybody has found a way that would be cheaper, and if so what was it.

Sorry about your troubles. I don't know any way cheaper than having a lawyer. Kind of ironic that you can win your case but lose all your money.

Also, ironic that I know when driving in some areas near my house known for having lots of RCMP and other police, you can see lots of DirectTV satellte dishes.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

I have a friend that was at one time in management as I was at one time. He went back to the union and began working for a living, as I did. The nature of his job at the time was such that he was allowed certain deductions for meal expenses. He claimed these deductions on his taxes. This was a cahnge of status for him in Revenue Canada's eyes so they audited him. It seems that he ended up owing them some money, so he paid what was owed and got a better accountant. The next year he made his claims again and got audited again and had to pay them more money. So much for that acountant, he fired him too. The next year his brother in law had some trouble in another province, so my friend helped him out in a business deal. The deal was undertaken in his name to avoid issues with his brother in laws ex-wife. There ended up being some tax issues with GST owed and he got wacked with the tab. They audited him again, and he again owed them money. This time the accountant didn't get fired, but he still had to pay. The point is, these fellas at Rev. Canada have long arms and an entire court system to back them up. Maybe they don't always win, but it will cost money to the citizen anyway.

[geoffrey]

I really struggle to sympathise with someone that played so recklessly with the law. When you made the choice to deal in illegal trade (it wasn't as grey as you suggest), you accepted the consequences of the actions when you got caught.

A net worth audit is a reasonable step in ensuring that the public receives it's taxable compensation from your earnings throughout that time period, as your personal revenue is uncredible because, well, your a criminal.

That being said, no one should profit off criminal action, and I believe that includes the government. Any revenues that you made should be completely returned in full to DTV, that's all revenues.

--

And for the rest of you that complain about your tax obligations, hey, I don't like the rates that we get taxed at either. But you all know how much you are going to pay, and especially if your in business, hire a competent accountant. And don't complain when you realise that you didn't pay enough last year, it's the way business works, you do have obligations.

An audit is very painless if you've maintained proper records and control in your business.

[watching&waiting]

Just to clarify some things here. I have been involved with satellite dishes since early 1980's and have over the years had One Prime Minister, Speaker of the house, one Supreme Court justice, and many police officers as customers. It was only when Bell and the Cable companies decidecd they wanted an monopoly that there were any efforts to make a different interpetation of the law. Even now that Law even after ruled on said there could be an issue with the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Because to present interpetation say that it is more likely then not that the drafters ment it to be all encompassing, and because it is civil you find people taking plead bargains. They can never win a criminal case on it as the wording would have to stand and then there would be once again free and open skies. But much to my chagrin I found out that a Charter Challenge such as this would ost $250,000 for all levels of courts. So now you know why the area is still grey. The RCMP will nevefr allow it to go Criminal and Civil plea is the cheapest way out.

Nowon to your other thing about the taxes. The RCMP had proof of exactly what I made and I paid tax on all of it. So they just decided that my books must be wromng and I made $2,000,000.00 more then said.After five years if complete idiots at Rev Can we were talking less then $200,000.00 and even that was off by atleast $180,000.00. So we were going to go to court or so I thought as we had a winning case, but lawyers wanted anoter $40,000.00 more then the $46,000.00 I already paid them. That is why I dropped it and decided to go bankruptcy. It has nothing to do with proceeds of a crime as this is a summary conviction, and not criminal. Even though it is against the law for the RCMP to give evidence to Rev Can, especially evidence that is still before the courts, they did. Their answer to this so what, you got the money to sue us for it? Maybe now you will start to see when RCMP officer are killed in the line of duty, I quietly smile. I know I should not but as far as I am concerned there are paid to be there in the front lines and so it should not be a big things when that costs some lives. As I said I have been sought concselling to help me with that and also the feeling that Rev Can is going too far.

I will await Tommorrow where I will call the person from this net worth audit, and explain quite quickly that he has taken numbers out of context and if he uses the right ones all adds up to be within One hundred dollars in my favour. But I know this game and there will be one year of arguing at this level, then one year arguing at the next level, then a third year arguing at a third level, and then 3-4 years to get to court. The arguments will be over what it costs the wife and I to live. We have no mortgage and can show that all bills with utilities, food, gas etc Comes to $17,000 per year. We have copies of bank records for all the years. They said in the net worth that it comes to $48,000 per year. The funny thing is both my wife and I do not drink or smoke and he has $2400.00 for alchol and tobacco. This is the stupidness of it all, and it was all done because we built a building on our farm that cost $138,000.00, and we paid for it as we went along the 5 years where there is a $31,000.00 difference makes $155,000.00. As I said I have been here before, if you think this would be straight it is not. Rev Can does not do math as 1+1=2, They say if you had one you must have hidden 4 and that next one must have hidden 16 as you got better at it so their way is 1+ 1 =20 and it is up to you to show how we are wrong, but do not do math to do so.

Also to address the money and DTV etc, you say that the money should go to them, but they do not have the right to sell here in Canada, therefore they has suffered zero loss. They also did take many Canadian customers subscription thru credit cards knowing full well they should not and they never gave back any GST and PST, so they are actually the crooks here.

As far as an audit being painless with books goes, that is crap. I should have listened to people before about audits and just ingore everything and let them come up with the fiction. I am off on a disability pension for stress and depression. I believe it comes from my forcing myself from just grabbing the auditor and ....

That is why they always have two in the room at all times. So that all being said I will get my meds adjusted by my doctor and once again go and try to teach math to Rev Can.

Oh yes I want to thank you all for allowing this thread, as it does help to relieve some of the tension just typing it but it get hard on the keyboard.

[geoffrey]

You should have to pay the entire earnings from your illegal operations to DTV in my opinion, that's the moral outcome. You stole from them, you need to pay them back.

The tax people, while legally justified, are somewhat morally in a pickle. They are taking what's essientially dirty money.

[Riverwind]

You should have to pay the entire earnings from your illegal operations to DTV in my opinion, that's the moral outcome. You stole from them, you need to pay them back.

I remember being told that even a drug dealer is legally required to report his income to revenue Canada. Furthermore, the tax law is written in a way that reporting income made from illegal activities cannot be be used against some in court. It sound strange but it basically eliminates any excuse for not reporting income.

[geoffrey]

You should have to pay the entire earnings from your illegal operations to DTV in my opinion, that's the moral outcome. You stole from them, you need to pay them back.

I remember being told that even a drug dealer is legally required to report his income to revenue Canada. Furthermore, the tax law is written in a way that reporting income made from illegal activities cannot be be used against some in court. It sound strange but it basically eliminates any excuse for not reporting income.

I'm not comfortable with a government funded on dirty money. Is our government not then just a big racketeering organization? If I accept money from them, for say, health care, am I technically breaking the law?

[Riverwind]

I'm not comfortable with a government funded on dirty money. Is our government not then just a big racketeering organization? If I accept money from them, for say, health care, am I technically breaking the law?

I am pretty sure that no drug dealer will ever report the income on his tax return. The is written the way it is to eliminate potential loop holes - not make money from illegal activities.

[watching&waiting]

You should have to pay the entire earnings from your illegal operations to DTV in my opinion, that's the moral outcome. You stole from them, you need to pay them back.

The tax people, while legally justified, are somewhat morally in a pickle. They are taking what's essientially dirty money.

You do not understand this very well, so let me explain it for you. DTV has no rights to their signal here and by law it is abandoned by them as they would need a braodcasting license to send it here. There is not theft for picking something out of the skies that has no legal right to be there. DTV if it wished could footprint their signal so as not to encroat on Canadian lands, butthat is expensive but do able. They choose not to. Also they chose to use a encryption system that was to say the least cheesy and easily broken. They could have gone to the higher encryption cards and not have had this problem. So while I can see your position about the law is the law and payback etc. You need to also understand that if it was not for the money and loobbying of the Bell and cable companies the law under which they charge people would not have that interpetation. You must remeber up until April 2002 18 judges had ruled all this was perfectly legal, and even with the April 2002 ruling it said their could well be an issue of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Since then everyone who has tried to go that route has found costs run up by Bell and Cable have caused all cases to settle before they could be ruled. That means that you need to beat the big guys at this.

There used to be a ruling by the Supreme Court of Canada that anything that arrived on your property without your permission or consent, was yours to do with as you wished, and that included TV and Radio signals. Since these are bombarding us every day, do you think that if we should they are a health hazzrd that the companies will step forward and pay our health bills? They will simple say that it is not their signals as they only broadcast to the USA.

So to make a long story even longer, while I can and will respect you view that you believe it is theft, I again will point out this is much like the baker trying to charge for the smell of his products. Even though they give pleasure and a feeling of wellness to all who breath them in. Also if DTV wanted to come after me they have that right, but as I said I will declare personal bankruptcy within the next couple months and what the hell, I may well name them, just to put that to rest also. In the 25 years I was in satellite I would say that less then 30 % of my income was from the so called piracy. I also paid taxes on each and every dollar I made whether it was from piracy or from other sources. That I guess is why I am here in this as I was running a legal business until Bell and Cable dedided they wanted the whole ball game. I am not ashamed for what I did and as I said I had many a well known person as customers. The ruling as of april 27 2002 was very suspicious and yes over turned 18 other judges, but I repeat it left open the door of a harter issue as said by the Supreme Court Justices, but Bell and Cable will never allow anyone to take that road to its natural fruition.

[geoffrey]

I'd be with ya if you stole the DTV for yourself, but the fact that you charged a fee to someone else clearly illustrates you were in the wrong. That just means you were selling the illegal signal in Canada.

White collar crime isn't as reprehensible as violent crime or anything like that, I don't put you in that category, definitely not a sociopath or anything. But when you play that game, you know the consequences (like in all business)... the rewards are higher and tax free, the risks are financial ruin or imprisionment. You knew this, and you should live up to the consequences.

[Charles Anthony]

The tax people, while legally justified, are somewhat morally in a pickle. They are taking what's essientially dirty money.

Oh, the tables of taxation have turned!

I'm not comfortable with a government funded on dirty money. Is our government not then just a big racketeering organization? If I accept money from them, for say, health care, am I technically breaking the law?

Technically, I would expect the government to have a personal tax exemption from "the law" but you are still benefiting from the proceeds of crime.

while I can and will respect you view that you believe it is theft, I again will point out this is much like the baker trying to charge for the smell of his products. Even though they give pleasure and a feeling of wellness to all who breath them in.

I agree with that. However, the nature in which you sold the signal makes it slightly more complicated and hard to beat. It sounds like you breached a contract or committed fraud.

Inherent in the encrytion of the signal is a EULA of sorts. By decrypting it, you explicitly agree to the terms of the DTV company.

There are two possibilities, I am not clear how you sold it precisely.

1) if you told customers "This is a pirated and illegal signal that I am selling." and the customers agreed, both of you broke the DTV contract.

2) if you made the customers believe it was a legitimate signal, you committed fraud and you should expect the DTV company AND the customers (if they wanted) to claim damages as previously suggested in the post.

You should have to pay the entire earnings from your illegal operations to DTV in my opinion, that's the moral outcome.