Caledonia problem didnt arise overnight

[Riverwind]

Our creation theories are a part of of our spiritual belief system and are quite different from yours. I'm sure you knew that already. Much of the "migration" theories have been contested by many Native tribes whose oracle history says different.

You sound like a Christian fanatic who argues that the world is only 6,000 years old because the "Bible says so". The evidence supporting the migration theory is not complete but it certainly has a stronger scientific basis than any other theory offered by native "oral history".

[jdobbin]

My whole point (which you always ignore) with my previous statement is that Natives have a NATURAL and indigenous connection to the land. An indigenous connection with traditional knowledge that others do not have.

It was your claim that Natives should govern land based on their connection to the land that raised my eyebrows. I couldn't help wondering how a Native company cutting down the forest is different than than a non-Native one.

[NativeCharm]

Why do I have the feeling your knowledge on our oral history is extremely limited?

[jdobbin]

lol, you're cute when you that lil' dance Riverspin.

n·dig·e·nous Audio pronunciation of "indigenous" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (n-dj-ns)

adj.

1. Originating and living or occurring naturally in an area or environment. See Synonyms at native.

2. Intrinsic; innate.

So now you want to deny the Native's INDIGENOUS connection to the land. Funny.

Must be hard living with that constant dizziness!

Yours Truly,

Your local forum's Extreme Racist

Does a Native ever lose his connection to the land?

[jdobbin]

Why do I have the feeling your knowledge on our oral history is extremely limited?

Does this mean Christian Aboriginals with their different belief system are frowned on? Or Aboriginal scientists?

[B. Max]

My whole point (which you always ignore) with my previous statement is that Natives have a NATURAL and indigenous connection to the land. An indigenous connection with traditional knowledge that others do not have.

As if the white man always had a Safeway store on every corner.

[NativeCharm]

My whole point (which you always ignore) with my previous statement is that Natives have a NATURAL and indigenous connection to the land. An indigenous connection with traditional knowledge that others do not have.

It was your claim that Natives should govern land based on their connection to the land that raised my eyebrows. I couldn't help wondering how a Native company cutting down the forest is different than than a non-Native one.

Of course you wouldn't pick a murderer to be in charge of salvation. I think you're standing to close to Riv. you're starting to pick up his twist habits.

I meant a Native traditionalist with/access to traditional land knowledge, would probably have a stronger committment to a positive outcome than someone without that type of knowledge. And who better than the Natives who know the lands far better than anyone else. I'm sure that many of you stomaching the concept that we could be an expert in anything probably deplores you.

Twist away.

[Riverwind]

Why do I have the feeling your knowledge on our oral history is extremely limited?

Native oral history is no different than the "history" in the Bible. Many events in the Bible actually occurred but the story has been altered over years and years of retelling - sometimes accidentally and sometimes deliberately. I respect that some people choose to base their religious beliefs on these stories, however, it is ridiculous to suggest that any scientific or legal decision should be based on such stories.

[NativeCharm]

To answer your question jdobbin,

An old respected elder by the name of Rose Auger ( who recently passed) stated this:

"One becomes disconnected when their feet leave the soil of their homeland".

Some elders say, then when you travel overseas to take something from the Mother (earth) of your soil. To help dis-ease the pain of the disconnection.

[jdobbin]

Of course you wouldn't pick a murderer to be in charge of salvation. I think you're standing to close to Riv. you're starting to pick up his twist habits.

I meant a Native traditionalist with/access to traditional land knowledge, would probably have a stronger committment to a positive outcome than someone without that type of knowledge. And who better than the Natives who know the lands far better than anyone else. I'm sure that many of you stomaching the concept that we could be an expert in anything probably deplores you.

Twist away.

What twist? These are questions that environmentalists both Native and non-Native have been asking a lot, especially this month with what is happening in B.C.

Who decides what an Native traditionalist is? Are they sort of like the Amish in regards to development? Are they anti-urbanization? Seriously. I'm curious to know.

[jdobbin]

To answer your question jdobbin,

An old elder by the name of rose Auger ( who recently passed) stated this:

"One becomes disconnected when their feet leave the soil of their homeland".

Some elders say, then when you travel overseas to take something from the Mother (earth) of your soil. To help dis-ease the pain of the disconnection.

I think I understand the first part but I'm not sure about the last part. What does that mean?

[NativeCharm]

To answer your question jdobbin,

An old elder by the name of rose Auger ( who recently passed) stated this:

"One becomes disconnected when their feet leave the soil of their homeland".

Some elders say, then when you travel overseas to take something from the Mother (earth) of your soil. To help dis-ease the pain of the disconnection.

I think I understand the first part but I'm not sure about the last part. What does that mean?

It's a spiritual thing. When you become disconnected, you become unbalanced. When you are unbalanced you are prone to illness, mental, physical, emotional and spiritual.

[B. Max]

Why do I have the feeling your knowledge on our oral history is extremely limited?

Native oral history is no different than the "history" in the Bible. Many events in the Bible actually occurred but the story has been altered over years and years of retelling - sometimes accidentally and sometimes deliberately. I respect that some people choose to base their religious beliefs on these stories, however, it is ridiculous to suggest that any scientific or legal decision should be based on such stories.

The bible was copied from ancient manuscripts. It is not a writing in its own. The discovery of the dead sea scrolls, and what so far has been deciphered indicates that which is the bible was copied word for word.

[NativeCharm]

I'll make an attempt to answer your question, but I'm sure someone older than I could answer much better.

A Native traditionalist which is best suited for what we are discussing should be most knowledgable in the lands of the chosen region. Knows how the land functions, grows, changes, the historical and current patterns and has extensive knowledge on all the species within. The traditionalist will have generations of knowledge from farming and nurturing to preserving and harvesting.

The persons who would best decide what/who a traditionalist is...is the elders, as they are the keepers and givers of knowledge and would best know which person knows what on specific things.

I don't think they would be anti-urbanization if it did not have harmful long term effects on the land in question.

[Riverwind]

The bible was copied from ancient manuscripts. It is not a writing in its own. The discovery of the dead sea scrolls, and what so far has been deciphered indicates that which is the bible was copied word for word.

And many events in the Bible have been since been shown to be at least partially true through the discovery of independent archaeological evidence. However, that does not mean that non-Christians should be expected to accept that every story in the Bible is the absolute truth on par with a scientific study.

[jdobbin]

It's a spiritual thing. When you become disconnected, you become unbalanced. When you are unbalanced you are prone to illness, mental, physical, emotional and spiritual.

It has been suggested by some that we all need some sort of connection with nature, the outdoors, whatever for our health.

I'd be interested in knowing how Elders think of intermarriage and cross cultural lifestyles. It is one area that other people have had difficulty adjusting to but have found rewarding in the long run.

[NativeCharm]

As if the white man always had a Safeway store on every corner.

Of course they didn't. They had natives giving them seeds, and showing them the ways of the land. DUH!

Oh wait...you wanna deny that too? Another history rewriter perhaps?

[jdobbin]

I'll make an attempt to answer your question, but I'm sure someone older than I could answer much better.

A Native traditionalist which is best suited for what we are discussing should be most knowledgable in the lands of the chosen region. Knows how the land functions, grows, changes, the historical and current patterns and has extensive knowledge on all the species within. The traditionalist will have generations of knowledge from farming and nurturing to preserving and harvesting.

The persons who would best decide what/who a traditionalist is...is the elders, as they are the keepers and givers of knowledge and would best know which person knows what on specific things.

I don't think they would be anti-urbanization if it did not have harmful long term effects on the land in question.

How do native communities keep the balance between respecting and learning from Elders and from not becoming a gerontocracy like some other cultures have found?

[NativeCharm]

I'll make an attempt to answer your question, but I'm sure someone older than I could answer much better.

A Native traditionalist which is best suited for what we are discussing should be most knowledgable in the lands of the chosen region. Knows how the land functions, grows, changes, the historical and current patterns and has extensive knowledge on all the species within. The traditionalist will have generations of knowledge from farming and nurturing to preserving and harvesting.

The persons who would best decide what/who a traditionalist is...is the elders, as they are the keepers and givers of knowledge and would best know which person knows what on specific things.

I don't think they would be anti-urbanization if it did not have harmful long term effects on the land in question.

How do native communities keep the balance between respecting and learning from Elders and from not becoming a gerontocracy like some other cultures have found?

Each community and nation is different. It's very important to keep that fact in mind. Being Native does not imply that we are all from the same tribe nor share the same customs & beliefs. Currently, the generations recovering from the effects of the attempted genocide, have been making vast improvements in ensuring that we are strengthening our knowledge from one generation to the next.

" Native spirituality was suppressed by the U.S. and Canadian governments. Spiritual leaders ran the risk of jail sentences of up to 30 years for simply practicing their rituals. This came to an end in the U.S. in 1978 when the Freedom of Religion Act was passed.

Some suicidologists believe that the extremely high suicide rate among Natives is due to the suppression of their religion and culture by the Federal Governments. This suppression is still seen in the prison administrations; Canadian prisons have only recently allowed Native sweat lodge ceremonies; most American prisons routinely deny permission. _ LINK

More and more young people are now learning their Native language and old traditions and customs are being revived, and some even updated. More and more pople are returning to the spiritual Native path as it is no longer outlawed/ banned.

Balance is the hardest thing to achieve in life.

[jdobbin]

Each community and nation is different. it's very important to keep that fact in mind. Being native does not imply that we are all from the same tribe nor share the same customs & beliefs. Currently, the generations recovering from the effects of the attempted genocide, have been making vast improvements in ensuring that we are strengthening our knowledge from one generation to the next.

" Native spirituality was suppressed by the U.S. and Canadian governments. Spiritual leaders ran the risk of jail sentences of up to 30 years for simply practicing their rituals. This came to an end in the U.S. in 1978 when the Freedom of Religion Act was passed.

Some suicidologists believe that the extremely high suicide rate among Natives is due to the suppression of their religion and culture by the Federal Governments. This suppression is still seen in the prison administrations; Canadian prisons have only recently allowed Native sweat lodge ceremonies; most American prisons routinely deny permission. _ LINK

More and more young people are now learning their Native language and old traditions and customs are being revived, and some even updated. More and more pople are returning to the spiritual native path aas it is no longer outlawed/ banned.

Balance is the hardest thing to achieve in life.

I have no problem with learning and healing from cultural touchstones.

So many Natives though have intermarried and learned other languages that there is no one particular touchstone to go back to. Some become a culture unto themselves like the Metis.

Even the Metis today are so integrated that their Metis roots have additonal touchstones of African and Asian cultures.

It's a real potpourri out there. Many young people are simply calling themselves Canadian.

[B. Max]

The bible was copied from ancient manuscripts. It is not a writing in its own. The discovery of the dead sea scrolls, and what so far has been deciphered indicates that which is the bible was copied word for word.

And many events in the Bible have been since been shown to be at least partially true through the discovery of independent archaeological evidence. However, that does not mean that non-Christians should be expected to accept that every story in the Bible is the absolute truth on par with a scientific study.

But that is a different matter from being accidentally changed or deliberately altered.

[NativeCharm]

Ahh yes. The great Canadian melting pot.I don't think it is as mixed for many Natives tho. Yes there are many intermarriages, my significant other is Ojibway. Love is love and I haven't met an elder yet that condones this. There is however many elders that frown upon "love" outside of Native descent, which is largely due to the history of abuse to the Native people's from their "white brothers".

However, many rural people(those on rez) and others do marry into their own, which contributes to the strength of the cultural lineage.

[jdobbin]

Ahh yes. The great Canadian melting pot.I don't think it is as mixed for many Natives tho. Yes there are many intermarriages, my significant other is Ojibway. Love is love and I haven't met an elder yet that condones this.

However, many rural people(those on rez) and others do marry into their own, which contributes to the strength of the cultural lineage.

They don't condone your relationship?

In Canada, there are an estimated 300,000 to 700,000 Metis. *That* is a lot of intermarriage in our past. And it is still happening today. Urbanization is the melting pot. That has been happening for a long as humans have walked the earth.

[NativeCharm]

Ahh yes. The great Canadian melting pot.I don't think it is as mixed for many Natives tho. Yes there are many intermarriages, my significant other is Ojibway. Love is love and I haven't met an elder yet that condones this.

However, many rural people(those on rez) and others do marry into their own, which contributes to the strength of the cultural lineage.

They don't condone your relationship?

In Canada, there are an estimated 300,000 to 700,000 Metis. *That* is a lot of intermarriage in our past. And it is still happening today. Urbanization is the melting pot. That has been happening for a long as humans have walked the earth.

Many Metis marry Metis. This contributes to them to being a distinct society. Just because they are a Metis DOES NOT mean they are simply half-breeds. They are truly a distinct society of their own, including their own language ~ Michif.

[jdobbin]

Many Metis marry Metis. This contributes to them to being a distinct society. Just because they are a Metis DOES NOT mean they are simply half-breeds. They are truly a distinct society of their own, including their own language ~ Michif.

I know all about the Metis. In many rural areas they still constitute a distinct society. In Winnipeg, even Metis agree, there is so much inter-marriage going on that many people are only vaguely aware they have Metis roots.