A Different Kind of Daycare Program

[FTA Lawyer]

Babies in Jail

This is the first I've ever heard of a program that has apparently been around for awhile...allowing mothers who are in jail to raise their babies in jail (until the children are 4 years old).

Aside from the particularly tragic circumstances of the case described in the article, I can't help but think that having kids developing in their formative years in prison is not such a brilliant idea. I mean, even with the benefits of state-provided health care and other resources, socially these kids will be learning their behaviours from other kids and their mothers who are likely not the best-suited to be role models.

And what happens when the kid hits their 4th birthday but the mom has 5 years left to serve? Do we just parole her or do we traumatize the 4 year old by separating him or her from the mother at that point?

I can't really see the merit to this...can anyone else?

FTA

[geoffrey]

There must be another side to this. Please tell me there is another side to this!!

[Renegade]

Babies in Jail

This is the first I've ever heard of a program that has apparently been around for awhile...allowing mothers who are in jail to raise their babies in jail (until the children are 4 years old).

Aside from the particularly tragic circumstances of the case described in the article, I can't help but think that having kids developing in their formative years in prison is not such a brilliant idea. I mean, even with the benefits of state-provided health care and other resources, socially these kids will be learning their behaviours from other kids and their mothers who are likely not the best-suited to be role models.

And what happens when the kid hits their 4th birthday but the mom has 5 years left to serve? Do we just parole her or do we traumatize the 4 year old by separating him or her from the mother at that point?

I can't really see the merit to this...can anyone else?

FTA

Too be honest, I think that if society really cared for the best interest of the child, they would confiscate the child and put it up for adoption.

I believe that society ought to have and enforce minimium standards for parents. If they don't meet that standard, they should not be allowed to be parents. Being locked up in jail, for me, meets ths standard of being an unfit parent.

I know that there will be people who will be up-in-arms about separating mothers from kids. As a practical matter, when done early, the impact is entirely on the mother, not the child, and I would say it is a situation, for the most part, of the mother's own doing.

[Drea]

Too be honest, I think that if society really cared for the best interest of the child, they would confiscate the child and put it up for adoption.

Or force the woman to have an abortion.

Too many babies are waiting for families already.

I believe that society ought to have and enforce minimium standards for parents. If they don't meet that standard, they should not be allowed to be parents. Being locked up in jail, for me, meets ths standard of being an unfit parent.

That's a real slippery slope -- who would determine the minimum requirements? What do we do with the people that don't meet the requirements? Forced temporary sterilization? Forced abortion?

Would I, who found myself a single mother with no job at age 28, have met someone's "minimum requirements"? Perhaps not, perhaps my son would've been stolen from me and raised in a lovely household where he was starved to death (as the damn gov't is so "comprehensive" when finding alternative parents for children -- I am referring to the 6 yo that was starved to death by his grandparents)

I know that there will be people who will be up-in-arms about separating mothers from kids. As a practical matter, when done early, the impact is entirely on the mother, not the child, and I would say it is a situation, for the most part, of the mother's own doing.

Once again, who is going to adopt all these babies? There are already too many babies and older children waiting for families to adopt them.

I don't agree with raising babies in jail, but I don't pretend to know all the answers either.

[Renegade]

Or force the woman to have an abortion.

Too many babies are waiting for families already.

Maybe, I could be wrong but I thought that there is a shortage of babies and an abundance of parents waiting to adopt.

Because the number of people interested in adopting infants from the United States and Canada exceeds the number of infants in need of adoption, experts have called this problem a "baby shortage."link

That's a real slippery slope -- who would determine the minimum requirements? What do we do with the people that don't meet the requirements? Forced temporary sterilization? Forced abortion?

We create standards for far less important areas, such as who can drive. I am pretty confident that we can come up with a minimium standard for parenting. I don't think society can have it both ways. They either completely stay out of parenting and let people (and kids) absorb all the consequences of that decision or society decides it has a vested interest in parenting for the protection of the child. If society believes that it should be the guardian of the childs interest it needs to take a active and sometimes coercive role. There is plenty of precedent. Look at child-support law, much is not because it is "fair", it is because it is in the best interest of the child.

As far as enforcement, yes it would require some punatitive measures such as taking away babies from parents judged unfit. Or temporary or permanant sterilization, or potentially fines for those who violate the rules. We fine and jail drivers who drive without meeting the criteria. Why should parenting be different.

Personally I'm ok if society either completely stays out or completely gets involved in the parenting decision, however I think the current situation where society is a just sits on the fence and ocassionally intervenes is just nonsense.

Would I, who found myself a single mother with no job at age 28, have met someone's "minimum requirements"? Perhaps not, perhaps my son would've been stolen from me and raised in a lovely household where he was starved to death (as the damn gov't is so "comprehensive" when finding alternative parents for children -- I am referring to the 6 yo that was starved to death by his grandparents)

Yes under parenting standards your son may have been taken away from you. But just because you succeeded in bringing up your child successfully doesn't mean we can use one case as criteria for overall social policy. I'm sure I can point to a lot of people who don't have a driver's license who would be safe drivers, and I can point to some with driver's license who are completely unsafe. Does that make the driver's license a bad idea? It is hoped that the people would starve a child to death would not meet the standard of adequate parents, but obviously there is no guaranteee.

Once again, who is going to adopt all these babies? There are already too many babies and older children waiting for families to adopt them.

I don't agree with raising babies in jail, but I don't pretend to know all the answers either.

As I've said, it was my belief that there is a demand for babies. As they become older there is much less demand, so the key may be adopting them early. For some kids I would venture that even a foster home is better than a jailhouse mom.

[Drea]

quote]Yes under parenting standards your son may have been taken away from you.

And I would have committed suicide. Take away my child, you take away my reason to live.

This attitude makes me love the fact that there are bleeding heart lefties out there to control the fanatics who would take away children from mothers because they don't have a "husband" or don't have a "job" at the moment.

Un be lieve able.

Much better would be forced abortion. You never get to know the child, the child is never born, therefore will never miss it's mother, will never have to deal with going through spankings as a toddler, never have to go through peer pressure, will never have to be "unloved" by a non-parent.

But just because you succeeded in bringing up your child successfully doesn't mean we can use one case as criteria for overall social policy.

As I succeeded, so do the vast majority of all others.

The woman I know who spent 10 years in jail while her son was raised by her sister. She is a foster parent. She looks after "difficult" children and helps their mother's cope. Guess she learned her coping skills in prison. LOL

She was in there, btw, because she murdered three men. They gang raped her, so she hunted them down one by one and murdered them. Yet there she is, looking after children! Boy our government sure is good at finding people to look after the children!

I'm sure I can point to a lot of people who don't have a driver's license who would be safe drivers, and I can point to some with driver's license who are completely unsafe. Does that make the driver's license a bad idea? It is hoped that the people would starve a child to death would not meet the standard of adequate parents, but obviously there is no guaranteee.

And yes, my Grand Am is certainly as important in my life as my 12 year old.

Driving is a priveledge. Procreating is natural, lol you don't even need lessons, just think of the movie "Blue Lagoon".

As I've said, it was my belief that there is a demand for babies. As they become older there is much less demand, so the key may be adopting them early.

If a family wants to adopt, they should have to choose from the children available, too bad if they are not babies. We should not steal children from "imperfect" parents to give them to adoptive parents who may or may not end up being good parents.

For some kids I would venture that even a foster home is better than a jailhouse mom.

Yes, and foster parents are regulated by the government to make sure they meet minimum requirements such as the cage for the child should be no smaller that 2'x4'....

[Renegade]

And I would have committed suicide. Take away my child, you take away my reason to live.

This attitude makes me love the fact that there are bleeding heart lefties out there to control the fanatics who would take away children from mothers because they don't have a "husband" or don't have a "job" at the moment.

Un be lieve able.

You had a reason to live before you had a child. Why suddenly is the child your reason to live? Irregadless, do you believe that society should be involved in a parent's choice to procreate? If not, fine, but then don't expect society to be obligated to financially support you while you persue that choice. Seems to me you want society to let you be free to choose to be a parent but then come wanting support when you are unable to fulfill the financial obligations of being a parent.

Much better would be forced abortion. You never get to know the child, the child is never born, therefore will never miss it's mother, will never have to deal with going through spankings as a toddler, never have to go through peer pressure, will never have to be "unloved" by a non-parent.

I agree, forced abortion is a better solution. However the argument that you made above still applies here. Some women would commit suicide if forced to have an abortion and the unborn baby is "their reason to live", not to mention forcing some an action against their religious beliefs. Some mothers may perfer giving their kids up for adoption over abortion. Either way it is coercion, just a matter of which action we are coercing.

As I succeeded, so do the vast majority of all others.

The woman I know who spent 10 years in jail while her son was raised by her sister. She is a foster parent. She looks after "difficult" children and helps their mother's cope. Guess she learned her coping skills in prison. LOL

But its not the vast majority we are taking about are we? It's the substantial impact on the minority which we are trying to avoid. Do you have a foolproof system for determining who will turn out fine and who will be impacted? Neither do I, neither does the government, thats why standards should be set.

Is it reasonable to expect that a parent should not be a alcohol or drug abuser? I think so. I'm sure you can point to a lot of kids who have grown up fine in households where the parent has been a drub abuser, and I'm sure I can point to a lot of kids who havent. But the irrefutable point is that it is a huge risk factor which should not be ignored.

She was in there, btw, because she murdered three men. They gang raped her, so she hunted them down one by one and murdered them. Yet there she is, looking after children! Boy our government sure is good at finding people to look after the children!

If your point is that he government's standards are not very good. I'm inclined to agree. My point is the society doesn't really have standards and as a result you have a lot of people who even by the most minimal standards are "unfit" parents.

And yes, my Grand Am is certainly as important in my life as my 12 year old.

Driving is a priveledge. Procreating is natural, lol you don't even need lessons, just think of the movie "Blue Lagoon".

I disagree. Parenting ought to be a privilidge. The fact that anyone can procreate doesn't mean anyone can be a parent.

If a family wants to adopt, they should have to choose from the children available, too bad if they are not babies. We should not steal children from "imperfect" parents to give them to adoptive parents who may or may not end up being good parents.

You can never predict who will be a good parent. Adoption agencies have that issue now but they have created guidelines. Why create these guidelines if everyone was an equally good parent. The fact you are avoiding is that in the best interest of the child, sometimes the child is better off in an adoptive family than the natural parents. What makes a good parent is your actions after the birth, not your genes.

For some kids I would venture that even a foster home is better than a jailhouse mom.

Yes, and foster parents are regulated by the government to make sure they meet minimum requirements such as the cage for the child should be no smaller that 2'x4'....

Again, I am agreeing that the government standards are not adequate, so I'm sure you would agree that the standards should be more rigorous.

[geoffrey]

Renegade, your right, there is a baby shortage.

Should just put all these kids up for adoption. No need for people to be raised in a criminal situation.

[piercj2]

This is another example of one of the insane things that goes on in our society. Take the baby away from a woman before she raises him/her for four years in prison. Obviously, it is highly likely to have a negative effect on the kids. I am tired of woman using all means neccessary to have thier way regarding life they bring into the world. They need to become more responsable and use methods of birthcontrol that allow them to have babies when they are ready, instead of aborting them and bringing them into bad circumstances. Thier are too many sufficient ways of abortion to have unwanted children, and woman are way too irresponsable regarding the decicions they are allowed to make regarding thier children. It just blows my mind the way the world is

[piercj2]

Also, there are too many woman bringing children in the world because they, "feel unloved," or, "have no reason to live," which is utterly ridiculous. You do not create life to fullfill your self regarding your feelings or insecurities, you bring life into the world when you are ready and willing to love and provide for it. Bringing life into the world for the sake of fulling some aspect of yourself is selfish beyond measure

[Drea]

Also, there are too many woman bringing children in the world because they, "feel unloved," or, "have no reason to live," which is utterly ridiculous.

I did not bring my child into this world because I had no reason to live. :angry:

I said, if I would of had to give him up after I had him I would THEN have no reason to live.

OBVIOUSLY you have never loved a human being more than you love yourself. That's what happens when you have kids, they become more important than you.

Children should not be raised in prisons (how many are there currently being raised there? Like 50% of society? 10%? 1%? How many?)

Children should be raised by their parents. And if two are not available, one will have to do. Children should not be taken from "less than perfect" parents to be given to "perfect parents".

[Renegade]

Children should not be taken from "less than perfect" parents to be given to "perfect parents".

Would you still say that if the parents were known child molesters?

[Drea]

Of course not!

[Renegade]

Of course not!

So then it is safe to say that you do have some standards of what a fit parent is and you don't consider that just anyone can be a fit parent?

[Drea]

Of course not!

So then it is safe to say that you do have some standards of what a fit parent is and you don't consider that just anyone can be a fit parent?

Why not just tell us your standards of what a 'fit' parent is?

I'm not up to "setting standards" -- I'm obviously an unfit parent -- because I was a single mother back in 1993, I'm not "up to par" according to some (you) who would have gleefully stolen my son from me.

[Renegade]

Of course not!

So then it is safe to say that you do have some standards of what a fit parent is and you don't consider that just anyone can be a fit parent?

Why not just tell us your standards of what a 'fit' parent is?

I'm not up to "setting standards" -- I'm obviously an unfit parent -- because I was a single mother back in 1993, I'm not "up to par" according to some (you) who would have gleefully stolen my son from me.

It would seem that we agree that there are some parents who are fit and that some who are unfit. We both agree that children should be taken away from unfit parents. The only real difference between our positions is we haven't agreed on what constitutes a fit parent.

Even though you say you are not up to "setting standards" you clearly have already some standards (at least in your mind) on what constitutes a fit parent. Clearly a proven chlid molestor is not.

As to whether you are up to par, or would have been up to par at the time you had your son. I have no idea. I don't know the details of your circumstance so I have no context to say that you would have been an unfit parent. You can use retoric like "gleefully stolen" if you prefer but it is really out of context and inappropriate. What motiviation would I have to take away your child if I truly felt you could provide the right environment to raise the child?

As to what standards I woudl set, I have not given it a lot of thought but here are some I would likely factor in:

1. Maturity (Are they emotionally capable of parenting)

2. Child's wellbeing (Are they likely to physically or mentally abuse the child or introduce them to such an environment)

3. Support Structure ( Do they have fiinancial, family, and other support mechanisms necessary to provide for the child)

4. Do they have impairments (drug addictions, mental disease, etc) which woudl substantially impact them from parenting.

5. Do they have a successful record of parenting? (ie how did other kids they parented turn out?)

I'm sure there are others, but these are just some factors which I think ought to be considered.

[Drea]

One does not know how one will be as a parent until one becomes a parent.

Having children was never my "dream". Having a great career was my dream.

During my pregnancy I was extremely unsure if I would be able to love a child (I'd never loved a child before and did not know I was capable of it).

When my son was born I could not believe how in love I instantly became. People that knew me 20 years ago say "You have a kid? But you always hated kids!'

I still hate other people's kids. Not all kids but brats, I really hate brats.

See now would you have considered me "suitable" parent material? After all, during the pregnancy I had doubts that I could love the child. Would you have forced me to give him up in the "chance" that I may not be a good mother based on the fact that I didn't know I could love him?

I am an awesome mother by the way! My son is such a great kid, always was and hopefully he always will be. *insert bragging icon here*

[Renegade]

One does not know how one will be as a parent until one becomes a parent.

Having children was never my "dream". Having a great career was my dream.

During my pregnancy I was extremely unsure if I would be able to love a child (I'd never loved a child before and did not know I was capable of it).

When my son was born I could not believe how in love I instantly became. People that knew me 20 years ago say "You have a kid? But you always hated kids!'

I still hate other people's kids. Not all kids but brats, I really hate brats.

See now would you have considered me "suitable" parent material? After all, during the pregnancy I had doubts that I could love the child. Would you have forced me to give him up in the "chance" that I may not be a good mother based on the fact that I didn't know I could love him?

I am an awesome mother by the way! My son is such a great kid, always was and hopefully he always will be. *insert bragging icon here*

Drea, given your pride you have expressed, I have no doubt that you are a wonderful parent and provided a great upbringing for your child.

The fact is we don't ever know. But is it irresponsible to consider risk factors which would make someone a bad parent?

A child-molester **may** turn out to be a good parent. Do we know for sure? No. Do we think the risk is to high to chance it? Definately!!!

If you can see that there are certain factors which you would recognize in a parent which may put the child at risk, why is it such a difficult extention for you to see, that these are criteria which we can use to determine suitability as a parent.

Based upon your responses I would conclude that based upon your personal experience as a mother, this issue would touch too close to home and you are not looking at the issue objectively.

[Drea]

Drea, given your pride you have expressed, I have no doubt that you are a wonderful parent and provided a great upbringing for your child.

The fact is we don't ever know. But is it irresponsible to consider risk factors which would make someone a bad parent?

A child-molester **may** turn out to be a good parent. Do we know for sure? No. Do we think the risk is to high to chance it? Definately!!!

If you can see that there are certain factors which you would recognize in a parent which may put the child at risk, why is it such a difficult extention for you to see, that these are criteria which we can use to determine suitability as a parent.

Based upon your responses I would conclude that based upon your personal experience as a mother, this issue would touch too close to home and you are not looking at the issue objectively.

Of course I don't look at it objectively. No one with children would look at it objectively.

Regardless... society is not going to "let" people become parents. It's not as though there's a lot to it... just sex.

And if we want to regulate who has children and who doesn't then we must force sterilize people, permanently or temporarily; or force them to give up their babies at birth; or force abortion.

None of these things will ever come about.

As far as the topic is concerned (raising kids in jail) I don't agree. The child should be put in foster care or with a relative until the mother is out of jail.

[Renegade]

Of course I don't look at it objectively. No one with children would look at it objectively.

I am a single parent myself. Personally where I hold views which impact more than just myself I make a concious effort to be objective and put aside self-interest. I know this is not always possible but that is what I would aim for.

Regardless... society is not going to "let" people become parents. It's not as though there's a lot to it... just sex.

And if we want to regulate who has children and who doesn't then we must force sterilize people, permanently or temporarily; or force them to give up their babies at birth; or force abortion.

None of these things will ever come about.

True the techology doesn't yet exist to implement this, but I'm confident that in time it will be possible to enforce such a system. More than likely it will be a enforced contraception system.

As far as the topic is concerned (raising kids in jail) I don't agree. The child should be put in foster care or with a relative until the mother is out of jail.

You may not agree, but as you've admitted your views are colured by you lack of objectivity.

[Drea]

True the techology doesn't yet exist to implement this, but I'm confident that in time it will be possible to enforce such a system. More than likely it will be a enforced contraception system.

Not unless we live under a facist govt. Really, we already have the technology in contraception. I'm sure there is a birth control "shot" that can last and last -- the current one only lasts 3 months. Of course, never mind how unhealthy it is for a woman to stop her period for years on end.... I tried that birth control shot and felt ill the whole time.

And like I said, unless we are living in a totalitarian state, you can't just force people to take a contraceptive.

Guess we'll just have to live with "imperfect" parents just as societies have done for millenia.

You may not agree, but as you've admitted your views are colured by you lack of objectivity.

Do you agree with mothers raising their children in jail?

I don't believe a child should be subject to such circumstances. He/she is better off being raised temporarily by foster parents or a relative of the incarcerated mother.

[facetious rant]

YOU are a single parent?

Then sheesh, you are also an unfit parent -- just like me! Shame on you for being so selfish as to have a kid by yourself! Would your kid not have been better of being adopted by a "perfect" set of parents?

[/facetious rant]

[Renegade]

Not unless we live under a facist govt. Really, we already have the technology in contraception. I'm sure there is a birth control "shot" that can last and last -- the current one only lasts 3 months. Of course, never mind how unhealthy it is for a woman to stop her period for years on end.... I tried that birth control shot and felt ill the whole time.

And like I said, unless we are living in a totalitarian state, you can't just force people to take a contraceptive.

Guess we'll just have to live with "imperfect" parents just as societies have done for millenia.

I guess my point is if parents expect a taxpayer support for parenting, they should equally expect that taxpayer imposes rules on parenting. Now I am fine if people don't think the government and its funding arm don't intervene in parenting, but then stop blaming the government for parental responsibiltites.

If we really want to make a difference in issues like child poverty, child abuse, child education, then it requires more tolatarian control because some parents simply are not up to it. Parents, if you don't want the state to have a say in your choices, stop blaming the government for issues which are really your problem.

Do you agree with mothers raising their children in jail?

I don't believe a child should be subject to such circumstances. He/she is better off being raised temporarily by foster parents or a relative of the incarcerated mother.

No I don't agree with mothers raising their children in jail. I would say that in almost all cases, for babies they bear while incarcerated it is a demonstration of their unsuitability as a parent. You say that they are better off temporarily in foster care, I say they are better off permanantly in adoptive care.

[facetious rant]

YOU are a single parent?

Then sheesh, you are also an unfit parent -- just like me! Shame on you for being so selfish as to have a kid by yourself! Would your kid not have been better of being adopted by a "perfect" set of parents?

[/facetious rant]

Who the hell knows? Maybe I'm an unfit parent. I don't hold myself up to a different standard than I propose for others. I would not object if someone did a review and assessed my ability to parent and then determined if I could have a child. I would expect the same for all potential parents.

[Drea]

No I don't agree with mothers raising their children in jail. I would say that in almost all cases, for babies they bear while incarcerated it is a demonstration of their unsuitability as a parent. You say that they are better off temporarily in foster care, I say they are better off permanantly in adoptive care.

So a parent is not allowed one mistake?

Yer harsh!

Who the hell knows? Maybe I'm an unfit parent. I don't hold myself up to a different standard than I propose for others. I would not object if someone did a review and assessed my ability to parent and then determined if I could have a child. I would expect the same for all potential parents.

Yah ok.... let's sterilize all the people until they can prove they will be good parents.

Btw, Andrea Yates was a good parent in the beginning, then she drowned all 5 of her kids.

[Renegade]

So a parent is not allowed one mistake?

Yer harsh!

Depends upon how big the mistake is. Some mistakes there is no recovering from. How about if they just assualted a child just one time. Forgive and forget?

Yah ok.... let's sterilize all the people until they can prove they will be good parents.

Good idea. Wish I thought of it.

Btw, Andrea Yates was a good parent in the beginning, then she drowned all 5 of her kids.

How do you kow she was a good parent? Maybe an assessesment would have shown her emotional instablilty and prevented her from having kids to begin with.

[Drea]

Regardless, your dream of assessing all humans as to their parental suitability, ain't gonna happen.