China domestic animals are raised to be killed for their fur

[Riverwind]

Sorry there is no such message popping up when you "google" in China, google lies - its all about them collecting huge amounts of data on their users that they can sell to the highest bidder - Google is a public company and like all big companies profit is the bottom line ........

Google's quest for data is no big secret - Google does not deny it does this and unlike many other internet companies is extremely up front when it comes to disclosing when it is capturing information. In other words, Google would not need to lie about Chinese gov't censorship in order to cover up data collection policies that everybody already knows about.

So do you have a better explaination for why Google would claim censorship if there is none?

[Kindred]

Can you give me an explaination for the porn side bar? Do we assume there is an explaination for the things big companies like Google do?

[Riverwind]

In fact, I routinely access sites that criticize the government, e.g., Amnesty International.

So why does Amnesty International have a press release claiming the Chinese gov't censors websites?

http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGASA170022006

Are you saying they are lying too?

BTW - China is a big place and there are probably places where people have more freedom. I suspect that most foreigners staying in tourist hotels will have no problems accessing the internet when they are visiting China.

[Riverwind]

Can you give me an explaination for the porn side bar? Do we assume there is an explaination for the things big companies like Google do?

It is called spyware. In addition, an ISP that wants to make a few extra bucks would be able to insert ads into popular web pages. Advertising add ons like that would be illegal in western countries but are likely as common as counterfit DVDs in China.

[Kindred]

Uh lived there for a year, going back again in August, rented an apartment there. Not living in a hotel and as I said before didnt just travel to tourist destinations or just talk to front people. I learned enough Mandarin to talk to the people about things like Government, Police, Religion, Social Policies and Services, etc

I was there when the Govt announced freedom of religion, talked to monks from Tibet who were so pleased with the move ... talked to students at Tianamen Square ....... etc Saw a lot, met and talked to a lot of people, made some good friends and cant wait to go back ........

[Live From China]

Firstly, I am not a tourist here. I am working here and living in an apartment.

Secondly, how is it that I can routinely access Amnesty International, etc? And if there are areas where people have more freedom, then that shows that China is changing.

Come on, why don't you take up my challenge and fly over here to prove that Kindred is wrong? I mean if nothing else you would actually have an enjoyable holiday! And don't worry about "losing face", it's not part of the Western psyche anyway.

[Riverwind]

Come on, why don't you take up my challenge and fly over here to prove that Kindred is wrong? I mean if nothing else you would actually have an enjoyable holiday! And don't worry about "losing face", it's not part of the Western psyche anyway.

You make interesting points and I could be persuaded that AI may have it wrong when it comes to internet censorship. However, I still find it hard to believe that companies like Google, Yahoo and Microsoft would claim that they are censoring information at the request of the gov't if it does not have some basis in fact. I believe these companies because it hurts their reputation to make those claims and it does not make sense that a profit driven company would falsely admit to doing things that would hurt their reputation.

[Live From China]

So what if Google, etc. are being asked to censor information at the request of the government?

First, there is still tons of information coming through. I mean tons!

Second, you have to understand how the Chinese mind works. Often things here are done for show. Yes, the government here is still sensitive to excessive criticism. So, Google et al is asked to "censor" information, websites, etc. Of course, in the Canadian mind, we are astounded at this suggestion. But then someone with strong understanding of "Sino-psychology" says, "Make a show of it. Censor something!" So they do, and the government is satisfied. Occasionally, they "make a scene", just so they appear to be doing their jobs. This whole process is related to the concept of "saving face."

Google, etc. still make money. Affiliated Chinese businesses still make money. Everyone is happy.

Think of it this way: the net is thrown out and a dozen fish are caught; meanwhile, millions get through.

[Charles Anthony]

"Make a show of it. Censor something!" So they do, and the government is satisfied.

Hunh???

If this is how the Chinese government trains its trolls to "educate" the world, I can not imagine what they do inside the wall of China without external scrutiny!!!

This clueless logic is starting to remind me of someone who thought that Anglo-Saxons have a slave problem.....

[Kindred]

You have to understand that China has had years of hardship, read "Wild Swans" - they have been invaded or occupied by the Japanese, the Mongols, Russians, Americans ....... and this cult Fulan Dong has stated its purpose is to challenge and take over the present Government of China ..

Anyone with the same purpose would be arrested in Canada or the US. Anyone who openly challenges a Government of any country can expect to be arrested .............

I would hazard a guess that this is the group behind the killing of students in foreign schools and a teacher, and blowing up MacDonalds.

They have killed thousands of people who oppose them, including their own family members, with the idea that their leader is a Supreme Being, a God who should rule China.

They suck people into their cult by appearing to be benign and no more dangerous than Tai Chi - yah right.

I have spoken to people in China who are too afraid to say the name of the cult, not because of the police but because they are terrified of the cult members.

That aside, this is an exciting and interesting time to be in China and everyone is watching China - the whole world. (Informed people are is how I should put it)

There has never been a Marxist/Communist state before, Mao borrowed a few ideas from Marx such as workers should work for the state and not for profit and then completely terrorized, exploited and abused the people. His was an Authoritarian Government - it wasnt Communism or Marxism - Russia is Lenonist

Mao pretended to embrace Marx and Communism but was in fact an Autoritarian Dictator and a lunatic.

He wrote his own "Littel Red Book"( Xiăo Hóngshū) that contained such ideas as "A good housewife can cook a meal for her family without any food". People could be killed if they didnt carry it with them at all times - the Chinese people were forced to memorize it -

During the Cultural Revolution, studying the book was not only required in schools but was also a standard practice in the workplace as well. All units, in the industrial, commercial, agricultural, civil service, and military sectors, organized group sessions for the entire workforce to study the book during working hours. Quotes from Mao were either bold-faced or highlighted in red, and almost all writing, including scientific essays, had to quote Mao.

To defend against the theory that it would be counter-productive, it was argued that understanding Mao's quotes could definitely bring about enlightenment to the work unit, resulting in production improvement to offset the time lost.

China has had to rebuild schools, hospitals, roads, and a whole society. Conservative estimated are that 14 to 20 million people starved to death under Mao, some ate their own children. Women gave birth while marching in the Red Army and then left the babies and marched on .....

And Mao got fatter and richer - while he was destoying schools in China he sent his own sons to Moscow to be educated.

A Chinese authot asked in an interview "who was the real Mao Tse-Tung", Chang replies, "The real Mao was completely amoral. He rejected morality as an adult decision when he was 24-years-old and he said the world exists only for me. And from then on he pursued what he wanted with basically increasing power, first to become supreme party leader and then the supreme leader of China, and then to dominate the world. He single-mindedly pursued these goals throughout his life.

"After he took power he said many times things like, 'we must conquer the Earth', 'we must set up an Earth control committee and make a uniform plan for the Earth', or , 'the Pacific Ocean isn't going to be peaceful unless we take it over'. So he was pursuing his own power until he died. ...

"He didn't achieve his superpower dream, because Mao basically was economically hopeless, and he actually left China in a shambles. ...

Today in Highschools there are students who are in their 20's because education was interrupted. Children were taken out of schools to rip up "Imperial grass" and "kill Imperial sparrows".

The Chinese experience seems to be unique. Rather than falling under a single family's self-serving and dynastic interpretation of Marxism as happened in North Korea and before 1989 in Eastern Europe, the Chinese government - after the end of the struggles over the Mao legacy in 1980 and the ascent of Deng Xiaoping - seems to have solved the succession crises that have plagued self-proclaimed Leninist governments since the death of Lenin himself.

Key to this success is another Leninism which is a NEP (New Economic Policy) writ very large; Lenin's own NEP of the 1920s was the "permission" given to markets including speculation to operate by the Party which retained final control. The Russian experience in Perestroika was that markets under socialism were so opaque as to be both inefficient and corrupt but especially after China's application to join the WTO this does not seem to apply universally. Wikepedia

As I said its an exciting time to be in China and witness history in the making, and the evolution of the New Communist Goverment as it struggles to serve the people ........... anyone who has a closed mind and is willfullly ignorant and uninformed is missing out on the oppoortunity to see a country emerging from years of oppression and occupationg and find its own atonomy and acceptance in the world.

From out of nothing China has progressed at rebuilding their country at an amazing rate and is changing constantly - as I said its an exciting time to be in China and to watch it rising from the ashes left behind by Mao. Come to China and experience it for yourself ....... you will never regret it .......

[Charles Anthony]

Please continue! Do not stop the Chinese government propaganda!

We need more education from the Chinese government!

Continue! Continue! Continue!

We need more censorship from the Chinese government!

[Riverwind]

They have killed thousands of people who oppose them, including their own family members, with the idea that their leader is a Supreme Being, a God who should rule China.

They suck people into their cult by appearing to be benign and no more dangerous than Tai Chi - yah right.

I have spoken to people in China who are too afraid to say the name of the cult, not because of the police but because they are terrified of the cult members.

Kindred, we have had our share of wacky cults in Canada so we know what cult members are likely to do. Running around killing people is not something that these kind of cults typically do. The communist party, on the other hand, has a long tradition of doing exactly that.

[geoffrey]

I was there when the Govt announced freedom of religion, talked to monks from Tibet who were so pleased with the move ... talked to students at Tianamen Square ....... etc Saw a lot, met and talked to a lot of people, made some good friends and cant wait to go back ........

For certain religions that the government doesn't find "dangerous".

The government recently insisted the Catholics appoint a hand picked Bishop or they were getting banned, again.

How free is that?

[Kindred]

Not like Muslims are being discriminate against in Canada or being spied on by CSIS and the CIA and Homeland Security - if we dont like a Muslim leader we just have them arrested and held without due process -

When it comes to discussing communism I dont feel you can do so logically or rationally unless you are able to understand and differentiate between true communism, marxism, maoism, lenonism etc - Riverwind I feel this is important because they arent all the same - and they arent communism --

(You are very vocal and I think interested in this discussion and not purely for the purpose of arguing, it would be great if you decided to go to China ! See for yourself - Mandarin is very easy to learn believe it or not ..... and you must learn Mandarin so you can talk directly to the people and not through an interpreter who is putting a spin on things .......)

Without exception the Governments that most people point to as examples of Communism or Marxism arent. The leaders, most of them being Authoritarian Regimes, have borrowed a few self serving concepts from communism and then bastardized the philosophy behind communism and marxism to serve their own selfish greedy psychopathetic agendas.

I dont know of any country that has had a government that could be accurately called communsim - do you?

When class distinctions have disappeared, public power will lose its political character. This is because political power is nothing more than "the organized power of one class for oppressing another." When the proletariat eliminate the old conditions for production, they will render class antagonism impossible, and thereby eliminate their own class supremacy. Bourgeois society will be replaced by an "association" in which "the free development of each is the condition for the free development of all."

We havent see any examples of this in history, all the so-called "communist countries" have oppressed their people and formed an Authoritarian regime.

The Catholic church is famous, or should I say infamous for interfering in politics - it is also a religion that teaches practioners that their first loyalty is to the Pope. There has been discussion in Canada about MPs voting the way their constituents wish them to vote or voting the way the Catholic church wants them to, in such issues as Womens' Rights, etc.

The conflict between religion and politics is not a new one. Church and State should be separate but the Catholic Church has a history of interfering ... I am not saying they are "bad" only that they like to meddle in politics and they do have a lot of power ........ I find reservations expressed by the Chinese understandable, and whats wrong with having a Chinese Bishop anyhow?

Charles Anthony I havent addressed your comments because I find them very amusing - I admire, in an odd way, people who have the courage to go with their paranoid fantasies and insanity. I takes a lot of courage to put yourself out there -- let others hear and see you ...... good for you ! You are a brave man.

Live From China- ta zhen congming, tong yi? (Charles Anthony) wa xi huan ta

[Kindred]

Have you checked Canada's record with AI?

Canada: Police killing of Dudley George - questions still unanswered after eight years

In a new report released today, Canada: Why there must be a public inquiry into the police killing of Dudley George, Amnesty International renewed its call for a full public inquiry into the 1995 police killing of Canadian Indigenous protester Dudley George.

Canada: The right to peaceful dissent must be respected at the G-20 meeting of finance ministers

As finance ministers arrive in Ottawa for a weekend summit of G-20 nations plus meetings of the International Monetary Fund and the World Bank, Amnesty International is calling on Canadian authorities to ensure that freedom of expression and the right to peaceful demonstration are guaranteed.

Canada: Amnesty International calls for public enquiry into alleged police brutality

In the aftermath of the Summit of the Americas in Québec City, Amnesty International is calling for a public enquiry to investigate police tactics and behaviour in handling the demonstrations which surrounded the meeting and conditions for people detained at Orsainville prison.

CANADA: Americas Summit - right to peaceful demonstration must be respected

In the run-up to the Americas Summit scheduled to take place in Québec City between 20 and 22 April Amnesty International is urging the Canadian authorities to ensure that freedom of expression and peaceful demonstration is guaranteed.

AMERICAS SUMMIT: Time for concrete action on human rights

As governments from across the American continent meet in Québec City from 20 to 22 April for their third regional Summit, Amnesty International is calling for human rights to be placed at the heart of the debate and at the forefront of their action.

Indigenous women and girls continued to suffer a disproportionately high incidence of violence. There were continuing concerns about the use by police of Taser guns.

Violence against Indigenous women

Indigenous women and girls, who have long been socially and economically marginalized in Canada, continued to suffer a disproportionately high incidence of violence. The authorities failed to implement measures to reduce the marginalization of these women and ensure that police understand and are accountable to Indigenous peoples. AI urged the authorities to institute comprehensive plans of action to ensure that Indigenous women and girls receive the protection needed.

Police abuses

Six men died in separate incidents after they were subdued by police using a Taser gun. Autopsies were pending in some cases. The authorities announced reviews of the use of Taser guns, but failed to suspend their use until an independent study was carried out.

In June in Ontario, the public inquiry opened into the 1995 killing of Dudley George, an unarmed Indigenous man shot by police during a land rights protest.

In October the public inquiry into the 1990 freezing to death in Saskatchewan of Neil Stonechild, a 17-year-old Indigenous youth, concluded that there had been a police role in his death. The Saskatchewan provincial government subsequently announced that a new process for investigating complaints against the police would be established.

There was no response to AI’s call for an inquiry into allegations of racially motivated violence against Albert Duterville, a prisoner at Port-Cartier penitentiary.

Security and human rights

A public inquiry opened in June into Canada’s role in the case of Maher Arar, a Canadian citizen of Syrian origin who was deported from the USA to Syria in 2002, where he was detained without charge or trial for a year and allegedly tortured. The role of Canadian authorities in the cases of at least three other Canadian citizens who alleged they were tortured while in detention abroad remained unclarified.

Six men remained in detention pending deportation, pursuant to security certificates issued under the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act. In five of the cases the individuals faced a serious risk of torture if deported. Under security certificate proceedings, detainees only have access to summaries of the evidence against them and have no opportunity to challenge key witnesses.

Refugee protection

The Canada/USA “safe-third country” deal was implemented in December. Under the deal, most refugee claimants passing through the USA on their way to Canada will be required to make refugee claims in the USA. AI was concerned that asylum-seekers turned away from Canada will face arbitrary and harsh detention in the USA in contravention of international standards, and that many women fearing gender-specific forms of persecution will face refoulement.

The government continued to fail to enact the provisions under the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act that would provide asylum-seekers with a full appeal against a decision denying them refugee status.

Impunity and justice

In June the Ontario Court of Appeal ruled, in the case of Bouzari v Iran, that Canada’s state immunity laws protect a foreign government from civil suits in Canadian courts for damages for torture suffered abroad.

Other concerns

There were no further negotiations regarding the long outstanding land claim of the Lubicon Cree in northern Alberta. The failure to reach a just resolution continued to contribute to violations of the rights of the Lubicon.

etc etc

[Live From China]

Charles Anthony, your comments are nothing more than a pure rant. Hardly the basis for intelligent discourse!

Kindred, wo tongyi, Charles Anthony congming! Wo ye xihuan ta!

[Riverwind]

Kindred,

You are correct to point out that Canada's record is not perfect when it comes to human rights but there is no comparison between the relatively minor issues in Canada and the frequent and excessive human rights violations in China.

Furthermore, in Canada the gov't is willing to admit mistakes and not only pay compensation to people who were wronged and even hold public inquiries into what went wrong to ensure it does not happen again. To my knowledge the Chinese gov't never admits that it makes mistakes and never compensates people it has wronged. You can argue that this is a cultural thing related to saving 'face', however, sweeping such abuses under the carpet simply ensures that nothing changes and more importantly - creates the impression that the Chinese gov't cannot be trusted.

[Charles Anthony]

We need more more MORE knowledge from the government of China!

The government of China is an illuminating source of enlightenment!

We should be grateful that Chinese government spies are in Canada so that Canadians can learn more about Canada!

We should NOT listen to Canadians!

We should NOT listen to generations and generations of Chinese people who have left (and continue to leave) China! They know nothing!

We should ONLY listen to the employees of the Chinese government! They know everything about China and Canada!

Continue! Continue educating Canadians! Such a noble and honorable job!

In fact, Canadians should ONLY learn from the government of China for all knowledge.

The employees of China can teach Canadians about China and about Canada and about the whole world.

Continue! Do not stop!

By the way, maybe this thread should be moved over to the IMMORAL & IRRELIGIOUS ISSUES category.

[Live From China]

Charles Anthony, your comments continue to be a rant! If you have been reading these posts, you will see that most of our information comes from a combination of research, reading and personal observation. I am definitely not connected with the Chinese government in any way, shape or form, and I will bet that Kindred isn't either. Although, I am sure indicating such will not convince the paranoid! Ni de ci shi da ben!

And Riverwind, it just boggles my mind that you would say that someone possibly murdered by the police in Canada is a minor issue. I'll bet their family doesn't think so! Or are you somehow less dead when murdered by the police in Canada instead of by the police in China?

[Riverwind]

And Riverwind, it just boggles my mind that you would say that someone possibly murdered by the police in Canada is a minor issue. I'll bet their family doesn't think so! Or are you somehow less dead when murdered by the police in Canada instead of by the police in China?

It was a isolated incident that was an accident - not a murder. The police officer was convicted for criminal negligence causing death. It is rediculous to compare this incident to the numerous and persistant human rights violations in China. It boogles my mind that you cannot see that.

BTW: It appears that there are holes in the wall Chinese gov't is trying to build around China: http://news.zdnet.com/2100-3513_22-6086632.html

However, the fact that Chinese have to restort to technological trickery to deceive their govt simply illustrates how oppresive and dangerous the Chinese gov't is.

[Kindred]

Riverwind there are at least six deaths that I know of that are listed with Amnesty International, related to the police in Canada - what about the natives who froze to death outside Saskatoon after being driven into the countryside, having their jackets and boots removed and then thrown on the side of the road by the police?

The post I made was in no way representative of Canada's record with AI.

Canada's nomination to the AI Board is being reviewed based on Human Rights Violations.

I am not saying there havent been Human Rights Violations in China and they probably continue, just as they have been and continue to be in Canada.

I am saying the things you and other believe and say about China arent based on personal experience of knowledge, its heresay, its opinions formed during the Mao Regime -

I am saying people should look a their own countries record before they start bashing other countries.

[Live From China]

Thanks Kindred, couldn't have said it better myself.

So Riverwind, isolated incident ? Like bloody hell!

[Riverwind]

Canada's nomination to the AI Board is being reviewed based on Human Rights Violations.

I don't know whether this is true but I am sure that that anyone working for AI would be rolling on the floor laughing if you suggested that China's record on human rights is no worse than Canada. There simply is no comparison between a country where mistakes made by the gov't are freely discussed and a country where the gov't throws people in jail daring to criticize the gov't.

[Kindred]

Is there criteria for which country is better than another? Is it dependent on happy the citizens are? The standard of living? Are only democratic countries good? Does that mean Monarchies are also bad? Does Canada and the US have the only "good" countries in the world? Are they the model of the perfect countries?

No one has said Canada has a worse record than China, I am saying Canada is not without its own sins. Nor is China without its violations -- no one has a perfect record. THATS the point I am trying to make, that and most people formed their opinion of China during the Mao years and have never changed it, and DONT KNOW what is going on in China today.

[Kindred]

Okay here is a good example for you - if you ask an American what Canada is really like, what kind of answers do you think you are going to get? A lot of the people will say we live in log cabins and igloos and have no television, and no electricity -

A lot will say its freezing cold all year in Canada, if you go to Canada in July be sure and take winter clothing with you.

And of course a lot of Americans would say we are cowards, and free loaders ......and willfully habouring terrorists, a lot still believe the 9/11 terrorists were trained in and came from Canada .......

Others say Canada is a communist country because of our socialized Government and programs. This is very common in the US. I have heard it numerous times ......

If you ask people from England a large number will say "arent they still one of the colonies and rather uncivilized? and primitive?" A friend of mine married a lady from England and this is what her family and friends asked her ..........

If you ask people in China the majority will say "Canadians are all wonderful kind people and they are all really really rich and live in mansions .."

Most of the world will say Canada has no pollution, just pristine lakes, rivers and oceans. And no crime.

The point being you cannot know what a country is like until you visit it, spend time there, talk to the people, experience the life for yourself .........