Top Job For Harper

[FTA Lawyer]

FTA Lawyer:

I'm not saying feel sorry for prisoners...I'm quite content with the notion of doing the time if you do the crime. What I'm saying is that many people have a totally screwed-up media-driven view of what it is like to be in prison.

What i was trying to say here is that if ONE prisoner is being treated the way our media has pionted out then that is "one" to many, are you denying that thier are no Prisoners in Canada being treated this way.

You have no idea what it does to a man to be held against his will and to have his every movement dictated to him. Even if you were in a nice hotel room with cable t.v. you'd be surprised how bad that can be when some uneducated thug gets to randomly come in and ransack the place, strip-search you forcibly, tell you where to go, when to do it, how to do it, with whom you can do it etc. Add to this the constant watching over your shoulder for other inmates and all the Seinfeld in the world won't make you like prison

If your trying to provoke feelings of sympathy for these convicts, your talking to the wrong guy. Although i've never been to prison ( except the kingston riots) , i do know what it is like to have your freedom severly curtailed.

I served in Kubul Afgan in the early stages when the camp was just being built. we slept in Recce tents (small pup tents 2 to 3 men per, smaller than your 6x8 cell), with an air matress on the ground, No showers for days sometimes a week, in temps over 50, The men and women that serve our country got along just fine, there were no stabbings, beatings or bending over your roommate. We acted like civilized people in conditions that are much worst than any maxium security prison here in Canada.

Your protrayal of the prison gaurds as uneducated thugs is a little much. Perhaps a couple days in thier shoes would change your tune. Random inspections are done for a reason, to ensure convicts obey the rules that have been set out by the courts. IE no drugs, wpns, etc. If the convicts were as sweet as you prtray them then why would there be a need for searchs.

As for strip searchs there must be a cause to order a search. And if there is no cause then you as a lawyer should do something about it.

Bottom line is, having cable and a dildo hardly equates to being "treated better" than alot of law-abiding citizens...its simply not true. Prison f-ing sucks (as it should) despite what those of you who have never set foot inside one might think.

NO the bottom line is this, if our tax dollars are being spent on luxery items such as cable,dildos, etc, those tax dollars would be bettrer spent on additional homeless shelters, tax breaks for low income earners, basically anything that would improve the lives of those that have chosen to obey the law.

And by the way, you're really out of touch if you think more than one in 10,000 criminals ever sits down and weighs the consequences of his actions before committing a crime. That's why the SCC in Proulx took note of the research that tells us prison, no matter how "tough", really doesn't work as a method of deterrence for future situations.

Bullshit, my 3 year son knows what is right and wrong, he knows exactly what he can do or what he can not. and he knows the punishment. So you are telling me that an adult does not already know the consequences, that they don't know right from wrong.

Again bullshit, tell the SCC to do thier research in a military prison, ask them how many reoffenders they get. not to many. Ask anyone that has done time in a military prison would they do the crime again. These soldiers that come back to thier units from prison are model soldiers. Why is that.

To sum-up i understand your piont, prison is not a fun place to be. But those convicts have chosen thier plight in life ,well most have, and now there are paying the consquences. what concerns me is that there are Canadians here in Canada struggling to make ends meet ,to feed thier families,put a roof over thier heads etc and doing all this and still obeying the law.

And these convicts have a roof over thier heads are feed 3 square meals a day, have access to books, tv, schooling, medical and mental care. all this on our tax dollar.

How many times do I need to say...I'm not saying feel sorry for prisoners??????? That should hopefully answer your question about whether or not I am trying to "provoke feelings of sympathy for...convicts".

I won't deny that there are some prisoners getting special treatment in Canada, and I won't criticize your opinion that one such instance is one too many...the point I keep making is simply that you cannot easily quantify what it means to have no freedom.

Your example of being in Afghanistan means you understand better than most how important physical and mental freedom is, but it is not quite the same as the "loss of freedom" that I am talking about. I am particularly proud of our military, and I don't for a minute minimize your comments about how admirably our troops perform in deplorable conditions...and I absolutely agree that the conditions you describe are a thousand times worse than the physical conditions any inmate will ever see in Canada.

BUT...performing the duties of your chosen career in a voluntary military with a professional team of other civilized members doing the same thing as you is not the same as being physically and forcibly confined to an institution with a bunch of others who are there because they can't coexist in normalcy either.

Again, don't feel sorry for these inmates, but I have always hated it when people try to compare prison scenarios to military ones because it is extremely offensive to the soldiers...who by and large are some of the best citizens we have...so why would someone think that they wouldn't demonstrate excellent ability to endure tough conditions?...and why would someone expect that prisoners would ever be able to demonstrate the same type of integrity?

Anyway...moving on...

My father-in-law is a deputy warden of a Federal Penetentiary with 30 years as a corrections officer...I do know a bit about what its like to be in the shoes of a guard. I fully understand the need for random searches and other various losses of rights that inmates face...I'M NOT ARGUING AGAINST SUCH THINGS!! I am again just pointing out the side of prison life that no-one else, particularly in the media, cares to make mention of.

As to "cause" for strip searches...in theory you are right, but the cause of security and protection of life is omnipresent inside a prison, and so too is the ability to conduct strip-searches. If you don't believe me, the regulations that tell guards what the boundaries are for Alberta provincial jails read in part as follows:

10(1) An inmate may be searched on admission to an institution and at any other times as the Director may require.

(2) A search may be conducted in any manner as the Director may direct.

Pretty broad latitude.

As far as recidivism...maybe the SCC should look at some military prison research...don't really have any insight to add on this point.

Thankfully, your final paragraph underscores the point I am making about loss of freedom. In spite of the 3 squares a day and books and warm beds etc. that prison offers, people virtually always choose the struggle to make ends meet in freedom over getting their needs met while in custody.

FTA

[Army Guy]

FTA Lawyer:

How many times do I need to say...I'm not saying feel sorry for prisoners??????? That should hopefully answer your question about whether or not I am trying to "provoke feelings of sympathy for...convicts

Sorry i must have misunderstood the message that you were trying to send. but by continuely telling me how hard life is in prison that is what i thought you were trying to do, provoke sympathy.

You have no idea what it does to a man to be held against his will and to have his every movement dictated to him. Even if you were in a nice hotel room with cable t.v. you'd be surprised how bad that can be when some uneducated thug gets to randomly come in and ransack the place, strip-search you forcibly, tell you where to go, when to do it, how to do it, with whom you can do it etc. Add to this the constant watching over your shoulder for other inmates and all the Seinfeld in the world won't make you like prison

I won't deny that there are some prisoners getting special treatment in Canada, and I won't criticize your opinion that one such instance is one too many...the point I keep making is simply that you cannot easily quantify what it means to have no freedom.

No, you can't easily quantify it or explain it in a few words. one has to live it or live with it, to fully understand it. and i applaud you in trying to do just that in your post. However what struck a cord with me was how some of your posts sounded like you were trying to provoke sympathy for these Men and women in prison. The same people who by thier own choose have had thier freedoms taken away "well some of them of thier freedoms".

My 6 month tour in Afgan i was exposed to some of the most brutal justice there is and took alittle offense when you said how hard our convicts got it. Perhaps i overreacted, or perhaps our convicts really don't know just how good they got it.

BUT...performing the duties of your chosen career in a voluntary military with a professional team of other civilized members doing the same thing as you is not the same as being physically and forcibly confined to an institution with a bunch of others who are there because they can't coexist in normalcy either.

This is where i fail to understand your piont. In todays world ,here in Canada i find it hard to believe that a person has to turn to a life of crime to survive, if thats the case then each person makes a chioce to comit crimes. knowing full well that those crimes may in fact lead to serving prison terms. which leads me to think that A) going to prison and losing a few of thier freedoms is not a deterant, and the punishment does not fit the crime.

The only thing that seems to scare them is the fact that they will be locked up with others of the same ilk or worse. which again proves that our justice system may not be working or is tough enough.

My father-in-law is a deputy warden of a Federal Penetentiary with 30 years as a corrections officer...I do know a bit about what its like to be in the shoes of a guard. I fully understand the need for random searches and other various losses of rights that inmates face...I'M NOT ARGUING AGAINST SUCH THINGS!! I am again just pointing out the side of prison life that no-one else, particularly in the media, cares to make mention of.

you'd be surprised how bad that can be when some uneducated thug gets to randomly come in and ransack the place, strip-search you forcibly, tell you where to go, when to do it, how to do it, with whom you can do it etc. Add to this the constant watching over your shoulder for other inmates and all the Seinfeld in the world won't make you like prison.

Again when i read the above quote i get the feeling that your pro convict and anti corrections officer. I to have a father inlaw who i describe in a few 4 letter words.

Ill sum up ,I will agree with you, life is hard in prison for alot of prisoners. but then again it's supposed to be if it was'nt we'd all be in there.

Perhaps with our new gov't things will change for the better for us law bidding citizens anyway.

Thank you for the kind words about our countries military.

[Spike22]

FTA the prison's being rough hahahaha join the infantry. Prisons are not bad. The people in it are not the nicest to say the least but the conditions hahaha our old submarine's had no privacy - 2 to a bunk you get out and another gets in. They only do this in the prisons when they want some cuddle time(yeck).

A for being a defence lawyer you would think it is rough and your opposition thinks otherwise.

[geoffrey]

FTA the prison's being rough hahahaha join the infantry. Prisons are not bad. The people in it are not the nicest to say the least but the conditions hahaha our old submarine's had no privacy - 2 to a bunk you get out and another gets in. They only do this in the prisons when they want some cuddle time(yeck).

A for being a defence lawyer you would think it is rough and your opposition thinks otherwise.

It's the lack of freedom spike thats the big deal. If I locked you up in a room with every admenity, I give it a week before your thoughts on prision change. Think about it, I used to share your opinion until I gave it some real thought.

The conditions in a prision have to be somewhat peaceful for the safety of our prision wardens.

I agree that forced military service, where you don't get freedom, would be a good punishment. But, thats not fair to the professional members of our armed services to just impose criminals upon them. These are moral and ethical people and to throw scum in their midst would be very insulting to them.

The defense lawyer comment isn't a fair attack on FTA. Someone has to defend criminals, due process and the such still exist. It would take quite a person to defend someone that they would even know is guilty, and make sure that they are treated fairly in the justice system. I don't agree with alot of our laws, and their lax punishments. But the law is there for reason, right on to FTA for his work. He probably has alot more first hand experience with prision conditions and what it does to people than you (unless your in contact with prision folks??). I would think prosecuters (spelling?? I'm tired) think similiar thoughts about prisions as well.

[FTA Lawyer]

geoffrey,

Thank you for getting my point and trying to explain to others what I am actually saying!

Army Guy,

We do not really disagree...we've just crossed wires somehow. What we both agree on is:

1) Prison is harsh for most prisoners;

2) It is supposed to be;

3) It's okay that it's harsh, and maybe there should be even less privileges;

geoffrey's summary of my point hopefully clears things up...people often go around spouting how good prison life is because of privileges like cable t.v., free libraries and gyms etc. and all I am saying is that no matter how many privileges one has, if they have no freedom, life isn't so grand...and yes, it's not supposed to be if you've committed a crime...I don't advocate changing that...just trying to make sure people like Spike22 get the alternative viewpoint.

Spike 22,

99.9% of Crown Prosecutors (figure of speech...no I don't have actual stats) have never seen the inside of a prison either, so citing the viewpoint of my "opposition" really only helps to demonstrate my point.

All I can say is that knowing what I know about life on the inside, there is no amount of "privileges" great enough to ever convince me that I'd be better off in jail than out...and in my opinion, those who have seen both sides of the coin will almost unanimously agree with me.

FTA

[Hollus]

FTALawer:

I certianly do not want to evoke sympathy for the criminals either. Im interested what your opinion is on how to lower recidivism rates?

I think its obvious the individual needs to make the decision for change, but if we're going to throw them into hell we've got to quit fooling ourselves into thinking they can be released in 5-10 years. I think its a little unrealistic to think we can lock up every violent offender for life. If we really want to rehabilitate people should'nt we to do somthing about the 'brick to the head' environment inside the jails. I know I sound like a bleeding hart, but im more concerned about reoffenses and how our prisons can best prevent them. How can we expect a violent person to change if we cant even set-forth civil behavior in detention.

[Army Guy]

I think we would all agree that our entire justice system needs to be rebuilt completely. from our laws and punshiment scales to how our prison system interns these convicts.

The military system has been proven to work extremily well in providing a deterent for repeat offenses,and a well strutured prison enviroment where there are no stabbings or beatings or other incidents. And it may be worth a look into solving some of the problems we have in our federal prisons.

It should be noted that DND dentention center normally does not hold any military prisoners that have commited Federal crimes, unless they are serving thier military portion of thier sentence first, once completed they are then shipped to federal prison. Out of 55,000 military members currently serving our country there may be only 30 to 40 serving in dentention, even that number is on the high side.

Below is a look into a military prison. His daily routine.

Daily Routine Hours

- Reveille 0600

- Shave, scrub rooms and barracks gen- 0600-0730 , clean equipment and layout kit

- Breakfast 0730-0800

- Training Period 0800-1150

- Wash up, dinner 1200-1300

- Training Period 1300-1650

- Wash up, supper 1700-1800

- Shower 1800-1830

- Wash clothes, scrub equipment and 1830-1945 perform general tasks

- Incidental parades and letter writing 1945-2045

- Make up beds 2045-2100

- Lights out 2100

Sunday Routine Hours

- Reveille 0630

- Shave, scrub rooms, and lay out kits 0630-0730

- Breakfast 0730-0800

- Divine Service, as ordered 0800-1000

- Exercise period 1000-1100

- Dinner 1200-1300

- Study, write letters, receive visitors 1300-1600

- Exercise period 1600-1630

- Supper 1645-1800

- Privileges period (as applicable) 1800-2045

- Make up beds 2045-2100

- Lights out 2100

Prison life is based on a progressive approach.

.05 - PROGRESSIVE STAGES

(1) The punishment of detention, and the punishment of imprisonment when served in a service prison or detention barrack, shall be divided into two stages.

(2) The first stage shall commence on the day an inmate is sentenced and shall continue until he has earned promotion by good conduct to the second stage, but shall not be less than fourteen days.

(3) During the first stage, no inmate shall be entitled to:

(a) a communication period;

( a smoking period; or

© visitors, other than official visitors mentioned in article 4.16.

(4) When an inmate is promoted to the second stage he shall, in accordance with these regulations:

(a) be entitled to the prescribed privileges; and

( commence to earn remission of punishment.

PRIVELEGES DURING SECOND STAGE

During the second stage, an inmate shall be entitled to:

(a) communicate with other inmates for a maximum period of thirty minutes each day at the times and under the conditions prescribed by the commandant;

( smoke cigarettes at the times and under the conditions prescribed by the commandant, provided that the aggregate smoking time in any one day does not exceed thirty minutes;

© the use of the library; and

(d) visitors.

Everything a prisoner does is based on a seris of marks to which go's to earning him "timed served" there no time off for good behavior, Fail to earn enough pionts for the day and that day does not count towards your sentence as time served.

SYSTEM OF MARKS

(1) The system of marks set out in this article shall be used to assess an inmate's conduct for the purpose of:

(a) promoting him from the first stage to the second stage; and

( determining the portion of his punishment that may be remitted.

(2) Except when he is under penalty an inmate shall be entitled to earn a maximum of eight marks each day for his conduct. In awarding these marks, attention shall be paid to the inmate's industry and attention during

training, his dress and department, and Ws sense of discipline.

(3) Unless the commandant orders otherwise, an inmate shall receive eight marks for each day:

(a) between the date of imposition of the punishment and the date of his admission;

( on which Sunday routine applies;

© spent while on transfer from a service prison or detention barrack to another place of incarceration; and

(d) spent in hospital, or other place for the reception of sick persons.

(4) For each day not mentioned in (3) of this article, the senior non-commissioned member normally shall award the imate's marks. He may, after consultation with the senior guard on each duty shift, award six,

seven, or eight marks to an inmate. If the senior non-commissioned member considers that the inmate is entitled to less than six marks, the commandant shall, in the presence of the inmate, award an appropriate mark.

(5) No inmate shall be promoted from the first stage to the second stage until he has earned 112 marks. Marks earned for promotion to the second stage shall not count for remission of punishment.

(6) Marks awarded shall be recorded daily in the Register of Marks

MISBEHAVIOUR

An inmate who offends in any way against good order and discipline commits an act of misbehaviour. Notwithstanding the generality of the foregoing, misbehaviour of an inmate includes:

(a) disrespect to any member of the staff, visitor, or other person;

( idleness, carelessness, negligence, or refusal to work;

© irreverent behaviour at Divine Service;

(d) use of blasphemous or other improper language;

(e) indecency in language, act, or gesture;

(f) communication or attempts at communication with another inmate or person without authority;

(g) singing, whistling, or any unnecessary noise or disturbance;

(h) leaving his place of duty or any room without authority;

(i) wilful disfiguration of or damage to, or attempts at dis-figuration of or damage to, any part of the service prison or detention barrack, or any articles to which he may have access;

(j) nuisance or an attempt to commit nuisance;

(k) possession of any article without authority;

(l) conveyance to or reception from or an attempt to convey to or receive from any person any article without authority; or

(m) inattention whilst performing any duty or undergoing training.

- CORRECTIVE MEASURES

The following corrective measures may be applied in respect of Misbehaviour by an inmate:

(a) close confinement;

( No. 1 Diet;

© No. 2 Diet;

(d) loss of privileges; and

(e) forfeiture of marks earned for remission.

6.12 - CLOSE CONFINEMENT

1) When the corrective measure of close confinement is applied to an inmate, he shall be:

(a) confined in the room or cell set apart for that purpose;

( deprived of all privileges;

© allowed to exercise for two periods of thirty minutes each day; and

(d) entitled to no mark for conduct.

2) No inmate shall undergo the corrective measure of close confinement without the concurrence of the medical officer.

No.l Diet when applied for a period of three days or less shall consist of fourteen ounces of bread a day and unrestricted quantities of water.

NO. 2 DIET

(1) No. 2 Diet when applied for a period of twenty-one days or less shall consist of;

(a) for breakfast, seven ounces of bread and unrestricted quantities of water,

( for dinner,

(i) porridge containing two ounces of oatmeal,

(ii) two ounces of peas or beans,

(iii) eight ounces of potatoes,

(iv) the normal flavouring of salt, and

Above is mixed together in one bowl.

(v) unrestricted quantities of water, and

© for supper, seven ounces of bread and unrestricted quantities of water.

Above are what our military prisoners are subject to today, Military prisoners have Two chioces conform and serve their time with good conduct, or fight the system and remain in custody until you see the errors of your way.

There is no automactically getting time off for good behavior, but earning each day that counts towards your sentence.

Prisoners that have been released after serving thier time have been quoted as being model soldiers. So there is merit to this system.

[geoffrey]

Interesting suggestions Army Guy.

I can see that being more effective than a couple rounds of golf in the afternoon. Or in the maximum security areas just lifting weights and getting in better shape to commit crimes when you get out.