20,000 Canadians who fought in Vietnam War...

[Montgomery Burns]

Ottawa Sun columnist Earl McRae:

Doug Carey won't be at the national War Memorial this morning. If he'd been made to feel welcomed, made to feel honoured, made to feel remembered, he might have decided to go, but the Canadian government doesn't have any such sentiments for Doug Carey, veteran, Doug Carey, Canadian, or the 20,000 of his fellow countrymen who fought, (..as Ann Coulter accurately stated on Canada's state-run, taxpayer-funded, Governor-General-awarding CBC --MB) or the 103 who died.

The Canadian Vietnam Veterans Association, with branches across Canada, has not been invited to the Remembrance Day service this morning. If the association, or any individual Canadian Vietnam vets, wish to use the War Memorial for wreath laying to honour their Canadian comrades, along with our soldiers in all the wars, they will have to do so detached from the official ceremony and -- as they have in the past -- when eyes are looking the other way.

It will not be mentioned that on the memorial in Washington, D.C., The Wall, with the names of the more than 58,000 U.S. soldiers killed in the Vietnam War, are the names of the 103 Canadians also killed.

It will not be mentioned that Canada, neutral in the Vietnam War, permitted some 30,000 American draft dodgers into the country as landed immigrants, along with numerous military deserters.

It will not be mentioned that Canada, the Canada who said Canadians signing with U.S. forces for Vietnam was a violation of Canada's Foreign Enlistment Act of 1937 disallowing Canadians to serve in the military of a country at war with a nation Canada has no quarrel with, is the same and hypocritical Canada whose economy profited from the war by the sale to the American military between 1968 and 1973 of $2.7 billion worth of war materiel from guns to grenades to aircraft engines to military vehicles to boots to berets to napalm.

Do you think the Canadian Vietnam Veterans should have been invited to the Remembrance Day service?

I say yes and I would like to thank them for their brave and honorable courage in the fight for freedom, and against communism.

[Yaro]

No, they weren't fighting for Canada and the Vietnam war was a sad mistake that a good 95% of the population now recognize as such. If they want to be honored for going to fight in a country they never should have been in on behalf of a foreign power then they can go to the US and receive whatever honors are due them.

Those idiots didn't do anything but give us all a black eye internationally, and encourage/perform a great number of atrocities.

[August1991]

No, they weren't fighting for Canada and the Vietnam war was a sad mistake that a good 95% of the population now recognize as such. If they want to be honored for going to fight in a country they never should have been in on behalf of a foreign power then they can go to the US and receive whatever honors are due them.

Those idiots didn't do anything but give us all a black eye internationally, and encourage/perform a great number of atrocities.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What about the Korean war, was that also a mistake?

And Yaro, how do you feel about the Americans defeating the Soviets in the Cold War? In your view, did the "right" side win?

[ceemes]

No, they weren't fighting for Canada and the Vietnam war was a sad mistake that a good 95% of the population now recognize as such. If they want to be honored for going to fight in a country they never should have been in on behalf of a foreign power then they can go to the US and receive whatever honors are due them.

Those idiots didn't do anything but give us all a black eye internationally, and encourage/perform a great number of atrocities.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What about the Korean war, was that also a mistake?

And Yaro, how do you feel about the Americans defeating the Soviets in the Cold War? In your view, did the "right" side win?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

My father fought in Korea and was an unintentional guest of the Chinese Army......his take on the war.....not f'ing worth it.

[crazymf]

I'm a little twitchy on this one. The men did go there on behalf of the American government after all and to expect the Canadian government to officially recognise them is not really right. They were there as merc's after all, from our country and getting paid to shoot 3rd party gooks while getting paid by another government.

The USA should have recognised all by granting automatic citizenship and affording them all the veterans benefits that the homeboys got, if any. Maybe they even did that, I don't know.

I for one appreciate the support they gave our brothers down south, however, and would support any official recommendation of gratitude the government threw their way.

Indirectly, any war the USA fights, we must as well to preserve our way of life, which is totally dependant on their survival.

[Yaro]

And Yaro, how do you feel about the Americans defeating the Soviets in the Cold War? In your view, did the "right" side win?

We have had this discussion before, neither side was right. Would I rather have had the USSR win? No. Would I rather have had a far more mature and intelligent resolution that didn't leave both countries in horrific shape? Yes.

What about the Korean war, was that also a mistake?

Of course it was a mistake, what was the point? All we did was pave the way for the communists to be able to legitimately point to the west and say "see they aren't on your side, there a bunch of psychos". Why would we help them along in this? If communism was so bad then they would have drifted away from it naturally as the Chinese are.

[PocketRocket]

Ottawa Sun columnist Earl McRae:

Doug Carey won't be at the national War Memorial this morning. If he'd been made to feel welcomed, made to feel honoured, made to feel remembered, he might have decided to go, but the Canadian government doesn't have any such sentiments for Doug Carey, veteran, Doug Carey, Canadian, or the 20,000 of his fellow countrymen who fought, (..as Ann Coulter accurately stated on Canada's state-run, taxpayer-funded, Governor-General-awarding CBC --MB) or the 103 who died.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Monty, you seem rather confident in stating that Coulter was correct.

Here's a video of the interview in question, in which she clearly states that CANADA SENT TROOPS.

http://homepage.mac.com/onegoodmove/movies...coulterCBC.html

Coulter is clearly NOT saying that SOME Canadians volunteered to join US forces, but rather insisting that CANADA SENT troops.

She was clearly mistaken, as were you in saying her statements were "accurate".

As an aside, she also did not feel compelled to "get back to you on that" as she promised, and no where on record (at least that I could find) does she admit to being mistaken in this regard. But then again, admitting her mistakes is not her wont, nor that of her ilk.

But she is, after all, an entertainer first and foremost. She just happens to entertain in the political arena.

As to whether these Vets should be honored, I would tend to say no.

If they feel they did the right thing by joining the American forces to fight in a war that Canada had nothing at all to do with, then that feeling of having "done right" should be enough.

Besides, the article does not state that they are not welcome at the ceremony, simply that they are not among the specific groups being OFFICIALLY honored in that particular ceremony.

I believe OFFICIAL honors should be reserved for those who fought OFFICIALLY on Canada's behalf.

Your article also mentions how the names of the Canadians who fell in 'Nam are included, and honored, on the Viet Nam War Memorial.

If the USA is so appreciative of the Canadians who joined in that conflict, then the USA can officially honor them.

They are, after all, quick to condemn Canadians who they believe MAY be affilliated with anyone or anything which is opposed to their efforts in Iraq (ie: Maher Arar) without any due process.

They should be as quick to honor those who help them.

[Biblio Bibuli]

And Yaro, how do you feel about the Americans defeating the Soviets ...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If you asked a question about how Canadians feel about the Americans winning ANY international conflict, say 35 years ago, you would have heard nothing but thunderous applause and RAH RAH RAHS for the Americans.

But those were the days when both, Canada and the U.S., were the best places on the face of this Earth to live.

And though Canada is still a good place to live, it has slipped compared to the Americans.

Looking at what Frank Voltaire said .... "Le mieux est l'ennemi du bien." ... I don't blame the weak for rebelling & whining.

[Riverwind]

I believe OFFICIAL honors should be reserved for those who fought OFFICIALLY on Canada's behalf.

I know a Canadian vetran who fought in Afganistan for the Russians. Should he be honored at offical ceremonies?

[Freshinit]

What about the Korean war, was that also a mistake?

And Yaro, how do you feel about the Americans defeating the Soviets in the Cold War?  In your view, did the "right" side win?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The Korean war was a success in that is halted the North Korean invasion of South Korea. Vietnam was a total loss in that nobody saved any nation from communism.

[PocketRocket]

I believe OFFICIAL honors should be reserved for those who fought OFFICIALLY on Canada's behalf.

I know a Canadian vetran who fought in Afganistan for the Russians. Should he be honored at offical ceremonies?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hmmm. Because of the tenor of your remarks, and because you chose to quote my post, I'm not sure if you're agreeing with me, or being sarcastic, or if you misunderstod what I was saying in the post.

Allow me to clarify....

No. He did not fight OFFICIALLY on Canada's behalf, so he should not be honored OFFICIALLY at a Canadian ceremony.

Which is, by the way, the same thing I was saying about those Canadians who chose to fight in VietNam.

[Biblio Bibuli]

"Le mieux est l'ennemi du bien."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yodler's been yodelling in my ear to translate the above ever since I put it out here hours ago.

"For his unilingual friends", he says.

I'm probably talking to thin air, but here it is:

"The best is the enemy of the good."

What got him yanked this time?

[August1991]

She was clearly mistaken, as were you in saying her statements were "accurate".

As an aside, she also did not feel compelled to "get back to you on that" as she promised, and no where on record (at least that I could find) does she admit to being mistaken in this regard. But then again, admitting her mistakes is not her wont, nor that of her ilk.

Far be it freom me to defend Ann Coulter, but Canada did indeed send troops to Vietnam as part of the ICC. (See Veteran Affairs.) This involved troops from Poland, Hungary and Indonesia (notice the choice of countries). Watching that clip, I suspect that is not what Coulter meant. Australia though did send troops as part of its treaty obligations under SEATO. (See Australian Government).

The Korean war was a success in that is halted the North Korean invasion of South Korea. Vietnam was a total loss in that nobody saved any nation from communism.

I disagree. People alive today should be thankful for leaders such as Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson and Nixon for their determination to defend liberty and face down the scourge of Soviet communism. In fact though, it is ordinary Americans who we should really thank. (Read this.)

[Riverwind]

I believe OFFICIAL honors should be reserved for those who fought OFFICIALLY on Canada's behalf.

I know a Canadian vetran who fought in Afganistan for the Russians. Should he be honored at offical ceremonies?

Hmmm. Because of the tenor of your remarks, and because you chose to quote my post, I'm not sure if you're agreeing with me, or being sarcastic, or if you misunderstod what I was saying in the post.

I am agreeing with you: Canadians who fought in Vietnam for the US are no different from Canadians who fought in Afghanistan for Russians.

[PocketRocket]

I believe OFFICIAL honors should be reserved for those who fought OFFICIALLY on Canada's behalf.

I know a Canadian vetran who fought in Afganistan for the Russians. Should he be honored at offical ceremonies?

Hmmm. Because of the tenor of your remarks, and because you chose to quote my post, I'm not sure if you're agreeing with me, or being sarcastic, or if you misunderstod what I was saying in the post.

I am agreeing with you: Canadians who fought in Vietnam for the US are no different from Canadians who fought in Afghanistan for Russians.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Okay. All good. Just the way you had set it up left me wondering.

[Biblio Bibuli]

No. He did not fight OFFICIALLY on Canada's behalf, so he should not be honored OFFICIALLY at a Canadian ceremony.

Which is, by the way, the same thing I was saying about those Canadians who chose to fight in VietNam.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Whether I was a Canadian fighting in Vietnam or a Russian fighting in Afghanistan or a Czech slugging it out on MLW, I wouldn't care if I were honored at some ceremony.

What I would care about is if YOU respect me for it.

Come on PocketRocket, make my day.

[PocketRocket]

Far be it freom me to defend Ann Coulter, but Canada did indeed send troops to Vietnam as part of the ICC.  (See Veteran Affairs.)  This involved troops from Poland, Hungary and Indonesia (notice the choice of countries). Watching that clip, I suspect that is not what Coulter meant.

"Suspect" that's not what she meant??? AUGUST, if it WAS what she meant, she would have been "getting back to" us immediately afterward crowing about how she was right and McKeown was wrong.

I was aware that we had people there (Nam) helping supervise the withdrawal, but thanks for the link, I learned some stuff that was new to me.

Coulter's comments, however, clearly implied that she thought Canada took part in a combative role.

Canada has contributed to the war effort in Afghanistan, which I heartily approve of. But Afghanistan and Iraq are two totally different kettles of fish.

Canada has, however, pledged something like $300Million to the Iraq rebuilding effort, and has sent personel to help train the new Iraqi police and army, from what I understand.

So, like VietNam, while we refused to become entangled in a war which was not ours, we have helped to clean up the mess afterwards.

  Australia though did send troops as part of its treaty obligations under SEATO.  (See Australian Government).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That was also mentioned to Coulter in the interview.

[PocketRocket]

Come on PocketRocket, make my day.

Speaking of combative.....

Anyway, hopefully I can make your day all sweetness and light.

BTW, I see you're new here. Welcome aboard. I hope you enjoy your stay.

Whether I was a Canadian fighting in Vietnam or a Russian fighting in Afghanistan or a Czech slugging it out on MLW, I wouldn't care if I were honored at some ceremony.

Commendable. If we fought only for accolades, it would make a sham of everything we would fight for.

What I would care about is if YOU respect me for it.

Well, I'm not sure what I did to make my humble opinion all that important to you, but I'll choose to take that as a compliment. Thank you.

But since it does seem important to you, I'll put it this way; I have immense respect for anyone who is willing to put him or herself in harm's way to protect another.

Whether that "other" is friend, family, or countryman, it matters not.

If you research some posts I did here a while back, I have said repeatedly that the "heroes" of any war are not those who have died, or even those who have seen action, but rather ALL of those who stepped forward and said "I'll go".

The day a policeman first puts on his uniform and walks the beat in a violent neighbourhood.....hero.

The day a recruit signs up, knowing he may be called on to fight.....hero.

The day a volunteer fireman goes out, knowing he may have to step into that burning building to rescue a child.....hero.

All these people and more have my utmost respect.

But you don't honor a songwriter at the EMMY awards, and you don't honor actors at the GRAMMY's, and you don't honor mercenary soldiers-of-fortune at a remembrance day ceremony which is dedicated to honoring Canadian troops who fought FOR CANADA.

Whther or not VietNam was fought to Canada's benefit seems to be a bone of contention in this thread, but to my mind it was not Canada's war, and benefitted us not at all (and benefitted both the USA and VietNam damned little).

Hence my lack of disappointment that this particular group of "veterans" were not included in the honors this year.

Come on PocketRocket, make my day.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I hope I did so to your satisfaction.

[ceemes]

November 11th is a day to honour and remember Canada's War Dead and surviving vets, not Canadians who fought for other nations and their wars.

While I am sure that those Canadians who enlisted in the US Forces and fought in Vietnam did so honourable and with the best intentions, they were not fighting for Canada.

I say this as an ex-Canadian Armed Forces member and peacekeeper.

[PocketRocket]

CEEMES: as a Canadian, my hat's off to you.

My utmost respect to you and all who have served, both past and present.

[ceemes]

Far be it freom me to defend Ann Coulter, but Canada did indeed send troops to Vietnam as part of the ICC.  (See Veteran Affairs.)  This involved troops from Poland, Hungary and Indonesia (notice the choice of countries). Watching that clip, I suspect that is not what Coulter meant.

"Suspect" that's not what she meant??? AUGUST, if it WAS what she meant, she would have been "getting back to" us immediately afterward crowing about how she was right and McKeown was wrong.

I was aware that we had people there (Nam) helping supervise the withdrawal, but thanks for the link, I learned some stuff that was new to me.

Coulter's comments, however, clearly implied that she thought Canada took part in a combative role.

Canada has contributed to the war effort in Afghanistan, which I heartily approve of. But Afghanistan and Iraq are two totally different kettles of fish.

Canada has, however, pledged something like $300Million to the Iraq rebuilding effort, and has sent personel to help train the new Iraqi police and army, from what I understand.

So, like VietNam, while we refused to become entangled in a war which was not ours, we have helped to clean up the mess afterwards.

  Australia though did send troops as part of its treaty obligations under SEATO.  (See Australian Government).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That was also mentioned to Coulter in the interview.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually at the US's request, Canada along with other Commonwealth nations were set to go into Vietnam in the late 1960's. However, the conditions demanded by the Commonwealth was that the US agreed to suspend their combat operations and adopt a stictly Logistics support role. The Commonwealth would take over combat operations while pursuing talks to bring about a peaceful settlement of the conflict. The US refused with the plan, and Canada, England and the rest of the Commonwealth told them to go piss up a rope. Not long afterwards, Australia scaled back their operations in Vietnam and began a troop reduction.

[August1991]

November 11th is a day to honour and remember Canada's War Dead and surviving vets, not Canadians who fought for other nations and their wars. 

While I am sure that those Canadians who enlisted in the US Forces and fought in Vietnam did so honourable and with the best intentions, they were not fighting for Canada.

I say this as an ex-Canadian Armed Forces member and peacekeeper.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Many Canadians enlisted and served in the British Army. Would you include them among those to be honoured?

[crazymf]

20 000???

Try this.

http://www.mystae.com/reflections/vietnam/canada.html

4000

[ceemes]

November 11th is a day to honour and remember Canada's War Dead and surviving vets, not Canadians who fought for other nations and their wars. 

While I am sure that those Canadians who enlisted in the US Forces and fought in Vietnam did so honourable and with the best intentions, they were not fighting for Canada.

I say this as an ex-Canadian Armed Forces member and peacekeeper.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Many Canadians enlisted and served in the British Army. Would you include them among those to be honoured?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If they fought with the British Forces in wars that Canada also fought in, then yes. Canadians have fought in both British and Canadian Forces during:

1) the Boer War

2) the Great War (WWI)

3) the Second World War

4) the Korean Conflict

5) during various joint UN Peacekeeping operations

6) in the former Yugoslavia

7) the current Afghani conflict.

However, you will note that I did not include the Falklands War. To add food for thought, I was born in the UK and came to Canada as a young child. I was in the CAF during the Falklands War and did give serious consideration to leaving the CAF and enlisting in the UK forces since I held and still hold dual citizenship. Had I done so, I would not expect to be honoured for my service in the UK forces in Canada. For my service with the CAF and UN duties yes, but not if I had joined the UK force in the Falklands.

[crazymf]

I'm still trying to sort out in my head after my 45 years how a killer can be a hero in the name of his country or get the death penalty for doing the same deed in his own name.