iamcanadian2 Posted November 30, 2005 Report Share Posted November 30, 2005 The Age of Elitism and Enlightenment Posted on: 27/11/2005 10:19:22 AM Ed Broadbent: Born March 21, 1936 in Oshawa, Ontario BA - Philosophy - University of Toronto MA - Philosophy of Law - University of Toronto London School of Economics PhD - Political Science - University of Toronto Political scientist and professor President of the International Centre for Human Rights and Democratic Development in Montreal 1990-96 Paul Martin: Born August 28, 1938 in Windsor, Ontario BA - philosophy and history - University of Toronto LL.B. - University of Toronto Executive, Power Corporation of Canada Chairman and CEO, Canada Steamship Lines Gilles Duceppe: Born July 22, 1947 in Montreal, Quebec Studies in political science - Université de Montréal BA - Collège Mont-Saint-Louis Union organizer Jack Layton Born July 18, 1950 in Montreal, Quebec. BA - McGill University MA - York University Ph.D. - York University Professor - Ryerson Polytechnic University Founder - Green Catalyst Group Inc. Stephen Harper Born April 20, 1959 in Toronto, Ontario BA - University of Calgary 1985 MA - University of Calgary 1991 Economist President, National Citizens Coalition 1998 Belinda Stronach: Born May 2, 1966 in Newmarket, Ontario Attended York University in Toronto for one year. Elected to Magna Board of Directors 1988 Named CEO of Magna International 2001 President as well as CEO of Magna International Inc. 2002 Resigned as Magna CEO and President and from Board of Directors to run for Conservative leadership 2004 Founding member of Canadian Automotive Partnership Council Member of Ontario Task Force on Productivity, Competitiveness and Economic Progress Director of Yves Landry Technological Endowment Fund Member of Board of Directors of U.S. Chamber of Commerce Replies: Replied on: 27/11/2005 1:41:51 PM I didn't realize Paul Martin got his law degree at the UofT. That’s the hardest law school in the country to get into. Guess that means he’s smarter than Stephen Harper. I’m kidding. All of them have pretty impressive educational credentials (except Stronach) Replied on: 27/11/2005 2:27:00 PM The fact that he got a law degree at all should be seen as a very negative thing for a politician. The fact that he got one from a more prestigious school makes this negative thing even worse. Lawyers are trained to lie and cheat professionally. We need less liars and cheaters representing the public. Replied on: 27/11/2005 2:30:30 PM Oh great. More anti-Lawyer nonsense. Lawyers are trained to interpret the law and represent their clients. I know you would rather live in a world where "what Iam says goes", but in this country everyone has the right to be represented by counsel. Lawyers are WELL EQUIPPED for careers in government because they actually understand what’s going on. I'd say the fact that Stephen Harper is an economist is more troubling. Every economist I have ever met relies on problematic assumptions that render all of their analysis flawed. Replied on: 27/11/2005 2:46:13 PM I disagree. Economists are in the realm of science. They apply models and logical theories to truths that apply to real world events. Lawyers are in the realm of actors and magicians that use slight of hand (or slight of tongue) to generate conclusions out of facts that are not founded on reality backed by evidence and truth. The better Economist represents the reality better. The better Lawyer misrepresents reality better. Who do you want leading the public interest in government? Most people do not share your benevolent view of Lawyers or their general function as a profession. Replied on: 27/11/2005 3:01:22 PM HAHAHAHAHAHAH Have you ever taken economics? They apply models and logical theories (which themselves are based on assumptions). I would hardly call economics a "science". Economics was one of my best subjects in undergrad solely because I could spew back everything my prof said to me and not anger him by pointing out the glaring flaws and holes in the logic. Au contraire. Lawyers often have to prove facts "backed by evidence and truth" Not when they are funded by far right think tanks and advocacy groups like the Fraser Institute or the NCC. Either or. Both can be good or bad. Most people seem to have been fooled into thinking that all Liberal are crooks, which they aren’t. Most people aren’t very smart. Furthermore, I think people's dislike of lawyers stems more from their high bills than anything else. As a final point, I should note that it is a hell of a lot harder to get into law at the UofT than the economics grad program at the UofC. It could be irrelevant, but there it is. Replied on: 27/11/2005 3:17:16 PM That he may have been a good law student or not, he did not practice law with the skills. So he using the skill lawyers use when managing and representing facts to do other things with it. Not a good thing I am afraid. People's dislike of lawyers comes from two directions. If you have dealt one and won, the legal fees (because they are the only ones that gain anything from their work). If you dealt with one and lost, then it's the lying and cheating over the truth of the facts and the fees. I know of no one that speaks highly of lawyers unless they never dealt with one. Replied on: 27/11/2005 3:24:22 PM People don’t work for free. People don’t go to school for 7 years for nothing. ... or maybe you just have no case and no lawyer in the world can save you. Replied on: 27/11/2005 6:01:30 PM ...or maybe the ethics of lawyers is a general problem. Those who are advancing by sacrificing personal ethics rather than relying on personal integrity and being competent when dealing with the truth of the facts. Replied on: 27/11/2005 6:07:01 PM Lawyers are required by law not to lie to the court. When they do they are violating their duty, NOT upholding it as you would have us believe. Lawyers are the people who society loves to hate. They are an easy scapegoat for people whose situation is simply not on the side of the law. IAM you have no credibility. You are an absolute cynic. Replied on: 27/11/2005 Spoken like a true lawyer. And, yes what lawyers do is incredible and beyond belief for non-lawyers. Most people don't have a clue about lawyers beyond what they see on TV. Lawyer’s tend to mislead the Court to the advantage of first themselves and then their clients whenever possible. The more unethical the lawyer the better, especially in Canada where lawyer's ethics are not regulated by the State as they are in most other countries. Judges work to preserve the myth about lawyers having integrity in Court or out of it. Most of the better lawyer's out there know better and use this about the courts to their advantage. Replied on: 27/11/2005 7:54:11 PM Spoken like a true cynic. Hey if you want you can as an individual always deal with the justice system without counsel. That’s your prerogative. Give it a shot. People hire lawyer for a reason. They understand a system that most people don’t. Unless you propose that we do away with a complex legal system (and it is complex precisely because justice is complicated) you have no way to do away with the necessity of lawyers. Lawyer’s ethics may not be directly regulated by the state but the law societies in the various provinces typically require a high standard of ethical behavior. There are many widely held misperceptions that are false. One of them is that most lawyers are unethical. Replied on: 27/11/2005 8:38:32 PM People hire lawyers because they have to. No one does so out of choice. The rules that are designed to prevent non-lawyer from delivering their own case are incredible. You would think that in this day and age of literacy for all, the Courts would have been updated so that people could do without lawyers.. But alas the legal industry protects itself by rules to force people to use lawyers so that justice is only affordable to the very rich or very poor, and with most people getting screwed by their own lawyer regardless of the issues or rights in any case. It is not a myth that most GOOD lawyer are unethical. The ones that aren't don't do so well. Replied on: 27/11/2005 8:54:52 PM hahahah Ok buddy. Let’s let anarchy reign. Legal regimes are complex precisely because the world is complex. Democratic societies governed by the rule of law require lawyers. Clearly you are of the irrational lawyer hating variety. I choose to no longer respond to your ridiculous posts. Replied on: 27/11/2005 9:25:20 PM No, I think the law of the land would be very easy to deal with simply if the rules to protect the legal industry where relaxed. Most of the complexity is artificial to force people to hire lawyers. A hundred years ago when rules of civil procedures where necessary most people where not educated. Today we are, and much of the rules complicating legal work are no longer relevant to the concept of justice and only serve to make work for the legal professions. Replied on: 27/11/2005 9:36:04 PM I think you are right. I think lawyers make themselves more necessary than should be necessary. Accountants do the same thing with our income tax forms. It used to be much simpler. The United States is much worse however, on both fronts. Their income tax forms are a nightmare. KC4Justice doesn't see it yet because he is still young, but when he is older he will see it differently. All professionals tend to be too ideological when they are young, but develop a more rounded ironic understanding as they grow older. A lot of the problem is that we are only taught one way to do anything, all the way through to the end of our post-secondary education. Lawyers, Doctors, Engineers, Teachers, Social Workers, all the same each in their own way. Replied on: 28/11/2005 07:55:43 AM You make this sound like a racial thing. People hate lawyers because they tend to sacrifice their personal ethics for money. Law school class "misrepresentation and misdirection" 101?. When the facts are against you, attack the credibility of the witness. The best reason not to vote for someone is when its a lawyer. People trained in "misrepresenting and misdirecting" the truth of facts should not be advanced over those who are from more ethical professions. Replied on: 28/11/2005 08:16:29 AM Do any pro-lawyer people here know any lawyers? They don't think in the normal way (most of them) of their clients. Contracts/IP lawyers -- I've known many -- are always into making things difficult. All they ever think about are roadblocks, effective people think about solutions. One lawyer exists only because other lawyers exist. They're nice people, but their minds don't work the same as a common person. Replied on: 28/11/2005 08:18:56 AM You guys are a bunch of moronic cranky old *******s. When you don’t have a leg to stand on in an argument, you attack the age of the person you are arguing with. I have seen this before. The most intelligent and enlightened people (Bluegrit, WHD) on this board tend to be among its youngest. It’s most ignorant and uninformed (WB, Iam, Bellringer) are a bit older. Only a bigoted old fart could dismiss an entire profession as crooked. This is a ridiculous sweeping statement. Its falseness speaks for itself. I hope that next time you have troubles with the legal system every lawyer refuses to represent you. Then you can see what life without lawyers is like. You truly are stupid. Replied on: 28/11/2005 08:48:22 AM Wow you really think highly of yourself, just because you are a lawyer. I said "Lawyers tend to sacrifice their personal ethics for money". This is part of what the profession does. "Defend criminals", "Take advantage of people for their clients benefit", "Misdirect and misrepresent facts and evidence", "attack the credibility of people when the truth and the facts are against you", etc.. and they get paid very well for doing these things. The better they do this the more they get paid. These are the kinds of things that the "profession" is required to do. This requires that people sacrifice their personal ethics. You don't accept this then you are not a good lawyer. Facts are the fact, and a proof is a proof when its proven. It is my view that lawyers should be excluded from politics and from political systems. The profession should regulate themselves out of influencing political matters and let regular people be the ones making decisions. Lawyers are not well trained to make decisions. Their professional roles are designed to be advisors to decision makers and not the makers of decisions. They trained to be ADVOCATES and SOLICITORS of other people’s decisions. This is one of the worst problems with Canada that is not shared by other societies, where lawyers are recognized more as being a necessary evil, which is not the same as being a good thing. We need more enlightenment and less elitism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leafless Posted December 7, 2005 Report Share Posted December 7, 2005 iamcanadian2 So, what's the point in all of this? Who else is going to apply for a career in politics outside of one who is the holder of uninportant university degrees, a degree or a couple of courses in political science or history, or lawyers who never really established themselves in private buisness. But I suppose it can pay in the long run for politicians like Jean Chretien who made it a full time occupation. Some individuals pursue a career in politics for nothing more than a perceived legacy. But I think you have something more on your mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PolyNewbie Posted December 19, 2005 Report Share Posted December 19, 2005 Lawyers are required to tell the truth to the courts but they do not do it. There is a pathetic joke known as the law society and these weasels routinely lie to the law society and the law society both knows and expects this. Even if you have witnesses to the affect the law society doesn't have the budget to investigate and assumes the honorable, noble and distinguished member is telling the truth even when they know otherwise. They simply are kept on a shoe string budget and skeleton staff so they cannot do anything about it. Who ever has anything good to say about lawyers doesn't have any experience with them. The law society is there to protect the lawyers from the public not the public from the lawyers. The lawyers at the law society are inaccessible to the public and only available to members. Quote Support the troops. Bring them home. Let the bankers fight their own wars. www.infowars.com Watch 911 Mysteries at http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8172271955308136871 "By the time the people wake up to see the bars around them, the door will have already slammed shut." Texx Mars Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FTA Lawyer Posted December 19, 2005 Report Share Posted December 19, 2005 The generalized comments about lawyers on this thread are simply absurd. I know a number of lawyers who are of the highest ethical standards...and also some of the most successful and well-respected in the profession. I also know a number of lawyers who I wouldn't trust for anything. But I can say the exact same thing of doctors, teachers, accountants, cab drivers, welfare recipients... There's good and bad people everywhere in life. To suggest that lawyers are trained to lie, cheat, manipulate etc. is completely false. Every lawyer knows that his or her case is made or lost by the facts. If you cannot prove the facts you need to make your legal argument, then you are sunk. What we are trained to do is be discriminating and very analytical when it comes to figuring out what the facts actually are. When a police officer files a report, his "facts" are usually different from the accused's "facts", both of which are often different from other witnesses "facts". Forgive me if I am skillful in demonstrating that certain versions of the facts are less likely to be true than others. Make no mistake about it though, in order to do this, I need evidence...without it I have no case. As far as allegations of the "myths" about lawyers being ethical in court...instead of ranting about a bad experience that you were personally invested in, go sit in court on any given day and watch a trial or a hearing of some sort...you will invariably see a high standard of integrity and respect being demonstrated by most lawyers. As far as being forced to have a lawyer, there is no jurisdiction in the entire country that I am aware of where an individual party cannot represent themselves. Notwithstanding this freedom, most litigants choose lawyers to act for them because they can objectively review the case (without emotional bias or attachment) and because they are professional advocates. I know I will likely get nowhere on changing certain people's rabid contempt for the legal profession, however, I nevertheless feel it important for me to stand up for myself and my colleagues. FTA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PolyNewbie Posted December 19, 2005 Report Share Posted December 19, 2005 If you want self governance then you take responsibility for the despicable actions of your colleagues. You admit that you know some scum bag lawyers. Did you report them or just keep your mouth shut ? Have you ever reported a lawyer to the law society or is that a career killer - cause if thats a career killer in the law profession you are responsible. Self governance means that YOU are responsible !!! Quote Support the troops. Bring them home. Let the bankers fight their own wars. www.infowars.com Watch 911 Mysteries at http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8172271955308136871 "By the time the people wake up to see the bars around them, the door will have already slammed shut." Texx Mars Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PolyNewbie Posted December 19, 2005 Report Share Posted December 19, 2005 Furthermore: You lawyers went to the government and asked for self governance. The government of this country gave you self governing privelidges. Now there are so many of you that are in power structures everywhere that you no longer have to self govern. You charge so much money that most of us cannot defend ourselves from you. The law society has 8 lawyers supervising 88000 lawyers to save you your membership fees and to let you people lie all the time. The law society can just say "we are doing our best with our limited staff" and people buy it without understanding that YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE !!! The law society works for YOU in protecting us from the worst of you. I had an argument with the lawyer at the law society who took my case that went like this: Me: You should contact the person for whom I am complaining about and find out what happened Law society: Why bother she is just going to lie anyways ? Me: Well if you take that attitude then its like they don't even have to lie. If she is going to lie then make her lie about it !!! Don't shield her from having to lie. Do you really think that you lawyers can just keep on lying to the law society and it doesn't matter because the law society knows you are going to lie ? If this happens 50 more times, imagine if it happens to a psychopath or a person with a mental disorder > What if that person grabs a gun and shoots a pile of lawyers ? Can you honestly say you didn't deserve it? We went to war with Hitler (not for the reason of protecting poor jews but we use that as a justification today) so you cannot say violence is never justified. I wonder what you people say after you screw the wrong person like this and that happens. Do you really think that you can just go around screwing people because you think they have inferiour genetics ? - just you get away with lying to the law society all the time anyways ? Do you think that people that deal with lawyers do not know that they lie to the law society and the law society does nothing ??? LOTS of people know this !!! Lots of lawyers know this and say this. The law society must be your favorite joke !!! The problem here is that you lawyers think the rest of us are just a bunch of specks. Quote Support the troops. Bring them home. Let the bankers fight their own wars. www.infowars.com Watch 911 Mysteries at http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8172271955308136871 "By the time the people wake up to see the bars around them, the door will have already slammed shut." Texx Mars Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazymf Posted December 19, 2005 Report Share Posted December 19, 2005 beep...beep....BEEP!!!! Damn, my troll alert just went off. Quote The trouble with the legal profession is that 98% of its members give the rest a bad name. Don't be humble - you're not that great. Golda Meir Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PolyNewbie Posted December 20, 2005 Report Share Posted December 20, 2005 beep...beep....BEEP!!!!Damn, my troll alert just went off. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> You are right. Maybe we should just keep quiet. Quote Support the troops. Bring them home. Let the bankers fight their own wars. www.infowars.com Watch 911 Mysteries at http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8172271955308136871 "By the time the people wake up to see the bars around them, the door will have already slammed shut." Texx Mars Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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