Passport And Biometrics Soon Mandatory

[Craig Read]

US officials are informing Ottawa - that great bastion of post modern complexity - that a simple passport with biometric data will be necessary to cross into the US.

Message:

"Your borders are porous, you have no security, either you comply with this, or we will take other measures to control our frontiers"

So Canada needs the US to reform its security and borders ?

Excellent.

[Greg]

I'm particularly interested in this issue, so you'll have to excuse me for interjecting,

Craig, where is the justification for requiring Canadians to carry a passport to enter the United States? Where is the evidence that Canadians travelling across the border are a significant security risk?

These types of security measures, in my opinion, do very little in the way of stopping crime/terrorism etc. Why? Because all the money that is going to be spent on inconveniencing your average traveller could be better spent monitoring the 99.9% of the border that isn't guarded with custom agents. Drive two minutes right or left of almost any rural border crossing and you won't likely find a place to swipe your biometric card.

Congress (and in many cases the Canadian Parliament) always seem to propose out-dated methods that sound great around the committee table but horrible in the field. Perhaps no one bother to mention how expensive these types of security measures are to build and maintain. Also, I'm puzzled that they would propose a solution that requires a biometric card that doesn't even exist. A passport with biometric capabilities?

Also, call me paranoid but I won't be traveling to the United States if they require any part of me to be scanned. I don't personally trust MY government with that information let along a foreign state.

Sounds to me like knee-jerk reaction.

[SirRiff]

when i debated the pros of genetically modified food once i put up some stats from the US dept of transportation citing something like 40,000 deaths on US highways every year.

if they really wanted to become safer immediately, they could save thousands a year on the roads.

i think its a bit nuts to think that a young arab male would try to get by with a forged passport of anykind considering the scrutiny that they would get. most likely any potential terorists would get all the papers legit and just blend into the mass of travel in and out of north america. there is no need to forge identitys when its impossible to track perfectly legit ones right now.

the biometrics will be of great help for your run of the mill morons who used to photocopy picture and stuff, but international terrorists are not stupid enough to take on the security system head on.

and as greg said i think its misplaced. i think its comforting to americans to think its all Canadas and mexicos fault for lax security, when in fact the modern complexity of globla travel makes it impossible for any nation to both interact with teh world convienently and be 100% secure.

nobody has ever launched an attack from canada.

but any technology upgrade we get from this should benefit us in the long run.

SirRiff

[FastNed]

Greg, many things have been put in place to attempt to supervise the unguarded areas of our common border. They range from the simplistic, such as rewards to locals for tips on 'odd' activity to the complex, such as allowing cigarette smugglers a free 'pass' for informing on people who wish to be transported with 'untaxed' goods. Plus there is technology which is a different bag of tricks. Bottom line, anyone attempting a non-traditional crossing point is at great risk.

The only safe passage is to hide in plain sight among the rest of the traffic. It seems that the people of interest in this area change identities the way the rest of us change socks with a half dozen ID's and as many different drivers licenses. The Passport business is an attempt to make that more complex and slow them down. While there are many places around the World where you can buy a valid Third World Passport, each additional level of complexity reduces the number of sales outlets.

I do not have the cite but there is some sort of International Passport agreement which calls for such Passports by the end of 04 or 05 - it's been a while since I read the article and I don't remember the effective dates. What America is attempting is to advance the timetable requiring such passports for those who wish to enter America.

While America has never required a fingerprint in its passports, it's common in a number of other Nations. I believe the combination of a picture and a thumbprint qualify as a biometric document. That, together with a machine readable printing format and encoded info will enable real-time verification of legitimacy. As to your body being scanned, I believe that should a question exist you would be asked to place your thumb against a piece of glass to verify the fingerprint. Not too invasive.

In practice, I suspect it's going to be like travel to many areas of the Caribbean - no passport is mandatory but if a question comes up, that passport is a 'get in free' card.

The wisdom of it all can be argued but two thoughts for you: first, as so many Canadians love to point out, Canada isn't America. Because that is so, those who wish to enter as a guest must follow the rules of the host. Second, to the point - since Canada insists (as is its right) on admitting Taliban and other Islamics who are declared enemies of America, then Canadians must bear the burden of protective measures adopted by America in response to your immigration policies.

[Lost in Manitoba]

Fingerprints are intrusive. I would guess they would have to be stored in a Gov't database because no matter what, information on a card can be altered. So here's a huge database waiting to be abused. I leave prints everywhere (resteraunts, bathrooms, doorknobs), so what's to prevent the MAN from taking those prints in an unauthorized or secret fashion? Forget that. There are better ways that are harder to abuse.

Greg says he will not travel stateside if a passport is required. I, on the other hand, will probably renounce my American citizenship. I want nothing to do with Orwell's Big Brother. Never did like that guy.

[FastNed]

Lost, as I said in my reply to Greg, it's been quite some time since I read about this and I do not have the cite but much of this Passport business is to force Governments to update their Data Banks quicker - worst offender a while back was the Dutch, as I remember it. They were several years behind in posting listings of lost or stolden Passports.

Most of this is transparent to the individual who isn't aware that the Passport "Bar Code" is swiped as it is being examined. If you have "Wants and Warrants", a criminal record or a number of other "issues" both Customs Canada and US Customs get a quick response from their integrated data base and you go "Tilt"! This is not Total Informational Awareness or anything near that.

There are some measures taken when your passport is issued, call them checks and balances, of which you will never be aware and I will not spread that type of information on a public forum but much of what is being proposed is simply to get Government Data Sytems up to speed. They are a dozen years behind and the best these measures will do is to bring them to within a generation of our latest computers.

A single thumbprint can be laser inscribed into a passport upon issuance which is a great deal more secure than a paste on photo. Much of what is proposed are actions of this nature - steps which add to the complexity of falsifying a document and/or which make it easier to spot an alteration.

[Craig Read]

Biometrics and ID cards are now necessary.

Documents, IDs, passports and the like are all easily forged.

You can't forge biometric data.

In a world where a transparent border with the US is vital for Canadian interests we should be pursuing this with more vigor.

Yes there are cells in Canada intent on harming our civilisiation, people abuse the immigration system and numerous plots to blow up various points here and in the US have been uncovered.

Time to grow up and pursue security measures with the US.

[Luigi71585]

As an American citizen, probably the last worry i have is a radical group of Canadians crossing the border. No offense. I think a boimetrics defense shield would be better suited for travelers from eurasia. I love Canadians! I do think the biometrics can be of some use, but not until the technology if further developed and can be spread to places of departure so we dont have a net of paranoia within the country.

Regardless, i dont feel this is intrusive to us Americans. They dont require our genetic data to stay here. Its no problem for us yet. I would like to stay as far away from the mark of the beast as i can though.

As an american im not impeaded any, so my sentiments are drastically less important than yours. I dont have major saftey fears because i know that were protected as well as we can be, but i severly doubt the threat is from our friendly neighbors up north.

[FastNed]

Luigi, you would not be quite so assured were you to do some research on Canadian Immigration practices. Taliban, Arab terrorist, etal are all welcome under the present Canadian Governments "Multicultural" policies.

Damn near every terrorist group in the world has found refuge in Canada due to an idiotic "catch & release" policy. If they get their feet on the ground within Canada, they claim refuge and the Canadian response is to register them, release them with the address of the Welfare Office and they are home free.

I kid you not!

[Luigi71585]

Wow, i have actually been informed. Thank you fastned. See this is why i love forums.

So when was this catch and release program implicated?What exactly are the restrictions and such? Why was it implicated?

Is it a diversity thing? Is Canada reacghing out to those that the US is currently too afraid to accept?

Thanks again

[Greg]

Taliban, Arab terrorist, etal are all welcome under the present Canadian Governments "Multicultural" policies.

Damn near every terrorist group in the world has found refuge in Canada due to an idiotic "catch & release" policy. If they get their feet on the ground within Canada, they claim refuge and the Canadian response is to register them, release them with the address of the Welfare Office and they are home free.

Fastned, I'm curious, where's your evidence of this? And avoid citing anything that involves the words Helms-Burton.

[FastNed]

Hi Luigi & Greg

My post represents 'gleanings' from several years of reading as well as the Canadian Government policy regarding refugees who claim to be fleeing from persecution. They are registered and then released into the general population pending a future hearing - thus my categorization "a catch and release program".

I'm in the midst of a 'cash' project with a deadline of the 26th Sept. and until I complete that, don't have a great deal of time for involved research.

Give it ten or twelve days and I'll have a properly researched and cited answer posted.

[Luigi71585]

I still am a little foggy on this in general. Youre actually telling me that people who are tagged as associated with a terrorist group are not only allowed to roam freely in Canada, but

are all welcome under the present Canadian Governments "Multicultural" policies

. This doesnt make sense. Maybe Im blinded because im from a country that was sneak attacked by a cowardous group of extremists, but this seems illogical to me.

These taliban terrorists are seemingly harbored in Canada if the policy is acceptance and mild monitoring. I am concerned more so about Canada than I am an Iraqi extremist.

Can anyone support/deny FastNeds post?

Id like another opinion if you dont mind.

Please help the pitiful American

[FastNed]

Luigi, you're a big boy, start to do your own research - to get you started, go HERE for a Parliamentary Research Report & Overview on Canada Immigration.

2- Google Canada Immigration Refugee

3- Do a search within the above google for any terrorist group name you can think of - it will be educational, I promise.

The basic scam is this: You arrive at a Canadian Entry Point with "Clean" ID. You request admission as a Refugee from Afghanistan as a religious refugee - you are a religious taliban persecuted by the Afghan Government and their American Overlords. They have 72 hours to justify your exclusion; if they can't justify exclusion, you are released into the general populace with a hearing in about 12 months!

You can immediately get employment!

You are entitled to the great free Canadian Health Care!

I'm told you can get welfare but haven't researched it yet

or, you can disappear, get more false ID and live happy ever after. Or you can join your terrorist buddies and plan a cross-border terrorist act.

[Luigi71585]

Personal research shouldnt be necessary if a point is backed by logical proof instead of supossed personal opinion. Do appreciate the link. Thats the type of thing this site needs more of. This sentiment is backed by Greg who has asked for source citing.

The only thing im missing in your research and my own is the proof that there is significant risk. I have done my own research and have yet to find anything signifying that there is risk from canada.

I did however find that the real reason behind the biometrics decision was that the border security is too high. It is being implimented to help speed the Canadian/US traveler move back and forth between the 2 countries. In reality its not to increase our defenses, its to decrease the basic struggles of "safe" travelers. Its secondary feature is less exciting. Its for the security of goods. I think the simple fact thats its biometrics is causing it too be overglamourized.

Prove me wrong.

Source

[Craig Read]

Under the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, better known as the Chatter of the Righteous and the Fraudalent -- a refugee anywhere in the world can claim asylum by simply walking on Canadian soil without papers. They are immediately given 'relief', food and shelter and so on.

A convicted felon, who has lied to get into Canada cannot be deported without a long legal process.

A terrorist or previously indicted criminal cannot be deported without a long legal process.

A person who boards a plane, lands in Canada and who mysteriously on the plane ride over has lost his documents is treated as a refugee.

The immigration business is huge, these lawyers support the Liberals by and large, and donations and certain ridings are dependent upon immigration. This is why the Lie-berals want more more more more more immigration. Preferably from India, Muslim Near East and South America. These immigrants almost to a man vote Lie-beral.

The 'Tribunal' that assesses refugee claims, deportations and immigrant assessments are composed of patronage appointees and are not professionals in their line of work. As one tired Tribunal officer stated - all the stories sound the same. Apparently the terrorists, immigrants and refugees have a playbook they follow and have standard lines they use to appease the Tribunal.

Sources; recent books on Immigration by Stoffman and Francis. They go into detail on all of these points. I have already posted on another thread the importance in reading these 2 books on the Immigration scam.

[FastNed]

Hello Luigi, as soon as I can get to it, I'll add information in support of my posting.

I have no interest in proving you either right or wrong. Your focus is different than mine. I will note in passing, however, that the more people who can be placed on a "safe" list the more attention can be focused on potential security problems.

Ensuring the validity of documentation is not a bureaucratic process designed to allow the "State" additional control of its citizen and residents but rather is a tool to identify those who are outlaws in our midst.

[Luigi71585]

Hey FastNed. Hows it going. Haha. I will appreciate the future documentation, because the focus on Canadian security is relatively non-existent in the US. I havent heard a single fear expressed by any American, probably due to out lack of knowledge about such things. I dont doubt Canadas needs for safety within its own borders. The thing Im looking for is how it affects me here in the states and i dont believe that biometrics or canadian refugees are a fear. If they pass your inspection, im sure theyll pass ours.

Also, im not saying you want to prove me wrong. Sorry, didnt mean it to come accross like that. What i mean is that i WANT to be proved wrong. I am the type that is interested in the things my government isnt telling me. Not to sound paranoid, but theres always more going on than what they make known. This is my odyssean quest so to speak. Any intelligent source on the "inside" such as yourself is the type of thing im looking for. I can say that because i appreciate you, nova and craigs postings most of all. They give me the insight i need to prove things here in real life.

[Moderate Centrist]

Craig,

As usual your views on this topic are ridiculous nonsense. The whole identity card issue is a crock of s^&%!

The only reason to implement it in Canada is to appease the Americans.

Biometric cards serve no useful purpose except to fool the public into thinking the government is taking strong action against terrorism?

We’ve already spent a Billion dollars on a useless gun registry (I’m not a gun owner). Now we’re supposed to pay more money into another database. Ha Ha Ha.

Conservatives can not call for smaller government on the one hand and more police power on the other.

Looking at the history books more laws and police power have done little to stop crime and lots to harass and annoy the public.

The terrorist threat has been completely blown out of proportion and is being used to scare the public.

The US has one of the most porous borders in the world so where to they get off criticizing Canada. Not one of the 9/11 attackers came from here. Criticism should be pointed at the US itself, Britain, Saudi Arabia and Pakistan – that’s where the terrorists have come from.

My views on law enforcement and fighting terrorism are very simple – if you want to catch terrorists – great! If you want to stop crime – Great! But as far as I’m concerned stay out of my face and don’t go harassing innocent citizens.

[Craig Read]

Immoderate socialist is back.

That a boy.

So how do you define citizens rights ? How about when ID cards are fake and stolen ? How about when IM forms for immigration are fake and stolen ? How about when the Chinese developer who works for me gives his driver's license to his friends to copy and gets his driver's ed teacher to certify his friend ? [this is true he does this] How about when terrorists using fake names from xxxia or xxxstan use the social services system to survive while they plan to blow up targets [Ressam] ?

It is about security.

And like most socialists you don't read or refute.

There are numerous points as to why ID cards are necessary.

In fact you have one it is called the SIN card. So you better go hand it back in.......since you don't want it.

That a boy immoderate socialist, have to love your logic or er lack of it.

[Hugo]

To me, the issue is not about privacy. As Craig has said, your personal information is already on hundreds of databases. Why do you think stores have loyalty cards - they feel like giving free gifts? No, it's so they can monitor your spending habits and send you junk mail, spam and so forth according to those habits.

The problem is who's doing it. Let's face it, the government of Canada is as incompetent as it is stupid, and if anyone could screw up this ID card it would be them. I read that since the gun registry became active, it has been hacked 20 times already, and it hasn't even been up that long. Clearly they aren't particularly security-savvy.

Furthermore, I'm not even so sure this will vastly increase security anyway. Passports are supposed to be highly secure documents and how many fakes are there floating around? If it can be made, it can be forged.

[Moderate Centrist]

Hello Hugo,

Hello and Thank-you re: "if it can be made it can be forged".

Exactly right. The National Identity card is a do nothing approach to nothing. There is no reason to have it and no evidence that it will improve security in any way, shape or form.

The only practical purpose I can see is to create jobs for unemployed IT professionals.

As for immigrants Craig - my thoughts are simple-

Do what you have to but don't come knocking on my door. There is no reason I should be inconvenienced or have to pay money into some stupid dbase.

It is not for me to buy into National ID cards but for you to prove they are required. You haven't done so.

[Hugo]

The cost will be prohibitive, I'm sure. There are around 7 million gun owners in Canada, and a simple registry programme costs over $1bn, apparently. A biometric ID card will be much more complex to produce and implement - let's assume, for argument's sake, it'll be about 1.5x as expensive as the gun registry, and I'm probably being kind. That's $1.5bn. Multiply by 4, for the 28 million Canadians that will need a card, and you get $6bn.

$6bn would buy you a lot of border guards, helicopters, patrols, customs agents, and so forth. Is the biometric ID card really going to increase security more than a $6bn shot in the arm for the customs and security agencies?

[Craig Read]

Mod, come on, national security and the border and trade are at risk. Today in the Post 4 groups are listed by CSIS as active terrorist fundraisers and only ONE is blacklisted by the gov't.

The reason is simple - these groups provide money to the Liberals, their supporters, lawyers and the entire immigration edifice.

It is a national crime that terrorist groups operate here free to raise money and raise converts to their cause.

Our national security is pathetically inept and our borders loose.

A biometric card cannot be forged and is now mandatory to stop illegal use of our system and country's resources as well as allow the border to stay open. As I argued elsewhere this card is not the only or even the most important aspect of national security.

But what it forces is the complete reform of the entire immigration system, the way people are processed, the background checks, the sponsorships, and where people are once they enter the country.

Either we do it or the Americans will do it for us.

[Hugo]

A biometric card cannot be forged

What if I turn up at the office with a birth certificate, drivers license, passport and SIN card all saying my name is Craig Read and I'd like to get my biometric card, please?

I'll have a card with biometrics that will match mine, but a false name, false DOB, false citizenship, false address... a forgery.

I'm sorry, Craig, I do agree completely that border security needs beefing up, but I think that the biometric card will do for security what the gun registry will do for gun crime: nothing, except waste money that could have gone to customs and security, or raising police funding.