NorthCom or Bust

[Nocrap]

If Canadians really want to know what’s behind Harper’s sudden interest in an increased military presence, they need to look at a liitle old US scheme called NorthCom. From the ‘Special Briefing on the Unified Command Plan’ Wednesday, April 17, 2002; US Secretary of Defense Donald H. Rumsfeld, who also happens to be the NorthCom commander; stated that it’s “geographic area will include, the continental United States and Alaska, Canada, Mexico and parts of the Caribbean and waters out to a minimum of 500 miles”.

However, former PM Chretien refused to join NORTHCOM, seeing it as a threat to Canadian sovereignty, and why wouldn’t he? Canada's acceptance would not only mean support of the Ballistic Missile Shield, but of the entire US war agenda, including hikes in defense spending that would be allocated to a defense program controlled by the Pentagon. (Re: Harper’s other blue book entitled Stand Up For Canada and Bend Over for the USA)

When the late Vincent Massey was Canadian High Commissioner in London, he stated that "Canada has been too preoccupied with her own war effort to cope with the Americans who unfortunately, under the cover of the needs of war, are acting in the Northwest as if they owned the country."

In 1982, Canadian diplomat John W. Holmes discussing NORAD - “if there were no rules, the Americans would simply take over the defence of the continent."

Under NORTHCOM, Canada’s borders would be controlled by US officials and confidential information on Canadians shared with Homeland Security (A US firm has already been given the contract to process Canadian Census forms.

US troops and Special Forces would then be able to enter Canada and arrest any Canadian citizens they deemed to be a risk.

Rumour is that Bush has promised to get rid of the 'Softwood Lumber' problem in exchange for Canadian troops to reinforce his, in preparation for the new war against Iran. This will solve two problems. Emerson will come off as the ‘softwood hero’, despite the fact that he had to sit out on the debates due to conflict of interest; and many of Harper’s campaign contributors will cash in big time on new military contracts. It’s a win-win, right???

[margrace]

O Dear don't talk that way America1 won't like it.

[Spike22]

If Canadians really want to know what’s behind Harper’s sudden interest in an increased military presence, they need to look at a liitle old US scheme called NorthCom. From the ‘Special Briefing on the Unified Command Plan’ Wednesday, April 17, 2002; US Secretary of Defense Donald H. Rumsfeld, who also happens to be the NorthCom commander; stated that it’s “geographic area will include, the continental United States and Alaska, Canada, Mexico and parts of the Caribbean and waters out to a minimum of 500 miles”.

However, former PM Chretien refused to join NORTHCOM, seeing it as a threat to Canadian sovereignty, and why wouldn’t he? Canada's acceptance would not only mean support of the Ballistic Missile Shield, but of the entire US war agenda, including hikes in defense spending that would be allocated to a defense program controlled by the Pentagon. (Re: Harper’s other blue book entitled Stand Up For Canada and Bend Over for the USA)

When the late Vincent Massey was Canadian High Commissioner in London, he stated that "Canada has been too preoccupied with her own war effort to cope with the Americans who unfortunately, under the cover of the needs of war, are acting in the Northwest as if they owned the country."

In 1982, Canadian diplomat John W. Holmes discussing NORAD - “if there were no rules, the Americans would simply take over the defence of the continent."

Under NORTHCOM, Canada’s borders would be controlled by US officials and confidential information on Canadians shared with Homeland Security (A US firm has already been given the contract to process Canadian Census forms.

US troops and Special Forces would then be able to enter Canada and arrest any Canadian citizens they deemed to be a risk.

Rumour is that Bush has promised to get rid of the 'Softwood Lumber' problem in exchange for Canadian troops to reinforce his, in preparation for the new war against Iran. This will solve two problems. Emerson will come off as the ‘softwood hero’, despite the fact that he had to sit out on the debates due to conflict of interest; and many of Harper’s campaign contributors will cash in big time on new military contracts. It’s a win-win, right???

Finally Bush and Harper have it right. Cross border protection. so your liberties will be slightly affected. That is the price of freedom and security -I am all for it. If you didn't think the US wasn't already looking out for our behind think again. The US thinks strategically (regionally and globally)while we think tactically (our own little country) - Big picture vs little.

As for US troops arresting Canadian citizens I think you are stretching it just a wee little bit.

[Wilber]

"In 1982, Canadian diplomat John W. Holmes discussing NORAD - “if there were no rules, the Americans would simply take over the defence of the continent."

They didn't have to take it over, we forfeited it to them.

[cybercoma]

Yet, you'll be the first to say we don't need an active military because if anything were to happen the US would protect us.

[Wilber]

Yet, you'll be the first to say we don't need an active military because if anything were to happen the US would protect us.

If this is directed at me, you have obviously never read any of my posts.

[margrace]

Yet, you'll be the first to say we don't need an active military because if anything were to happen the US would protect us.

Anyone who says that needs to have their head examined.

[GostHacked]

Finally Bush and Harper have it right. Cross border protection. so your liberties will be slightly affected. That is the price of freedom and security -I am all for it. If you didn't think the US wasn't already looking out for our behind think again. The US thinks strategically (regionally and globally)while we think tactically (our own little country) - Big picture vs little.

As for US troops arresting Canadian citizens I think you are stretching it just a wee little bit.

Are you kidding me? My liberties slightly affected? What is next? And do not call me an alarmist or anything like that, bit by bit, your liberties will be removed for more security. But overall it is in the best interest of the people.

NO F'N WAY.

Never will I want someone south of the border to dictate what goes on in Canada. As much as I am hating to say it, I would rather the liberals screw me out of a couple hundered million dollars than to sell off the whole country to some wack job in the White House.

Canadian liberties will stay as such unless you agree to these little admentments.

How long before you see the Canadian Patriot Act? I poredict 6 months before something like this is intriduced, I may be wrong, but if it happens, you can't say no one warned you. I would rather it never get to that point.

[geoffrey]

You guys are halarious.

That was the best argument I've ever heard.

We've hired Americans for the census, whats the next step?! A TAKEOVER FROM THE SOUTH!!! RED ALERT boys and girls, grab your ankles!

That has to be one of the best connections I've heard from the looney left in days.

Just to let ya in on a little something. In Canada, businesses pretty much can't donate to parties. As well, much of Harper's funding comes from $10-$20 little donations from average joes. If you want to see the corporate/union lobby, the NDP and Liberals have the numbers for you.

[scribblet]

Whoooo sounds like this forum is in for a bit of Bush bashing and conspiracy theories, better get our tin foil hats out LOL Someone else suffering from BDS (Bush derangement syndrom) and HDS

The Yanks are coming, the Yanks are coming, lock up your wife and kids LOL

[scribblet]

Yet, you'll be the first to say we don't need an active military because if anything were to happen the US would protect us.

Anyone who says that needs to have their head examined.

Why would someone need their head examined for saying that, could you elaborate on that and why you think the U.S., would not protect us. I highly doubt that the U.S. would sit back and watch as Canada is attacked, we sure don't have the capability of defending ourselves. Thank goodness the U.S. is our neighbour, but maybe you'd rather have Iran as a neighbour.,

[Wilber]

Yet, you'll be the first to say we don't need an active military because if anything were to happen the US would protect us.

Anyone who says that needs to have their head examined.

When you look at how our military has been cut back over the past 30 years, obviously a lot of people need their heads examined.

[cybercoma]

Yet, you'll be the first to say we don't need an active military because if anything were to happen the US would protect us.

Anyone who says that needs to have their head examined.

When you look at how our military has been cut back over the past 30 years, obviously a lot of people need their heads examined.

exactly.

I wasn't talking about you wilber. I was talking about the thread starter. Bash America, but cries to them for help when something happens.

[Hicksey]

Finally Bush and Harper have it right. Cross border protection. so your liberties will be slightly affected. That is the price of freedom and security -I am all for it. If you didn't think the US wasn't already looking out for our behind think again. The US thinks strategically (regionally and globally)while we think tactically (our own little country) - Big picture vs little.

As for US troops arresting Canadian citizens I think you are stretching it just a wee little bit.

Are you kidding me? My liberties slightly affected? What is next? And do not call me an alarmist or anything like that, bit by bit, your liberties will be removed for more security. But overall it is in the best interest of the people.

NO F'N WAY.

Never will I want someone south of the border to dictate what goes on in Canada. As much as I am hating to say it, I would rather the liberals screw me out of a couple hundered million dollars than to sell off the whole country to some wack job in the White House.

Canadian liberties will stay as such unless you agree to these little admentments.

How long before you see the Canadian Patriot Act? I poredict 6 months before something like this is intriduced, I may be wrong, but if it happens, you can't say no one warned you. I would rather it never get to that point.

Why are liberals so whiny about the Patriot Act?

Unless you're plotting with foreign terrorists to strike your own soil, you're not affected one bit. Not one ioda. Your life goes on as is.

[ceemes]

Yet, you'll be the first to say we don't need an active military because if anything were to happen the US would protect us.

Anyone who says that needs to have their head examined.

Why would someone need their head examined for saying that, could you elaborate on that and why you think the U.S., would not protect us. I highly doubt that the U.S. would sit back and watch as Canada is attacked, we sure don't have the capability of defending ourselves. Thank goodness the U.S. is our neighbour, but maybe you'd rather have Iran as a neighbour.,

This of course begs the question, who else other then the US is in position to attack or invade Canada? Last time I looked, there were two smegging oceans between us any European or Asian aggressor. And be blunt, the US has been the only nation that actually tried invading Canada and is the nation that has made the most attempts to infringe on Canadian territories. Take up north for instance. To here the Americans tell it, the northern most border between Alaska and The Yukon suddenly veers some 45 degrees east once it hits the coastline.

Being Americas "friend" is a doubious honour at best, just ask Panama or Iraq. If you have something the US wants and you are not willing to give to them under their terms, you can expect a quick reigm change forced apon you and your government. No other nation has invaded more nations or overthrown more government in the last twenty years then the Americans.

We as Canadian should be very concerned about Harper kissing up to the US, did anyone catch his speech to the troops in Kandahar? A word for word carbon copy compulation of various Bush's speechs. Canada is a large nation with a relatively small population, rich in comodities that the US lusts after, the two biggest being oil and potable water. Surrendering even a small measure of our sovereignty to the US is bad. In order to remain the True North, Strong and Free, we need leaders and people in Ottawa to tell the Yanks to F - off and go piss up a rope. Otherwise, we may as well turn over the keys to the whole shop.

[ceemes]

Yet, you'll be the first to say we don't need an active military because if anything were to happen the US would protect us.

Anyone who says that needs to have their head examined.

When you look at how our military has been cut back over the past 30 years, obviously a lot of people need their heads examined.

exactly.

I wasn't talking about you wilber. I was talking about the thread starter. Bash America, but cries to them for help when something happens.

This is soooo laughable. America only helps those who they have a vested (finacial or geo-political) interest in. I was in the CAF some twenty years ago, back in the worse days of both Liberal and Conservative mismanagement of the CAF. And I worked with the US Armed Forces during joint exercises. Know what we called them back then? Semi's, for semi-trained, semi-educated, semi-useful, semi-intelligent, and semi-human. For the most part, we had little use or respect for the average US trooper, and judging from my friends still serving in the CAF have to tell me, little has changed since then.

[Hicksey]

Yet, you'll be the first to say we don't need an active military because if anything were to happen the US would protect us.

Anyone who says that needs to have their head examined.

Why would someone need their head examined for saying that, could you elaborate on that and why you think the U.S., would not protect us. I highly doubt that the U.S. would sit back and watch as Canada is attacked, we sure don't have the capability of defending ourselves. Thank goodness the U.S. is our neighbour, but maybe you'd rather have Iran as a neighbour.,

This of course begs the question, who else other then the US is in position to attack or invade Canada? Last time I looked, there were two smegging oceans between us any European or Asian aggressor. And be blunt, the US has been the only nation that actually tried invading Canada and is the nation that has made the most attempts to infringe on Canadian territories. Take up north for instance. To here the Americans tell it, the northern most border between Alaska and The Yukon suddenly veers some 45 degrees east once it hits the coastline.

Being Americas "friend" is a doubious honour at best, just ask Panama or Iraq. If you have something the US wants and you are not willing to give to them under their terms, you can expect a quick reigm change forced apon you and your government. No other nation has invaded more nations or overthrown more government in the last twenty years then the Americans.

We as Canadian should be very concerned about Harper kissing up to the US, did anyone catch his speech to the troops in Kandahar? A word for word carbon copy compulation of various Bush's speechs. Canada is a large nation with a relatively small population, rich in comodities that the US lusts after, the two biggest being oil and potable water. Surrendering even a small measure of our sovereignty to the US is bad. In order to remain the True North, Strong and Free, we need leaders and people in Ottawa to tell the Yanks to F - off and go piss up a rope. Otherwise, we may as well turn over the keys to the whole shop.

I can't stand such arrogant opinions. Why SHOULDN'T we be ready to defend ourselves? Just because tactically the US pretty well has to does not absolve us of the responsibility. We spend less on our military than some third world countries.

You may noy like the Americans, and its your right to have that opinion. But remember this: without them consuming fully 70% of what this country produces, this socialist's wet dream doesn't work. Maybe you should do some travelling and meet a few of them. A few average joes. I meet them everywhere all the time in my job. They're really no different than us. Their swelled sense of national pride is no more arrogant than the average Canadian who scoffs at them and hold their nose up to the sky while claiming to be better.

[geoffrey]

I can't stand such arrogant opinions. Why SHOULDN'T we be ready to defend ourselves? Just because tactically the US pretty well has to does not absolve us of the responsibility. We spend less on our military than some third world countries.

You may noy like the Americans, and its your right to have that opinion. But remember this: without them consuming fully 70% of what this country produces, this socialist's wet dream doesn't work. Maybe you should do some travelling and meet a few of them. A few average joes. I meet them everywhere all the time in my job. They're really no different than us. Their swelled sense of national pride is no more arrogant than the average Canadian who scoffs at them and hold their nose up to the sky while claiming to be better.

Socialists don't understand how much they US does for us currently. Their lack of any economic sense is just astounded. Then again, if they had economic sense, they wouldn't be socialits...

I find Canadians way more arrogant than MOST Americans. I have some a few hours away in Montana that are pretty arrogant, but talking to people through Washington and Oregon and places like that, they are far less arrogant than Canadians.

I'm really sick of Canadians doing the "we are so much better because we aren't arrogant" line. I wonder when these idiots will see their hypocrisy.

[ceemes]

Yet, you'll be the first to say we don't need an active military because if anything were to happen the US would protect us.

Anyone who says that needs to have their head examined.

Why would someone need their head examined for saying that, could you elaborate on that and why you think the U.S., would not protect us. I highly doubt that the U.S. would sit back and watch as Canada is attacked, we sure don't have the capability of defending ourselves. Thank goodness the U.S. is our neighbour, but maybe you'd rather have Iran as a neighbour.,

This of course begs the question, who else other then the US is in position to attack or invade Canada? Last time I looked, there were two smegging oceans between us any European or Asian aggressor. And be blunt, the US has been the only nation that actually tried invading Canada and is the nation that has made the most attempts to infringe on Canadian territories. Take up north for instance. To here the Americans tell it, the northern most border between Alaska and The Yukon suddenly veers some 45 degrees east once it hits the coastline.

Being Americas "friend" is a doubious honour at best, just ask Panama or Iraq. If you have something the US wants and you are not willing to give to them under their terms, you can expect a quick reigm change forced apon you and your government. No other nation has invaded more nations or overthrown more government in the last twenty years then the Americans.

We as Canadian should be very concerned about Harper kissing up to the US, did anyone catch his speech to the troops in Kandahar? A word for word carbon copy compulation of various Bush's speechs. Canada is a large nation with a relatively small population, rich in comodities that the US lusts after, the two biggest being oil and potable water. Surrendering even a small measure of our sovereignty to the US is bad. In order to remain the True North, Strong and Free, we need leaders and people in Ottawa to tell the Yanks to F - off and go piss up a rope. Otherwise, we may as well turn over the keys to the whole shop.

I can't stand such arrogant opinions. Why SHOULDN'T we be ready to defend ourselves? Just because tactically the US pretty well has to does not absolve us of the responsibility. We spend less on our military than some third world countries.

Why shouldn't we defend ourselves? No reason at all not to if you ask me. Let me get this straight right off the bat, I am not a namby pamby limp wristed anti-military whatever, I served in the CAF for seven years and I am very very proud of that fact. Can you say the same thing?

I would dearly love to see some form of manditory National Service along the lines of the Swiss or Israeli models in Canada, where every abled-bodied man and WOMAN between the ages of 18 and 55 had to complete a complusory two stint in the regular Armed Forces for basic military and trade training followed by manditory enrollment into an active reserve after they completed their two years with the regs. This would give Canada a trained and equipped fighting force of between 10 to 20 million effectives, and that would be a suitable deterant to any would be agressor.

I would like to see such a force not because I am gung-ho and pro-war, but because I can see the need for such a deterant to the most blatant threat to Canadian Soveriegnty going, the US. There is no other direct threat to Canadian nationhood, apart from a few internal radical Albertan and Quebec elements, then invasion and annixation by the US. No other nation in the world has the logistical ability to invade let alone occupy a nation as large as or far away as Canada. Only the US has the location and ability to pull off such an endevour. As it stands, the CAF is too small and too ill-equipped to stop the US if it decides the time has finally come to take over our nation.

However, I very much doubt that you or I will ever see such a Canadian force in our lifetimes for a number of reasons:

1. The Canadian people would not support such a measure as complusory national service or manditory enrollment into active reserve units for all able bodied men and women till the age of 55.

2. No Canadian Government would ever support let alone propose such a measure, to do so would be instant death at the polls.

3. Canadian business would not support such a measure because it would require them to give their work force time off for military training purposes of at least two weeks per year. This could be off set by government compensation, however the loss of productivity would be prohibative.

4. I strongly doubt that the US would allow Canada to enact such a measure, mainly because it would be a direct threat to their current hold on Canada and Canadian politics. The powers that be in Washington are quite happy with the status quo vis a vis the strenght of the CAF. Just about large enough to support their (the US's) missions in various parts of the world, ie Afghanistan, and yet small enough to be brushed aside when the time came. The day Ottawa institutes a manditory military service model akin to the Swiss or Israelis is the day you will see US troops on the streets of Canadian cities and towns.

You may noy like the Americans, and its your right to have that opinion. But remember this: without them consuming fully 70% of what this country produces, this socialist's wet dream doesn't work.

It is long past time that we Canadians and Canadian industry weened ourselves off the American teat. The US economy is a false bubble economy propped up by massive debt and the Fed printing dollars of declining value.

The only reason that the US dollar is held by most foreign nations reserve accounts is to pay for their oil imports. However, that could be changing in a very short while. The biggest threat Iran poses to the US in not some mythical future nuclear device, but its propose Iranian Oil Bourse, which is set to trade in Euros and not the Greenback. And it is not just Iran that is set to trade its oil in Euros instead of the Greenback, Venezuela is also opting to use Euros instead of the US$. Recently China and Venezuela signed a massive deal where China will pay for it Venezuelan oil import and its investments in Venezuela with you guessed it, the Euro, not the Greenback. I read an article a few months ago where Canada was considering demanding payment for its oil exports in Canadian dollars instead of US dollars due to the declining value of the Greenback. If these measure go through, and so far I see no reason that they will not, then the dominance of the US$ will be broken, plunging the US into a deep economic decline. Indeed as we speak, many nations such as China, Japan, Taiwan, Russia, Singapore and others with large US$ reserves are divesting themselves of their dollar holdings in favour of either the Euro or Gold. At the same time, nations such as China and Japan are becoming a bit leerly of acquiring futher US debt notes and instruments such a T-Bills. And without those loans from Asia, the US will not be able to pay for its various little adventures in the Middle East.

What does this mean for Canada and Canadian export into the US? Nothing good to be honest. It is said that if the US economy has a hick up, the Canadian economy comes down with a full blown case of the flu. This is why it is extremely important that Canadian business seek and secure other markets overseas for its goods and services, it would be suicidal to continue to rely on the US market alone. Many progress Canadian companies have done just that, moved from relying on US markets and developed overseas ones in its place. The soft wood industry has done just that in light of the bs traiffs thrown at them by the US. The US will always be an important market for Canada, however, it should not account for any more then 10 to 20 percent of our total exports.

Maybe you should do some travelling and meet a few of them. A few average joes. I meet them everywhere all the time in my job. They're really no different than us. Their swelled sense of national pride is no more arrogant than the average Canadian who scoffs at them and hold their nose up to the sky while claiming to be better.

My own business depends on cross border trade and I deal with Americans on a daily basis. Yes, individually they are a nice and even great people. However, as a society I find them sadly lacking in compassion, tolerance of others and understanding of cultural differances. However, they cannot help but be that way, after all they have been indoctrinated since birth to believe that the US is the end all and be all of peoples and nations. They really cannot comprehend that not everyone in the world wants to be like them or even like what they stand for. It goes against everything they have been taught since they learned to walk and talk.

[Hicksey]

Why shouldn't we defend ourselves? No reason at all not to if you ask me. Let me get this straight right off the bat, I am not a namby pamby limp wristed anti-military whatever, I served in the CAF for seven years and I am very very proud of that fact. Can you say the same thing?

I would dearly love to see some form of manditory National Service along the lines of the Swiss or Israeli models in Canada, where every abled-bodied man and WOMAN between the ages of 18 and 55 had to complete a complusory two stint in the regular Armed Forces for basic military and trade training followed by manditory enrollment into an active reserve after they completed their two years with the regs. This would give Canada a trained and equipped fighting force of between 10 to 20 million effectives, and that would be a suitable deterant to any would be agressor.

I would like to see such a force not because I am gung-ho and pro-war, but because I can see the need for such a deterant to the most blatant threat to Canadian Soveriegnty going, the US. There is no other direct threat to Canadian nationhood, apart from a few internal radical Albertan and Quebec elements, then invasion and annixation by the US. No other nation in the world has the logistical ability to invade let alone occupy a nation as large as or far away as Canada. Only the US has the location and ability to pull off such an endevour. As it stands, the CAF is too small and too ill-equipped to stop the US if it decides the time has finally come to take over our nation.

However, I very much doubt that you or I will ever see such a Canadian force in our lifetimes for a number of reasons:

1. The Canadian people would not support such a measure as complusory national service or manditory enrollment into active reserve units for all able bodied men and women till the age of 55.

2. No Canadian Government would ever support let alone propose such a measure, to do so would be instant death at the polls.

3. Canadian business would not support such a measure because it would require them to give their work force time off for military training purposes of at least two weeks per year. This could be off set by government compensation, however the loss of productivity would be prohibative.

4. I strongly doubt that the US would allow Canada to enact such a measure, mainly because it would be a direct threat to their current hold on Canada and Canadian politics. The powers that be in Washington are quite happy with the status quo vis a vis the strenght of the CAF. Just about large enough to support their (the US's) missions in various parts of the world, ie Afghanistan, and yet small enough to be brushed aside when the time came. The day Ottawa institutes a manditory military service model akin to the Swiss or Israelis is the day you will see US troops on the streets of Canadian cities and towns.

I disagree that we need a draft. I think a force that wants to be there will not only end up being better trained, but more motivated to complete whatever mission is at hand. However I do agree that Canadians would never support the idea as most are so far removed from war and having any clue what sacrifices have been made for their freedom. They simply don't appreciate that there's a price to be paid for freedom. As such, I also agree that politician would ever approach the issue because the second he suggested it he'd kiss his career goodbye. I don't believe the US would ever have to move their military in to take us over. We're so dependent on the teet of the USA that they could buy us for pennies on the dollar after destroying our country with economic sanctions.

It is long past time that we Canadians and Canadian industry weened ourselves off the American teat. The US economy is a false bubble economy propped up by massive debt and the Fed printing dollars of declining value.

The only reason that the US dollar is held by most foreign nations reserve accounts is to pay for their oil imports. However, that could be changing in a very short while. The biggest threat Iran poses to the US in not some mythical future nuclear device, but its propose Iranian Oil Bourse, which is set to trade in Euros and not the Greenback. And it is not just Iran that is set to trade its oil in Euros instead of the Greenback, Venezuela is also opting to use Euros instead of the US$. Recently China and Venezuela signed a massive deal where China will pay for it Venezuelan oil import and its investments in Venezuela with you guessed it, the Euro, not the Greenback. I read an article a few months ago where Canada was considering demanding payment for its oil exports in Canadian dollars instead of US dollars due to the declining value of the Greenback. If these measure go through, and so far I see no reason that they will not, then the dominance of the US$ will be broken, plunging the US into a deep economic decline. Indeed as we speak, many nations such as China, Japan, Taiwan, Russia, Singapore and others with large US$ reserves are divesting themselves of their dollar holdings in favour of either the Euro or Gold. At the same time, nations such as China and Japan are becoming a bit leerly of acquiring futher US debt notes and instruments such a T-Bills. And without those loans from Asia, the US will not be able to pay for its various little adventures in the Middle East.

What does this mean for Canada and Canadian export into the US? Nothing good to be honest. It is said that if the US economy has a hick up, the Canadian economy comes down with a full blown case of the flu. This is why it is extremely important that Canadian business seek and secure other markets overseas for its goods and services, it would be suicidal to continue to rely on the US market alone. Many progress Canadian companies have done just that, moved from relying on US markets and developed overseas ones in its place. The soft wood industry has done just that in light of the bs traiffs thrown at them by the US. The US will always be an important market for Canada, however, it should not account for any more then 10 to 20 percent of our total exports.

This is why we need to be on the same page with the US economically, look to open new markets in Middle and South America, and stop allowing countries like China to close their markets to us. We need to take advantage of every sale we can make in the USA, while pursuing new markets. Most of all, we need to work with the US to force China to truly open its market to North American goods. If we do that and fashion a favorable trade situation with China, it won't matter what the US does economically--we'll have a much bigger trade partner.

My own business depends on cross border trade and I deal with Americans on a daily basis. Yes, individually they are a nice and even great people. However, as a society I find them sadly lacking in compassion, tolerance of others and understanding of cultural differances. However, they cannot help but be that way, after all they have been indoctrinated since birth to believe that the US is the end all and be all of peoples and nations. They really cannot comprehend that not everyone in the world wants to be like them or even like what they stand for. It goes against everything they have been taught since they learned to walk and talk.

I'll admit that the sense of civic pride in the USA is probably one foot the wrong side of hubris, but what is wrong with believing you live in the best country in the world?

Why shouldn't they believe that everyone wants to be like them? The world is becoming more and more Americanized every day--and not just by their military. People all over the world fight to get into the country for 'a better life'. Its gotten so bad people sneak in because they want it so badly. Their hubris fails them however when they seek to export their way of life as they forget that the ones in the countries they invade that wanted their way of life usually have already left to get it.

I don't think Americans are any less tolerant or compassionate than Canadians, today. Yes, historically they have been pretty intolerant, but today I don't see it. They are for equality today more than ever. A lot like me though, they do not wish to give one ioda more than equality. I cannot fault them for that.

[Nocrap]

Why shouldn't we defend ourselves? No reason at all not to if you ask me. Let me get this straight right off the bat, I am not a namby pamby limp wristed anti-military whatever, I served in the CAF for seven years and I am very very proud of that fact. Can you say the same thing?

I would dearly love to see some form of manditory National Service along the lines of the Swiss or Israeli models in Canada, where every abled-bodied man and WOMAN between the ages of 18 and 55 had to complete a complusory two stint in the regular Armed Forces for basic military and trade training followed by manditory enrollment into an active reserve after they completed their two years with the regs. This would give Canada a trained and equipped fighting force of between 10 to 20 million effectives, and that would be a suitable deterant to any would be agressor.

I would like to see such a force not because I am gung-ho and pro-war, but because I can see the need for such a deterant to the most blatant threat to Canadian Soveriegnty going, the US. There is no other direct threat to Canadian nationhood, apart from a few internal radical Albertan and Quebec elements, then invasion and annixation by the US. No other nation in the world has the logistical ability to invade let alone occupy a nation as large as or far away as Canada. Only the US has the location and ability to pull off such an endevour. As it stands, the CAF is too small and too ill-equipped to stop the US if it decides the time has finally come to take over our nation.

However, I very much doubt that you or I will ever see such a Canadian force in our lifetimes for a number of reasons:

1. The Canadian people would not support such a measure as complusory national service or manditory enrollment into active reserve units for all able bodied men and women till the age of 55.

2. No Canadian Government would ever support let alone propose such a measure, to do so would be instant death at the polls.

3. Canadian business would not support such a measure because it would require them to give their work force time off for military training purposes of at least two weeks per year. This could be off set by government compensation, however the loss of productivity would be prohibative.

4. I strongly doubt that the US would allow Canada to enact such a measure, mainly because it would be a direct threat to their current hold on Canada and Canadian politics. The powers that be in Washington are quite happy with the status quo vis a vis the strenght of the CAF. Just about large enough to support their (the US's) missions in various parts of the world, ie Afghanistan, and yet small enough to be brushed aside when the time came. The day Ottawa institutes a manditory military service model akin to the Swiss or Israelis is the day you will see US troops on the streets of Canadian cities and towns.

I disagree that we need a draft. I think a force that wants to be there will not only end up being better trained, but more motivated to complete whatever mission is at hand. However I do agree that Canadians would never support the idea as most are so far removed from war and having any clue what sacrifices have been made for their freedom. They simply don't appreciate that there's a price to be paid for freedom. As such, I also agree that politician would ever approach the issue because the second he suggested it he'd kiss his career goodbye. I don't believe the US would ever have to move their military in to take us over. We're so dependent on the teet of the USA that they could buy us for pennies on the dollar after destroying our country with economic sanctions.

It is long past time that we Canadians and Canadian industry weened ourselves off the American teat. The US economy is a false bubble economy propped up by massive debt and the Fed printing dollars of declining value.

The only reason that the US dollar is held by most foreign nations reserve accounts is to pay for their oil imports. However, that could be changing in a very short while. The biggest threat Iran poses to the US in not some mythical future nuclear device, but its propose Iranian Oil Bourse, which is set to trade in Euros and not the Greenback. And it is not just Iran that is set to trade its oil in Euros instead of the Greenback, Venezuela is also opting to use Euros instead of the US$. Recently China and Venezuela signed a massive deal where China will pay for it Venezuelan oil import and its investments in Venezuela with you guessed it, the Euro, not the Greenback. I read an article a few months ago where Canada was considering demanding payment for its oil exports in Canadian dollars instead of US dollars due to the declining value of the Greenback. If these measure go through, and so far I see no reason that they will not, then the dominance of the US$ will be broken, plunging the US into a deep economic decline. Indeed as we speak, many nations such as China, Japan, Taiwan, Russia, Singapore and others with large US$ reserves are divesting themselves of their dollar holdings in favour of either the Euro or Gold. At the same time, nations such as China and Japan are becoming a bit leerly of acquiring futher US debt notes and instruments such a T-Bills. And without those loans from Asia, the US will not be able to pay for its various little adventures in the Middle East.

What does this mean for Canada and Canadian export into the US? Nothing good to be honest. It is said that if the US economy has a hick up, the Canadian economy comes down with a full blown case of the flu. This is why it is extremely important that Canadian business seek and secure other markets overseas for its goods and services, it would be suicidal to continue to rely on the US market alone. Many progress Canadian companies have done just that, moved from relying on US markets and developed overseas ones in its place. The soft wood industry has done just that in light of the bs traiffs thrown at them by the US. The US will always be an important market for Canada, however, it should not account for any more then 10 to 20 percent of our total exports.

This is why we need to be on the same page with the US economically, look to open new markets in Middle and South America, and stop allowing countries like China to close their markets to us. We need to take advantage of every sale we can make in the USA, while pursuing new markets. Most of all, we need to work with the US to force China to truly open its market to North American goods. If we do that and fashion a favorable trade situation with China, it won't matter what the US does economically--we'll have a much bigger trade partner.

My own business depends on cross border trade and I deal with Americans on a daily basis. Yes, individually they are a nice and even great people. However, as a society I find them sadly lacking in compassion, tolerance of others and understanding of cultural differances. However, they cannot help but be that way, after all they have been indoctrinated since birth to believe that the US is the end all and be all of peoples and nations. They really cannot comprehend that not everyone in the world wants to be like them or even like what they stand for. It goes against everything they have been taught since they learned to walk and talk.

I'll admit that the sense of civic pride in the USA is probably one foot the wrong side of hubris, but what is wrong with believing you live in the best country in the world?

Why shouldn't they believe that everyone wants to be like them? The world is becoming more and more Americanized every day--and not just by their military. People all over the world fight to get into the country for 'a better life'. Its gotten so bad people sneak in because they want it so badly. Their hubris fails them however when they seek to export their way of life as they forget that the ones in the countries they invade that wanted their way of life usually have already left to get it.

I don't think Americans are any less tolerant or compassionate than Canadians, today. Yes, historically they have been pretty intolerant, but today I don't see it. They are for equality today more than ever. A lot like me though, they do not wish to give one ioda more than equality. I cannot fault them for that.

Just got a chance to read through the thread and found some very good comments (and maybe a few not so good) My thoughts are not so much anti-American as they are Pro-Canadian, and I think we really need to hold tight to our national identity as peacekeepers, no matter how fragile that may be.

I take comfort in the fact that if we were ever attacked, our US allies would be there to help us out, just as we did when the US was attacked (9/11) and went after Bin Laden in Afghanistan.

I support good trade relations with the US and other countries, but we need to be careful and not just pant after the US dollar (or Euro or Yen). Our goods are for sale but not our people or country.

I have relatives in Maine and Michigan (my grandmother was born in Brewer Maine), so do not hate Americans; just their foreign policy. When I visit the US I usually like the people I meet, but there is a definite cultural difference. They rarely mention the fact that Canadians hate Americans, because frankly they believe that the whole world does, and are not happy about it.

I support more money for our troops and believe that their equipment should be updated. However, I don't believe that they should have to support US agression simply because the US tells us it's OK. (again foreign policy). So long as the US continues it's rampage unchecked, the Canadian military will always be needed to clean up their mess. I just don't want to see us making it.

I would not support a draft and I think our census forms should be processed by a Canadian company.

Oh, and I am not a socialist.

[margrace]

Well a friend sits on the board of a very important American Co. and he is the Canadian rep for that country. However at a board meeting they spend a good deal of time making fun of local yocal Canadians calling them wet backs in sweat shirts. He doesn't rise to the bait and he is so good at his job that he is lent to other companies up here for assistance in his field of expertise.

He refused a transfer to the US to run one of the companies, does perfectly all right up here.

[Nocrap]

Well a friend sits on the board of a very important American Co. and he is the Canadian rep for that country. However at a board meeting they spend a good deal of time making fun of local yocal Canadians calling them wet backs in sweat shirts. He doesn't rise to the bait and he is so good at his job that he is lent to other companies up here for assistance in his field of expertise.

He refused a transfer to the US to run one of the companies, does perfectly all right up here.

Sadly it's been silly comments back and forth on both sides that detract from the real reason for so much anti-American sentiment of late, and not just by Canadians. We are fairly well behaved when it comes to other Bush-wackers.

Again, I don't hate Americans, but they do have my sympathy Not only for 9/11 but for being straddled with George W. Bush and his band of freaks. (Sorry, it had to be said) Let's face facts...2/3 of all Americans no longer have faith in his ability to run the country, so we can't blame all Americans. They were deceived.

[ceemes]

I disagree that we need a draft. I think a force that wants to be there will not only end up being better trained, but more motivated to complete whatever mission is at hand. However I do agree that Canadians would never support the idea as most are so far removed from war and having any clue what sacrifices have been made for their freedom. They simply don't appreciate that there's a price to be paid for freedom. As such, I also agree that politician would ever approach the issue because the second he suggested it he'd kiss his career goodbye.

Universal National Service that I envision is rather differnt then the draft system such as the US had. That system was basically a lottery where the winner or loser depending on your point of view and time frame got yanked out of civvie life and thrown into the military for a few years. Plus that system was rotten to the core, it was full of loops holes for the likes of Bush, Cheney and yes even Clinton to take advantage of, in other words, if you were rich or well connected, there were many ways of avoiding the system.

As I said, I would like to see a system in place based on either the Israeli or Swiss model, a defence force based mainly on the concept of the citizen soldier with a small but robust corp of life time career professionals. And it would have to be a strictly defensive force, activated only due to threat of invasion or actual overseas threats. Indeed, that was exactly the force that Canada sent overseas during WWII, any army of citizen soldiers for the most part. Check out the roster of units that landed at Normandy and fought and defeated some of the best the Germans had to offer, units such as the Royal Winnipeg Rifles, the Canadian Scottish, the Seaforth Highlanders, all reservist units made of hositilities only citizen soldiers.

And unlike the US based draft system of old which in my opinion was basically unfair forced servitude, at least during the post-WWII era; the Swiss and Israeli models would require every able-bodied man and woman to belong to an active reserve after they finish their one or two year full time training stint with the Regs as part of their responsibility and duty of holding citizenship, much like paying taxes or voting is. Basically, it would be the small price every citizen would be required to pay for the freedoms they enjoy. And it could work, after all the Swiss have had such a system in place for decades, and they have a robust democracy and enjoy the same if not more freedoms then we Canadians do.

As for Peace Keeping missions, that would still fall mainly on the shoulders of the Regular Forces however, like today, Reservist could volunteer for such duties.

I don't believe the US would ever have to move their military in to take us over. We're so dependent on the teet of the USA that they could buy us for pennies on the dollar after destroying our country with economic sanctions.

I would agreed with you thatt twenty or thirty years ago they would of been able to buy us for pennies on the dollar but not today. Their dollar has lost a lot a ground and their debt load is incredable and unattainable. And yes, we are still dependant on the Yankee teat, but that is slowly changing, the question is, will it change quickly enough. Canada's blessing and its curse is that we are blessed with an over abundance of two commodities that the US is currently starving for, oil and potable water. And it is those two important commodities that will play a key role in the current resourse wars we have just begun to see. If Canada does not kowtow to future US demands for those two commodities, then I would not be surprised to see US troops in our streets.

And is the world does switch from the Greenback to the Euro for its oil imports, then the US will suddenly find itself beyound bankrupt and will be forced to secure oil reserves closer to home, and that my friend means Canada. They would be forced to invade and secure our oil reserves because their dollar would be as useless to us as it would be to the rest of the world. Irans proposed Euro Oil Burse is a major threat to the US and the dominance its dollar holds in the world market. Other oil producers have stated they too would be very interested in a Euro based world oil market and many major importers like the idea as well. Recently China and Venezula penned a deal where China will buy Venezulian oil and pay for its investments there with the Euro. China has also or is in the process of cutting an identical deal with Iran and other oil producers.

So if the world turns enmass to the Euro over the Greenback, the value of the US dollar would become less then the Mexican peso at its worse. The US economy would collapse and its need for oil could not be meet by simply buying it anymore, so that leaves only one option, to secure a large domestic supply and the closest supply is in Canada.

This is why we need to be on the same page with the US economically, look to open new markets in Middle and South America, and stop allowing countries like China to close their markets to us. We need to take advantage of every sale we can make in the USA, while pursuing new markets. Most of all, we need to work with the US to force China to truly open its market to North American goods. If we do that and fashion a favorable trade situation with China, it won't matter what the US does economically--we'll have a much bigger trade partner.

I've dealt with the Chinese and Asian markets. It is not so much as they shut us out of them, but more of a case we do not produce much other then raw materials that they want. Plus sadly, when it comes to quality of consumer goods, our quality is sadly lacking. However, big ticket items such as commerical aircraft, high tech equipment and raw materials are doing a booming trade in both Asia and Europe.

We have to get off the same page as the US, did you know that over 50% of its GNP is accounted for from containerized imports alone? That on any given day, 50,000 containers of goods enter into the US from overseas and less then 10,000 are going out? The US is bleeding money, which is okay as long as the Greenback is the only currency that is allowed to pay for oil, the Fed can just keep on printing dollar bills. But the day that stops, and that day may be coming sooner rather then later, the US will find itself screw, chewed and tattoed. That is while we have to break our dependance on the US markets and dollar....otherwise Canada will fall as well.

I'll admit that the sense of civic pride in the USA is probably one foot the wrong side of hubris, but what is wrong with believing you live in the best country in the world?

Why shouldn't they believe that everyone wants to be like them? The world is becoming more and more Americanized every day--and not just by their military. People all over the world fight to get into the country for 'a better life'. Its gotten so bad people sneak in because they want it so badly. Their hubris fails them however when they seek to export their way of life as they forget that the ones in the countries they invade that wanted their way of life usually have already left to get it.

I don't think Americans are any less tolerant or compassionate than Canadians, today. Yes, historically they have been pretty intolerant, but today I don't see it. They are for equality today more than ever. A lot like me though, they do not wish to give one ioda more than equality. I cannot fault them for that.

I would of agreed with you about them becoming more tolerant, especially after the humiliation of Vietnam. However, post-Reagan and post-9/11, if anything they have become more intolerant then they were back in the 50's. And as for equity, I am sure the individual American believes that, but sadly the individual American in no longer in charge of his or her country.....it is now controlled by a very small elite.

[Hicksey]

I disagree that we need a draft. I think a force that wants to be there will not only end up being better trained, but more motivated to complete whatever mission is at hand. However I do agree that Canadians would never support the idea as most are so far removed from war and having any clue what sacrifices have been made for their freedom. They simply don't appreciate that there's a price to be paid for freedom. As such, I also agree that politician would ever approach the issue because the second he suggested it he'd kiss his career goodbye.

Universal National Service that I envision is rather differnt then the draft system such as the US had. That system was basically a lottery where the winner or loser depending on your point of view and time frame got yanked out of civvie life and thrown into the military for a few years. Plus that system was rotten to the core, it was full of loops holes for the likes of Bush, Cheney and yes even Clinton to take advantage of, in other words, if you were rich or well connected, there were many ways of avoiding the system.

As I said, I would like to see a system in place based on either the Israeli or Swiss model, a defence force based mainly on the concept of the citizen soldier with a small but robust corp of life time career professionals. And it would have to be a strictly defensive force, activated only due to threat of invasion or actual overseas threats. Indeed, that was exactly the force that Canada sent overseas during WWII, any army of citizen soldiers for the most part. Check out the roster of units that landed at Normandy and fought and defeated some of the best the Germans had to offer, units such as the Royal Winnipeg Rifles, the Canadian Scottish, the Seaforth Highlanders, all reservist units made of hositilities only citizen soldiers.

And unlike the US based draft system of old which in my opinion was basically unfair forced servitude, at least during the post-WWII era; the Swiss and Israeli models would require every able-bodied man and woman to belong to an active reserve after they finish their one or two year full time training stint with the Regs as part of their responsibility and duty of holding citizenship, much like paying taxes or voting is. Basically, it would be the small price every citizen would be required to pay for the freedoms they enjoy. And it could work, after all the Swiss have had such a system in place for decades, and they have a robust democracy and enjoy the same if not more freedoms then we Canadians do.

As for Peace Keeping missions, that would still fall mainly on the shoulders of the Regular Forces however, like today, Reservist could volunteer for such duties.

I don't believe the US would ever have to move their military in to take us over. We're so dependent on the teet of the USA that they could buy us for pennies on the dollar after destroying our country with economic sanctions.

I would agreed with you thatt twenty or thirty years ago they would of been able to buy us for pennies on the dollar but not today. Their dollar has lost a lot a ground and their debt load is incredable and unattainable. And yes, we are still dependant on the Yankee teat, but that is slowly changing, the question is, will it change quickly enough. Canada's blessing and its curse is that we are blessed with an over abundance of two commodities that the US is currently starving for, oil and potable water. And it is those two important commodities that will play a key role in the current resourse wars we have just begun to see. If Canada does not kowtow to future US demands for those two commodities, then I would not be surprised to see US troops in our streets.

And is the world does switch from the Greenback to the Euro for its oil imports, then the US will suddenly find itself beyound bankrupt and will be forced to secure oil reserves closer to home, and that my friend means Canada. They would be forced to invade and secure our oil reserves because their dollar would be as useless to us as it would be to the rest of the world. Irans proposed Euro Oil Burse is a major threat to the US and the dominance its dollar holds in the world market. Other oil producers have stated they too would be very interested in a Euro based world oil market and many major importers like the idea as well. Recently China and Venezula penned a deal where China will buy Venezulian oil and pay for its investments there with the Euro. China has also or is in the process of cutting an identical deal with Iran and other oil producers.

So if the world turns enmass to the Euro over the Greenback, the value of the US dollar would become less then the Mexican peso at its worse. The US economy would collapse and its need for oil could not be meet by simply buying it anymore, so that leaves only one option, to secure a large domestic supply and the closest supply is in Canada.

This is why we need to be on the same page with the US economically, look to open new markets in Middle and South America, and stop allowing countries like China to close their markets to us. We need to take advantage of every sale we can make in the USA, while pursuing new markets. Most of all, we need to work with the US to force China to truly open its market to North American goods. If we do that and fashion a favorable trade situation with China, it won't matter what the US does economically--we'll have a much bigger trade partner.

I've dealt with the Chinese and Asian markets. It is not so much as they shut us out of them, but more of a case we do not produce much other then raw materials that they want. Plus sadly, when it comes to quality of consumer goods, our quality is sadly lacking. However, big ticket items such as commerical aircraft, high tech equipment and raw materials are doing a booming trade in both Asia and Europe.

We have to get off the same page as the US, did you know that over 50% of its GNP is accounted for from containerized imports alone? That on any given day, 50,000 containers of goods enter into the US from overseas and less then 10,000 are going out? The US is bleeding money, which is okay as long as the Greenback is the only currency that is allowed to pay for oil, the Fed can just keep on printing dollar bills. But the day that stops, and that day may be coming sooner rather then later, the US will find itself screw, chewed and tattoed. That is while we have to break our dependance on the US markets and dollar....otherwise Canada will fall as well.

I'll admit that the sense of civic pride in the USA is probably one foot the wrong side of hubris, but what is wrong with believing you live in the best country in the world?

Why shouldn't they believe that everyone wants to be like them? The world is becoming more and more Americanized every day--and not just by their military. People all over the world fight to get into the country for 'a better life'. Its gotten so bad people sneak in because they want it so badly. Their hubris fails them however when they seek to export their way of life as they forget that the ones in the countries they invade that wanted their way of life usually have already left to get it.

I don't think Americans are any less tolerant or compassionate than Canadians, today. Yes, historically they have been pretty intolerant, but today I don't see it. They are for equality today more than ever. A lot like me though, they do not wish to give one ioda more than equality. I cannot fault them for that.

I would of agreed with you about them becoming more tolerant, especially after the humiliation of Vietnam. However, post-Reagan and post-9/11, if anything they have become more intolerant then they were back in the 50's. And as for equity, I am sure the individual American believes that, but sadly the individual American in no longer in charge of his or her country.....it is now controlled by a very small elite.

You make some very good points, but very quickly ...

The draft you speak of and the intentions of it are quite noble, but I still don't think it will work as not everyone is suited for military service. I know I'm not, but still admire them for putting their lives on the line.

I still don't think that the US will come at us militarily for oil. I think they know that Canada is respected sufficiently on the world stage that people would come to our aid pretty quick. However I still think that we will end up in servitude to the US for oil as well as many other resources as you suggest. It is my belief that the next world war will not be fought with men or nuclear weapons (though a cold war could play into things) but with money and resources. The next missle will hit economically and do much more damage than any cruise missle or possibly on par with a nuke. Because I like our way of life and it is very dependent on resources such as oil as well as a robust American dollar, I think it is wise for them to secure the middle east oil. Why do you think the majors in europe were opposed to Iraq? China, Russia, and France all had oil contracts with Iraq and they were worried that if the US took over the country they would be out that oil. As it ended up they were not, but they were forced to pay the going rate rather than the measely rates Saddam had settled for. I think we're the perfect first target for their war of economics so they can try, test and master it. I think you're bang on with the end result, we just differ in how it will be achieved.

Our country is run by a bunch of elites as well. As in the US they don't listen to us until the polls say that at least 60-70% of us either approve or disapprove. As for the post 9/11 intolerance, I think that was natural after a country was attacked. I think that a lot of it has waned in the years since given that no more attacks have occurred. I even think that because another attack hasn't happened that a lot of people are over confident that it won't happen again. I think the main reason it hasn't happened again is the vigilence of us and government. If we let our guard down and start thinking like we did before it will happen again--it will be a matter of how soon.