Poverty - Reasons And Solutions

[FastNed]

KK, "Tempting", surely you jest - the motivating factors you mention, cheap labor and so for, are exactly what exist today. And no one is tempted; not only is the Rule of Law absent, the labor force is cheap but uneducated and illiterate and while there are some natural resources, the infrastructure to exploit them is non-existent. The thought that the UN could sponsor such a program would be funny if it were not a sick joke. Corruption is endemic in the UN and its organizations and it has been hijacked by Third World Nations.

Rather than the Rule of Law, what exists today in Africa is the rule of the jungle. You have so-called Nations run by thieves, they plunder their own countries and either alone or with others join in plunder parties to raid and rape their neighbors. The UN and ECOWAS will not solve Liberia's problems as their leadership are also thieves and plunderers and are a major part of the problem, most certainly not part of the solution.

A case could be made that occupation of Liberia could serve America's strategic interests but we would have to impose, in effect, a colonial occupation and make Liberia our military base for West Africa. We are talking a multi-generation occupation, establishment of a civil service, construction of an infrastructure beginning from just about zero, and, in brief, creating a civilized nation. It would be a thankless job, but that's no big deal since no one says "Thank You" to Americans anyway no matter what they accomplish but I am unconvinced that the terrorist potential in Africa justifies such an investment, at least not in the immediate future.

The American vision for and of America is not that of an Imperial Power. We refuse to be the policeman for the world - The Sheriff has left the building! If, as and when a problem is so substantial that those who are so vocal about it are willing to lead the way, we are willing to contribute to the effort. When those who cry about the ills of the world demonstrate that they are willing to put themselves at the head of the line, then we will join with them. But we are more than tired of listening to those who would never put their money where their mouth is!

[KrustyKidd]

Hi Ned. I never said it would be painless and non violent. That is why a real military is required. You move in with the army and set up factories, hospitals, governments and take out what you can. In return you give stability and a form of government for the people to work with.

Sure cheap labor exists today but who can get beyond the graft, corruption and warlords? If it isn't profitable to a western nation then they won't do it, simple as that. What I am talking about is not five companies getting together here with an advisory board but a country the size of France negotiating with and taking bids from five hundred ISO companies over ten years. Along with a half million soldiers and a few hundred billion dollars of government money move in.

It's absurd sure, so is genocide.

[Craig Read]

The army is not the only solution. You need to export Western Liberalism - orthodox variety - political and legal reforms pllus get the local population to help in civil duties and in building up these institutions.

This where there is a good argument that the IMF and World Bank should be demolished. They hinder not help developing countries and they create 'moral hazard'.

Just before Argentina went teats up the IMF pumped $7 Billion into the economy - the money of course disappeared.

We don't need 'World Bodies' rewarding corruption fraud and graft.

[KrustyKidd]

The army is not the only solution.  You need to export Western Liberalism - orthodox variety - political and legal reforms pllus get the local population to help in civil duties and in building up these institutions.

This where there is a good argument that the IMF and World Bank should be demolished.  They hinder not help developing countries and they create 'moral hazard'.

Just before Argentina went teats up the IMF pumped $7 Billion into the economy - the money of course disappeared.

We don't need 'World Bodies' rewarding corruption fraud and graft.

Yes, Craig you hit it on the head. Not simply military but western society as a team. Not a limp wristed effort by a single nation or the UN but rather a profit generating mega corporation approved by a world body of some sort. A whole campaign, sponsered by one country acting as a contractor for the world's willing to take on Africa one country at a time. Move in with everything as a shock force of overwhelming military, economic, political and social reform all worked out in board rooms well in advance.

As I said, strange and ludicrus but so is genocide. The other suggestions were democracy, capitalism, communism and whatever. Like export it and let me know how far past the dock it gets.

[Hugo]

You have to find a way to talk to these people in their own language. So many third-world inhabitants are so hateful of the West and of America that anything exported from them, especially cultural values, will be treated with scorn and derision.

This is why, for instance, I believe that the Middle Eastern solution is an Islamic Reformation. You can't say to Arabs, "do as America does", because they hate America. You may, however, be able to say "embrace democracy and capitalism, because if you read here and here, the Quran tells you to." That way, it makes sense to them, and it's from a source they respect and trust. They may also believe that they are still following their own way, and in a sense they may. Democracy in the Middle East may well be very different from what it looks like in the West, hopefully as effective and as politically just, but with an Arab flavour.

The same thing applies to Africa. Most of the problems there stem from tribalism and tribal hatreds, and trying to export a wishy-washy Canadian-style multiculturalism just isn't going to work. What is needed, is to tap into something in African culture that will allow tolerance and dispel tribal hatred. You cannot simply divide the continent along tribal lines, because this will firstly just change the warfare from civil to national, and secondly, some tribes are just too small to form a nation and will have to be integrated into a larger state where they run the risk of oppression.

[Craig Read]

Well to be honest I think domestic endogenous reform is a pipe dream.

Africans will not reform themselves. There is no evidence that they have the knowledge, the will, or the skills to do so.

Without Liberalism all societies basically fall into corruption. The institutional separation of powers; checks and balances and legal framework ensure that naitons can achieve wealth and some form of prosperity.

The major question is not what works but how to get there. I say political reform, legal reform some selected economic reform to get the GNP per capita about $3000 [which will create a middle class] and then more economic reforms and liberalisation.

These poorer nations need either to import the help and work with the West on economic or political reform, or if their countries are strategic enough, they will be FORCED into such reforms.

And i don't mean from the IMF or World Bank both of which should be abolished.

This is what will happen in the Middle East. I see no evidence that the Middle East will reform by itself. It will be coerced from without.

Such is how history is shaped.

This of course would offend the post modern Canadian patsy elite which lives in a dream world that if we believe they can they will.

Wrong.

[Lost in Manitoba]

The leap from poverty and famine and the horrible standards of living to the western world's riches and high standards is pretty much impossible. To play catch up, on their own, is a dead end. They do need long term 'guidance' and assistance. Reform of policing, schooling, and probably, in most cases, a new style of constitution and dome sort of charter of rights. A lot of money doesn't need be given to these countries, just time and effort. I would also say that the economic focus right now is only on Africa's mineral wealth. I hope that more focus would be placed on sustainable business and industries.

I definitely agree on your view of the World Bank. I've never ever heard anything positive about them.

[Craig Read]

China is a good example. Selective economic liberalisation and reform and they have seen the greatest reduction in poverty in the past 50 years, in world history.

India - which relied on socialism, corruption, barriers and red tape - is far behind China now.

The question of how to implement reform is case sensitive it depends on the country in question. However no doubt even the Chinese will find it hard to contain the 'liberalising' effects once a middle class is created.

The bourgeoisie always demand political reform.

As for the World Bank, an external audit found 2/3 of projects do not meet their own lax internal standards of success.

Just another fat cat UN group living off the northern tax payer, running around the world with their 'do-good' haughty demeanor.

[FastNed]

Quite candidly, while reluctant to do so, I am ready to write Africa off as a lost cause. I say this because of the actions/reactions of the present leadership of that continent to the situation in Zimbabwe. Racial politics are alive and unwell in Africa. From Mbeki in South Africa (and add in Mandella's comments) on up, they are all protecting Mugabe because he is black - and after all, he is only killing white people.

I feel deja vue and see Berlin & Germany of the 30's all over again.

I have friends in South Africa and while they are Anglican, I am suggesting they think like the Jews of Germany in the early Hitler period. Look at the handwriting on the wall, take what you can get while you can and get out.

I wish I were wrong but I don't think so.

[Craig Read]

No you are right. Africa is another socialist experiment in which exogenous read neo marxian dogma and dependency analysis nicely covers up the real issues and problems.

The main problem is the international community sends aid, workers, contracts, the World bank, the IMF and various UN tax funded agencies to Africa, perpetuating the idiocy.

Reform comes from inside not outside. If they want help they need to show genuine reforms first - political and legal. Until this happens you turn off the money spigot.

Until the flow of soft headed northerners and their soft headed money is turned off Africa will never reform itself. The same is true of the middle east though the situation there is quite different on a number of levels.

Having a soft heart should not force one to have a soft head.

[KrustyKidd]

OK, maybe I was working on too big a scale when I said there would need to be a UN approved forced economic/social attack on Africa nation by nation. How about trying it on a smaller scale. Sectioning. Move in and force change backed by military forllowed by economic, commercial, aid and social programs. Once proved in a few places it could be a reality. Sounds so draconian but starvation, dispair, and disease is the alternative. Unless of course the world tries to send in it's Lenins and whatever to slowely make change. By that time it'll be a mute problem. Old ways die hard and these people have been old a long time.

[Craig Read]

Well the West ie. the liberal elite, lawyers and Hollywood sluts, would never countenance imperialism.

Liberia is the test case and Uncle Sam sure is slow to get involved.

We [i mean the US not Canada], can only help those who know they need help and want to reform.

Precious few regimes in Africa admit that. It is easier to pronounce Western guilt, blame whites, ridicule western laxity in moral and social matters, and condemn Western Liberalism as the vanguard of European and American world domination.

Domestic political audiences like hearing this. Hey it is not our fault, someone has done this to us !

[theloniusfleabag]

If one examines 'third world countries' and their regimes, especially the brutal ones, one will find the hand of the USA involved. Brutal dictatorships thrive if the profits go to US, civil war if not. There are countless examples, including Liberia from 1986 to today.

[theloniusfleabag]

Adolish the IMF and the World Bank? The USA would never wear it, for that is 'the carrot AND the stick' with US foreign policy.

[FastNed]

Oh, Felonious Flea, please tell us what occurred in 1986 in Liberia that leads you to this opinion?

And could you share your wisdom on how America is responsible for the dictatorships of Burma, Syria and Zimbabwe?

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear FastNed,

I do not have the particular book for an exact quote(it is at work) but "in 1986, Liberia was subjected to a military coup wherein almost the entire gov't leadership was liquidated, and a tyrannical dictatorship imposed. This dictatorship was supported by the US as it had large investments there."

source: The World Human Rights Guide, 1987 by Charles Humana

As to the other countries, especially Burma (Myanmar??) drugs are a major source of income for the country, a major source of disposable income back in the US.

Afghaistan and Pakistan, and most of the 'Golden Triangle' have had their share of 'military advisors' and CIA make friends with the warlords at some point.

For Burma, read "The Politics of Heroin" (I don't remember the author, I got it from the library)and for Afghanistan read "Soldiers Of God: The Mujahadeen in Afghanistan" by Robert Kaplan.

[KrustyKidd]

If one examines 'third world countries' and their regimes, especially the brutal ones, one will find the hand of the USA involved. Brutal dictatorships thrive if the profits go to US, civil war if not. There are countless examples, including Liberia from 1986 to today.

And if one examines the benign ones, one will find a very short list. A good theory but forgetful of the fact that the US influences the entire planet. Not one country does not desire US goods or services so therefore must deal with them in trade or exchange of ideas. Bin Laden used American computors, Saddam bought American automobiles. Bad USA, bad. Better the French way. They come in and instead of building a factory to employ people they enslave them on plantations. Not so noticable because it is low tech. Ah well, they can be pious now, they got thrown out a long time ago.

Dealing with the devil because the rest just don't cut it. Makes you mad, doesn't it?

[theloniusfleabag]

I for one do not desire anything the US has to offer except beer at 7-11 and voting on legislative bills such as capital punishment and decriminalization of marijuana.

Everything else they can keep, such as drive-by shootings, wanna-be 'ganstas' and Jerry Springer. If this is what they count on as economic 'cultural' export commodities, they can rot in hell.

Interesting, Dith Pran survived Pol Pot's brutal communist regime to emigrate to the US, only to be killed by a mugger in Chicago.

[Craig Read]

Well you are an idiot so of course you deal with the superfluous and not the concrete.

America gave the world:

-Extra Legal property rights which were incorporated into national law and which paved the way for capital accumulation

-The use and repackaging of capital assets to generate investments and wealth

-Technological progress and increasing standards of living

-Checks and Balances to guard against excessive Parliamentary domination by one party [ie. like in Canada]

-A regard for freedom and security that post modern jerks like yourself don't understand

Sure I hate McDonald's, sluts like Britney and Madonna, and TV [most of it].

These are the glittering scum on a vast pool of profounder gifts.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear Mr. Read,

I am deeply saddened and hurt that you would call me an idiot and a jerk. No, wait, I don't care what you think.

America has but one aim, global domination. That is not 'so they can make the world better for all', it is so America can grow fatter and richer. They are not the only ones, to be sure, but they are the most recent to use military force to acheive it on such a scale.

Africa has many problems which cause them to remain poor, I would say 'tribalism' remains the #1 factor. However, foreign aid etc. is not the 'cause', it is an enabler to the dictators. My brother worked in a few African nations for a few years and advised me and everyone he knows to NEVER send money or supplies because a least 50% gets siphoned off to whatever military is running that country at that time.

Sudan is but one example, where a Canadian company, Talisman Energy, had development projects in that country, but sold their interests because it was found out that the monies they paid to the Gov't were being used to buy bullets which were used to 'rid the land of pesky farmers' who were there first. The people of that country would not have their 'lot in life' improved one bit by this development, for the profits would go to only two places: 1. back to North America and Talisman, 2. to fund the militia to suppress any notion of democracy or freedom, for those might get in the way of the profit flow.

Now, to be fair, Talisman did build schools and hospitals, (one each, I think), but it is hardly an acceptable trade to say, "Take your pick, you can move elsewhere and go to the nice shiny school we built, or we will have you killed".

PS, I hate TV as well, and what America used to offer in terms of profundity of gifts, has become obscured and choked with that pond scum you refer to.

[Greg]

Cut the idiot comments out Craig.