Klein Is Violating The Canada Health Act

[tml12]

Yeah, anyone who would throw a book at a young girl just deserves all the support in the world!

He wasn't throwing it at her you fool.

[Black Dog]

Yeah, anyone who would throw a book at a young girl just deserves all the support in the world!

He wasn't throwing it at her you fool.

Yeah: you must have got that confused with the time he threw money at the homeless people in a fit of drunken pique.

[geoffrey]

Back on topic...

My biggest issue with our current system is waiting lists. They are unacceptable.

There is such thing as an acceptable wait time, there should be no lines for any procedure. Like in Europe where is privately delivered. It's not hard to understand that waiting patients are wasted money, so people invest and build more clinics to take care of them.

This all while maintaining a single payer system that doesn't discriminate. Brilliant!

Too bad Klein is acting a little too aggressively and allowing two payer systems too.

[tml12]

Yeah, anyone who would throw a book at a young girl just deserves all the support in the world!

He wasn't throwing it at her you fool.

Yeah: you must have got that confused with the time he threw money at the homeless people in a fit of drunken pique.

In Alberta, there is a rumour that Klein can run this country half drunk better than the Liberal elite in Ottawa.

I second that.

[Biblio Bibuli]

Back on topic...

My biggest issue with our current system is waiting lists.

Waiting lists should be the least of your problem.

You see, for an elective surgery like a knee replacement ..... WHO CARES IF I HAVE TO HOP ON ONE LEG A LITTLE LONGER ... IT WON'T KILL ME. I will live.

For bypass surgery they generally check you into a hospital for a couple of days to ply you with medicines to alliviate the symptoms of your impending heart attack .... BUT AS LONG as you don't volunteer and tell them that you feel better after these treatments, they will keep you in and you'll have your operation within weeks. You will live.

But because many cancers are slow moving and expensive to find & treat it is not cost-effective under socialized medicine to look for it too aggressively. By waiting until the cancer is in it's later stages, preferably until it spreads and the tumors are the size of tennis balls, governments save a bundle because you see, nothing much can be done by then. They just send you home. TO DIE!

And I don't agree with that !!!! That's why I go to the U.S. once in a while and get thoroughly checked. And if EVER there is a sign of cancer, I'll just saunter back to a Canadian hospital with instructions on how I must be treated, with the word "TIMELY" underlined.

By gosh ... I think that could work!

[Biblio Bibuli]

If I were a rich man,

Ya ha deedle deedle, bubba bubba deedle deedle dum.

All day long I'd biddy biddy bum.

If I were a wealthy man.

I wouldn't have to depend on Medicare.

Ya ha deedle deedle, bubba bubba deedle deedle dum.

If I were a biddy biddy rich,

Yidle-diddle-didle-didle man.

I'd build a big tall house with PET and CT scan rooms by the dozen,

Right in the middle of the town.

A fine tin roof with real MRI machines below.

Oy, what a happy mood I'd be in.

Screaming at the doctors, day and night.

The most important physicians in town would come to fawn on me!

They would ask me to advise them,

Like a Solomon the Wise.

"If you please, BB..."

"Pardon me, BB..."

Posing problems that would cross a surgeons' eyes!

And it won't make one bit of difference if I am a hypochondriac.

When you're rich, they take you seriously!

If I were rich, I'd have the time that I lack

To sit in a CT scan doughnut day and night.

And I'd discuss medical books with the learned men, several hours every day.

That would be the sweetest thing of all.

If I were a rich man,

Ya ha deedle deedle, bubba bubba deedle deedle dum.

All day long I'd biddy biddy bum.

If I were a wealthy man.

I wouldn't have to wait in line to get my hypochondria treated.

Ya ha deedle deedle, bubba bubba deedle deedle dum.

If I were a biddy biddy rich,

Yidle-diddle-didle-didle man.

[geoffrey]

I haven't had a good laugh like that in a while.

[Concerned]

I for one am sure that we can not afford the system as it stands. The methods and structure of the healthcare system is such that all too much money goes to administration. During the last Election the Block made a ver important point that there are 4,000 more employees on the advertising and admin side of things then there were 10 years ago. And not one of these people do anything for frontline healthcare. Maybe if these people were let go and replaced by lest say 4,000 nurses, things may well improve. Also since the average Civil servant makes more then a nurse, we could probably hire even more. That fact alone would save many lives. The admin and paper work can take as much time as it needs to be done, as lives as not in the balance.

We need to have atleast 1000 new doctors per year to graduate and stay and practice in Canada, to really keep things going. That just is not being done. Many of the new doctors are specializing and few are becoming family doctors. This means that the doctor patient relationship is disappearing. That can also cost lives. Hospital administration should be cut back to minimum and nurses and doctors should be hired in place of them. There are many registered nurses that have long since given up the calling because they can make more as a private health consultant, or physical trainer etc. This is a weird world where those who help save lives get so little and those who really do nothing to save lives can make a better living.

Ralph Kliens methods while they break the healthcare act to some degree, seem to be the way things will have to eventually play out. I am 55 and I do have health problems. I probably would never be able to afford healthcare if it was like the USA system, and most healthcare providers for private insurance would not give me coverage. So, yes I probably am one of the users that make up for the more healthier ones. The cost of drugs is also very high and I am covered under a employers plan. But if things were different I could see me having to make choices of pills, food, or some of each. Do not get me wrong my family has a higher then average income. But that is the point, it takes just a small turn of fate and your life can be turned around. That is what I like about the public system. I also know that it can not go on for ever, so I try to look ahead and see what there will be for me later on. It is not the kind of thing you do half hearted.

I have seen first hand just what the hospitals get involved with, and they are buried by administration. That is wrong, sweet and simply wrong. You could take away most of that need by having smart health cards that would hold complete medical charts and prescriptions. That way every person would have this copy when ever they go to the hospital, and it would be updated when you leave. The same can be said for family doctors etc. With better tracking with out the admin costs. things would improve. But unfortunately in the end there are going to be those who will be able to pay money to get better service. It is going to happen sooner or later. The only other thing that might be is a community healthcare setup where the hospital is setup and supported by those in the community around it and the costs could be added to property tax bills etc. But then some communities would rise above others. No matter which way you cut it, paying money for care is coming.

There has got to be alot of money wasted on administration as we have one of the most expensive per capita systems in the world. I agree nurses are grossly underpaid. The system is really messed up for doctors too. Recently my girlfriend (doctor) moved to another city 400 kms away and had to take half her patient files with her as she couldn't find a home for them at another doctors office here. So how about living in North Vancouver and reporting that your family doctor is in Kamloops ??

Too often canadians look at the US for their fear based answer. Can we not think a little more globally then across the street? There are many systems out there rated better than ours, we are rated about 30th in the world. Why can't we look to another country and educate our population about the benefits of change to a system that is rated higher than ours and in fact costs less? Our government should be picking a model that is already in place, that is proven to work, and then driving our system towards it. Instead we are "muddling through" and getting all caught up in the Tommy Douglas anti - US crap.....

We have no have had no national leaders on this issue, they all prefer to ignore it for political reasons. It was the one thing I had hoped Harper could help with as he is not afraid of partial privatization, a system which has been proven to work in other countries.

We do not have universal health care if patients are not looked after and left to die on wait lists. My dad died of cancer because he was not treated promptly enough. Many others have and will continue to if we do not do something soon....

[Concerned]

Oh, and here's another example of how messed up things are with our med system....

Three years ago I tore my ACL ligament skiing. My doctor advised me about 1-2 year waiting period to have it fixed...or try Dr. Day, for $4,000 he'll fix it for you in his private clinic.

Ok, so obviously I don't want to hobble around for 1-2 years, I take the 4K hit.

Ironically, the clinic is not considered to be legal.....however I was able to write off the bill on my tax returns. Can anybody make sense out of that ???

Our system pretends to be public, and lets private enterprise run free as they can't do a thing about it, and won't because if they challenge it in court, the courts just may favour the private clinics and then they have an ugly precedent to deal with....well those cases are becoming more and more frequent and finally we have a situation that is going to be impossible to continue to ignore. Thank god for that.

[Hydraboss]

Uhmmmm....excuse me. Nurses underpaid? Really? Does anyone here actually know what a nurse makes?

But I digress. Yes, the administration in hospitals is ridiculously top heavy. But you have to have medical staff to hire in the first place. Where, exactly, would you propose that we get them? This is the critical flaw with Captain Klein.

[Hydraboss]

Newsflash for anyone that thinks US health care is expensive, and Canada's is one payer.

You mean one taxpayer .

Health benefits through my wife's employer..........$144 per month

Health benefits through my employer...................$126 per month

Health benefits through my province....................$ 74 per month

56% (or so) of my tax dollars to health................$Freakinridiculousamount

Total.................................................................$344 + Freakinridiculousamount

Healthcare based on a one payer system.............Priceless

One payer my ass.

[geoffrey]

Hyrda,

A one-payer, privately delivered European style system would cure that. The efficient clinics stick around the inefficent ones can't make money and fall off. We all save money.

Why aren't we there yet? No waiting lists in that system by the way.

[Briteyes]

I have to disagree with the cost of coverage in the U.S.A not being very expensive here is an article that states clearly the average cost for health insurance for a family of 4 in the U.S.A is $829 a month and that was in 2004 that is as much as my mortgage. Also there are people dieing with health insurance in the U.S.A because they are being treated then out of the blue there health care provider just cuts off the coverage so they are left paying 829.00 a month and getting no care.

http://www.nchc.org/facts/cost.shtml

[geoffrey]

I have to disagree with the cost of coverage in the U.S.A not being very expensive here is an article that states clearly the average cost for health insurance for a family of 4 in the U.S.A is $829 a month and that was in 2004 that is as much as my mortgage. Also there are people dieing with health insurance in the U.S.A because they are being treated then out of the blue there health care provider just cuts off the coverage so they are left paying 829.00 a month and getting no care.

http://www.nchc.org/facts/cost.shtml

$829 a month is considerably less than what you pay in Canada. Add in more than half your income tax bill too. And what employers pay. And you get way more care and higher quality in the US gaurnteed.

[fixer1]

Uhmmmm....excuse me. Nurses underpaid? Really? Does anyone here actually know what a nurse makes?

But I digress. Yes, the administration in hospitals is ridiculously top heavy. But you have to have medical staff to hire in the first place. Where, exactly, would you propose that we get them? This is the critical flaw with Captain Klein.

Yes I do know what nurse's make and it is 35-40 thousand per year. They have as long a training period as getting a BA degree and many have a BA. in nursing. They work extended shifts and are expected to do all the dirtiest of work. I would figure a good nurse should be making around $55,000 to $60,000 per year, with some nursing specialists it would be $75+ per year. Nurse's aids are presently paid below $30K per year.

If a nurse instead spent the same education to become a pharmacist they would make 3-4 times what they do now, and have better shifts.

[Bryan]

$829 a month is considerably less than what you pay in Canada. Add in more than half your income tax bill too. And what employers pay. And you get way more care and higher quality in the US gaurnteed.

I don't even pay that much in total deductions from my pay including all taxes, CPP, EI, and private supplemental insurance for my whole family.

[Hydraboss]

Uhmmmm....excuse me. Nurses underpaid? Really? Does anyone here actually know what a nurse makes?

But I digress. Yes, the administration in hospitals is ridiculously top heavy. But you have to have medical staff to hire in the first place. Where, exactly, would you propose that we get them? This is the critical flaw with Captain Klein.

Yes I do know what nurse's make and it is 35-40 thousand per year. They have as long a training period as getting a BA degree and many have a BA. in nursing. They work extended shifts and are expected to do all the dirtiest of work. I would figure a good nurse should be making around $55,000 to $60,000 per year, with some nursing specialists it would be $75+ per year. Nurse's aids are presently paid below $30K per year.

If a nurse instead spent the same education to become a pharmacist they would make 3-4 times what they do now, and have better shifts.

You are not even in the ballpark....not even in the city that has the ballpark.

Alberta RN wages average...AVERAGE...$32.00/HOUR. Full time nurses (and there is more than enough full time positions available in this country) make approximately $75-80,000 per year.

Go on...ask me how I know.

(some people on this forum already KNOW how)

[Hydraboss]

Uhmmmm....excuse me. Nurses underpaid? Really? Does anyone here actually know what a nurse makes?

But I digress. Yes, the administration in hospitals is ridiculously top heavy. But you have to have medical staff to hire in the first place. Where, exactly, would you propose that we get them? This is the critical flaw with Captain Klein.

Yes I do know what nurse's make and it is 35-40 thousand per year. They have as long a training period as getting a BA degree and many have a BA. in nursing. They work extended shifts and are expected to do all the dirtiest of work. I would figure a good nurse should be making around $55,000 to $60,000 per year, with some nursing specialists it would be $75+ per year. Nurse's aids are presently paid below $30K per year.

If a nurse instead spent the same education to become a pharmacist they would make 3-4 times what they do now, and have better shifts.

AND...nurses do NOT require a degree. A degree is only required if they want to assume a supervisory position (charge nurse, unit manager, resource nurse, etc...). RN's DO NOT do the "dirtiest of work", that is what LPN's are for (and it's Licensed Practical Nurse, not Nurses Aid anymore).

Now, if an RN was a first year new-grad, and accepted a casual position (because she didn't WANT a 0.6, 0.8 or full time) and worked in a small community hospital where they only worked eight hour shifts (instead of the normal 12's) she could CONCEIVABLY make under $50k per year...but not likely.

[fixer1]

Uhmmmm....excuse me. Nurses underpaid? Really? Does anyone here actually know what a nurse makes?

But I digress. Yes, the administration in hospitals is ridiculously top heavy. But you have to have medical staff to hire in the first place. Where, exactly, would you propose that we get them? This is the critical flaw with Captain Klein.

Yes I do know what nurse's make and it is 35-40 thousand per year. They have as long a training period as getting a BA degree and many have a BA. in nursing. They work extended shifts and are expected to do all the dirtiest of work. I would figure a good nurse should be making around $55,000 to $60,000 per year, with some nursing specialists it would be $75+ per year. Nurse's aids are presently paid below $30K per year.

If a nurse instead spent the same education to become a pharmacist they would make 3-4 times what they do now, and have better shifts.

AND...nurses do NOT require a degree. A degree is only required if they want to assume a supervisory position (charge nurse, unit manager, resource nurse, etc...). RN's DO NOT do the "dirtiest of work", that is what LPN's are for (and it's Licensed Practical Nurse, not Nurses Aid anymore).

Now, if an RN was a first year new-grad, and accepted a casual position (because she didn't WANT a 0.6, 0.8 or full time) and worked in a small community hospital where they only worked eight hour shifts (instead of the normal 12's) she could CONCEIVABLY make under $50k per year...but not likely.

Hydraboss you need to find real Canadian statistics because CCHSA hires nurses who have given up hope and pays them $50k per year asz health consultants. They could hire every Registered nurse there is as they are being paid 35-40K per year. Surgical nurses will get 50-60 k per year. I have made many a joke that a Mechanic working for the Hydro or government gets a higher wage thena nurse. Also nurses need 3 yera college diploma and 2 year training. or 4 year university degree and 1 year training. There are nurses who have masters degrees that make in the area you said but that is it.

[fixer1]

Also since you think that nurses make so much why is it that many have gone to the USA and made the numbers I said they should make when exchange is figured in. You may know some nurse who make what you say but very few. A registered nurse must complete her college diploma and train before she is licensed to practice. Yes They have changed the name for RNA but the position is the same. RNA's and lesser in the field make more outside in private healthcare jobs outside the hospitals.

If nurse in Alberta can make that kind of money I can easily send them a few hundred willing people.

[Hydraboss]

Fixer, my wife is a registered nurse with a two year diploma from Red Deer college in Alberta. Most of her friends are nurses, and the issue of wages has come up many times (they being union and me being normal )

I know of what I speak. I know what my wife makes, and I know what her friends make. My numbers do not come from some web link, they come from facts, facts I am privy to. I don't know where you are, but there are no nurses making what you state they make unless it is their choice.

Many of the RN's we know have gone to the states, usually for a period of three months to a year. That way they can take a leave of absence from their position instead of quitting. The US headhunters pay them well, pay their accomodations, and the nurses get to travel. Most of the ones we know go to Texas, Colorado and Hawaii.

And as for your "facts" about the required training......BS.

Go to www.cha.ca (Capital Health Alberta, includes the University of Alberta and the Stollery Children's Hospital where my wife works). They are hiring new grads with a two year diploma, as is every single province in the country. Degrees are preferred, but not mandatory. And there is no "internship" in nursing, there is only preceptorship. You preceptor while you are in school, and then again when you first start at your nursing position. Similar to a green-hand mentoring program.

Unfortunately for you, your facts are all bullshit. Check any nursing union website and read their collective agreement; the true facts are laid out for all to see, including earnings schedules. Try the AARN or UNA in Alberta.

p.s. - we also lived in south Vancouver, where my wife worked as an RN as well. And guess what.....same thing.

Nice try.

[Spike22]

Well done Ralphy boy. Bout time someone rattled the tree. I don;t give a hoot what he does as long as it improves access to service.

[Hydraboss]

Well done Ralphy boy. Bout time someone rattled the tree. I don;t give a hoot what he does as long as it improves access to service.

I agree 100% Spike. He did it in '93, and it's time he did it again. Anyone who disputes "violations of this" and "violations of that" has never sat in an emergency ward for four hours with an extremely sick two-year old in tears. Do that, and then tell me that you give a damn about "universal, one-payer health care".

[geoffrey]

Well done Ralphy boy. Bout time someone rattled the tree. I don;t give a hoot what he does as long as it improves access to service.

I agree 100% Spike. He did it in '93, and it's time he did it again. Anyone who disputes "violations of this" and "violations of that" has never sat in an emergency ward for four hours with an extremely sick two-year old in tears. Do that, and then tell me that you give a damn about "universal, one-payer health care".

Agreed. Anything to get me to a doc in reasonable time. I'm sick of those so blinded by the ghost of Tommy Douglas to say that our system is 'the greatest in the world' and 'without fault'. It's broken beyond repair, costs are out of control... lets shoot the elephant before it tramples our country.

At the end of the day, the government has completely failed in providing health services. Any waiting list is a violation of my rights. Many European countries have public insurance and do not wait for services. Time to let someone else try.