Strike!

[Letitfly]

I don't care what anyone says on this issue, teachers should not be allowed to disprupt the education of children that depend on them.  They're entitled to hold protests and things on their own time, but making kids in schools suffer because of your contract negotiations is deplorable at best.  Throughout elementary and high school, my classes were disrupted 4 times by strikes and work to rule protests.  I firmly believe it is detrimental to the education of some children.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That you don't care what anyone else thinks about the issue tells me that you're a good ole home grown BC Liberal. How typical.

[Argus]

If public education was controlled by the right there would be an almost total concentration on the three R's, much more discipline, and much less coddling. There would be strict standards for passing, and students would be readily informed when they were failing to meet them. No one would graduate without having a very strong grounding in language and math, and would be taught the essentials of Canadian traditions and history.  The fact is you find very, very few right-wing teachers, and thus the educational establishment, which draws from that base, is left wing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If the system you describe above is strictly "right-wing", how come that it was the norm not only in Canadian and U.S. schools back in the 60s, but also in all of the Iron Curtain countries?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I said nothing about it being "strictly right wing". I said that was what the right wingers would favour here. It is clearly NOT what the left wingers favour. Besides, are you really going to suggest that the school systems in Iron Curtain countries were not massively involved in propaganda efforts with their captive charges?

[Yodeler]

Besides, are you really going to suggest that the school systems in Iron Curtain countries were not massively involved in propaganda efforts with their captive charges?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I wouldn't call it propaganda any more than I would call what was told to you about us "propaganda".

Some of it was true, some of it wasn't. On both sides.

Now we are friends and that's all that counts.

Dosvidania tovarisch!

[Durgan]

"Teachers are expected to reach unattainable goals with inadequate tools.

The miracle is that at times they accomplish this impossible task."

Quote of Haim G. Ginott, Israeli born American child psychologist.

Teacher's are expected to be all things to all people, primarily baby sitters in the nuclear family environment. Imparting of knowledge becomes secondary.

Pay them generously and give much Public Support. They need it and more.

Durgan.

[Argus]

Teacher's are expected to be all things to all people, primarily baby sitters in the nuclear family environment. Imparting of knowledge becomes secondary.

Pay them generously and give much Public Support. They need it and more.

Durgan.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

They are already paid generously - too generously. Anyone with the right personality traits can take a course manual and teach most subjects fairly well.

It ain't rocket science.

And their regular strikes with signs which demand "More money, less work" seldom evoke much sympathy.

Especially given the number of students who graduate without the ability to read or write, who know virtually nothing about history or geography, and whose math skills consist entirely of punching buttons into a calculator.

[Argus]

Besides, are you really going to suggest that the school systems in Iron Curtain countries were not massively involved in propaganda efforts with their captive charges?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I wouldn't call it propaganda any more than I would call what was told to you about us "propaganda".

Some of it was true, some of it wasn't. On both sides.

Almost everything we were told was true. Almost nothing they were told was true.

And we are temporarily friends, until Putin succeeds in leeching the last dregs of democracy from their system, crushes all dissent, and starts seriously rebuilding the military. Which I suspect won't be too long in the future.

[Durgan]

Teaching has to be amongst the most miserable jobs in our society. Granted there are alehsos in the business, but this is true of all professions. Many teachers actually believe they can make a difference. Many teachers are almost a dedicated as any wild eyed missionary trying to change the sex habits of happy natives.

People have mediocre children and expect the teacher to turn them into highly motivated, bright graduates. How many parents read to your small children? How many check the children’s homework? How many make sure they are physically fit, and have some daily exercise? How many insure their children study several hours every night? How many of you parents let little Johnny and little Mary play games on the computer, or use the worst invention on the internet MSN, when they should be studying? It is easier and convenient to leave all to the school teachers. The bright children get through because of, or in spite of teachers. Parents with dumb or average children cannot expect the teacher to accomplish miracles without strong parental effort. A disruptive child not only causes anxiety to the teacher, but destroys teaching time for other children.

Parents, tax payers, will not supply the necessary funds for school supplies. Many schools have copy restrictions, if they have a copy machines that works. Most of the outdated computers in grade schools don’t function, and there is usually no realistic technical support. The working computers become toys to play games, a habit carried to school from home. Often schools have inadequate cleaning services. I only mention a few as examples. there are no doubt other concerns.

Any public education system is a dreadful way to teach a child, but until some other system comes along you have to make the best of it. Some people with the means hire private tutors or private schools, again with inconsistent results. This is a route if you can afford it. In the mean time support the teachers. If you have not walked the walk, quit yipping and support the teachers. They have a hell of a row to hoe.

Homework is necessary and is a parental responsibility. Any person, who thinks a teacher can impart all that is required during school hours, is not being realistic. A teacher can at most guide, the student should learn most out of the classroom by personal study. Sorry folks that is reality.

Lunch breaks, teachers need lunch breaks far more than kids. Pay the money and hire lunch part-time supervisors and quit complaining.

All normal adults protect children by instinct, even teachers. Teachers cannot be everywhere at the same time. Yes, kids do and will get hurt at school. Children have been protected so much, that most school grounds don’t have structures to play on. They have been removed. About all teachers can do have the kids run around a track during recess. Actually not a bad idea when you think of it. A good vigorous two mile run daily would be very beneficial.

Teachers sometimes suggest that a disruptive child needs to be put on Ritalin. Ritalin at last! You the parent send a rude, nasty, undisciplined child to school and expect the teacher to control IT. The kid is often pumped up with a load of sugar due to poor diet. There are hyper-active children, and instead of proper parenting, the expedient is the administration of Ritalin. Some children are totally out of control, sugar induced highs, and lousy parental discipline is often the issue. If the system was private, and you, the parent, were paying directly, the school would probably throw your child out. In many cases no self respecting school would take your child at any price. Public school teachers have to put up with one or two children disrupting the other 15 to 30 children in the class daily. The Pharmaceutical Companies have come up with Ritalin. Doctors subscribe it- not teachers. Peace in the classroom prevails. It is the chemical equivalent of the now condemned lobotomy (surgical severance of nerve fibers connecting the frontal lobes to the thalamus for the relief of some mental disorders). A disruptive child needs all kind of inputs mostly parental, and a small bit from the teacher. You as a parent have a duty to send a properly fed, well mannered, well disciplined, child to school daily-get with it and quit blaming and trying to hold the teacher responsible for your short comings.

Professional Development Day! Teachers are in no way the same or even similar to Police, Doctors, Ambulance attendants, or Nurses. Yes, they work for public institutions, but a teacher’s role is not in anyway an immediate threat to life. I suspect PDD’s mean the lack of a baby sitting service, when the school is not open, when you, the parent, want to work or whatever. Teachers are not baby sitters. This fight has been going on for years. If you want a baby sitting service at school pay the money, and hire a service to monitor your child on school property until you get home and hour or two later. Again, teachers are not and should not be used as baby sitters. What teachers do on PDD is between the board and the teachers. I strongly suggest they need a break no matter what they do.

When the weather is bad and school buses are cancelled, teachers are still supposed to get to school even at risk to their lives. This is patently unfair. Usually the school is kept open for children near the school. The schools become a blatant baby sitting service, since the working parent will often drop Little Johnny and Sweet Mary off. It is most convenient and expedient. Again, school teachers are not supervisors for a baby sitting service. Parents want this service, pay for it and organize it. Baby sitting should be completely separate from teaching. This area has not been fully addressed in a society where often both parents work. The baby sitting problem has been dumped on the teachers causing much bitterness and incrimination.

The mentally handicapped are often main- streamed into the classroom. A screaming, cackle constantly in one corner of the classroom is not inductive to the imparting of knowledge. Many of the handicapped should not be in the main-stream classroom. Many should be in separate, well run areas. Sorry folks that is reality. The parents of normal children should be screaming bloody murder about this practice of main-streaming everyone, suitable or not. How the hell a teacher can do the job and kids absorb, with a constant interruptive presence in one area of the classroom is beyond comprehension. Sometimes there is a disruptive noisy medley meaning there will be more than one disruptive presence. Tough call, but in many cases they should not be in the main-stream.

Most teachers are overworked. The sheer volume associated with grading, which in many cases has to be done at home means the equivalent of overtime without pay. The salary paid should be such that teachers do not feel imposed upon by supplying this service or appropiate time should be allotted each day for the teachers to accomplish this task. Teaching is not 9-5 as and most salaried jobs are not, but the pay, perks, time off must be sufficient to reflect this.

Salary:

I know teachers are paid a portion of their salary based on their educational qualifications. It doesn't matter what level they are teaching. This means in practice, two teachers teaching the same grade in the same school and the same pupils can have very different salaries. This I considered a bit peculiar, but felt the negotiators must have had some obscure reason for this practice, which eludes me. It is very difficult to pay teachers based on performance levels. Actually nobody ever evaluates them in practice. The principals come from the same mold, usually on the last legs of their career, and most only want peace at any cost. Evaluations are, more often than not, based on the number of conflicts a teacher has with parents. This creates a submissive relationship, which hides problems rather than solving them.

Money is important to everyone, including teachers. I support increases for teachers, I have enough knowledge to know many are not paid adequately, and a realistic pay scales are non-existent. The only time they get any attention, with reference to pay is when they use their Union clout.

The bitter acrimony regarding pay and pay scales needs much discussion and eventually a realistic resolution. Teachers are very important to our society, they need strong community support. A fight every two or so years when a contract expires is simply not the way to go. Every nut, including me gets, in the act; since everybody thinks they know all about education, since we all went to school at one time or another.

I say always give the teachers the benefit of the doubt. They need public support. They have a rough row to hoe ( for the rural folk).

Durgan.

[Yodeler]

Almost everything we were told was true.

Which of these "truths" impressed & aroused you the most?

Almost  nothing they were told was true.

What aroused ME the most were the lies about the Americans' mistreatment of blacks & Jews in the sixties. "That's not fair" I thought.

And the lies about the HUGE disparities between the rich and the poor. "That's not fair" I thought.

But by the midst of my rebelious teens I knew perfectly well that those were just Communist LIES LIES THE VICIOUS LIES!

[Guest eureka]

Teachers are not well paid, Argus. They are one of the lower paid and most highly qualified professions. Once, teachers in Canada were the highest paid in the world: now, they are not close to the top.

That is because so many like you like to dump on the profession without any clue as to the teachers' life or role. You make it easy for politicians to scapegoat the profession.

Durgan's long post contained mostly accurate perceptions.

[Durgan]

This is an E mail from a retired teacher friend, who supply teaches periodically, received today, 13 Sep 2005. I won't mention the board, but I am sure many Supply Teachers can identify with this scenario.

I know from experience how academia is mistreated. Not only are those who teach get low wages, but I have been substitute teaching. I get paid $60/day, which is $5/hour---less than min. wage. I am expected to do the same work as a teacher (classroom control, follow lessons, leave detailed review of materials taught and student behavior, record tardiness and missing students, etc.). I could go flip burgers and get paid $7/hour, but being a community caring person, I give up the $2 to serve my community.

Durgan.

[Yaro]

They are already paid generously - too generously. Anyone with the right personality traits can take a course manual and teach most subjects fairly well.

It ain't rocket science.

Teachers have seen an effective cut in pay of 50% since 1993.

Why do people assume that they can read lips if they have never tried it?

And their regular strikes with signs which demand "More money, less work" seldom evoke much sympathy.

See above. Most teachers would be thrilled with a cola as would the teachers union, that’s 9% btw.

Especially given the number of students who graduate without the ability to read or write, who know virtually nothing about history or geography, and whose math skills consist entirely of punching buttons into a calculator.

So let me get this straight, you blame the teachers for massive cuts in funding, massive increases in classroom size, putting special needs students in regular classrooms, cutting virtually all the supplementary positions such as librarians?

Of my children go to private school, there education combined costs me more then the average Canadian makes. This is where the aristocracy is born.

Almost everything we were told was true. Almost nothing they were told was true.

And we are temporarily friends, until Putin succeeds in leeching the last dregs of democracy from their system, crushes all dissent, and starts seriously rebuilding the military. Which I suspect won't be too long in the future.

Wanna bet? You tell me what year did the first private corporation open in the USSR? How large was the budget for the KGB compared to the CIA? I remember enough of the cold war to be able to compare it to history and laugh at the stupidity that was fed to me in an attempt to insure my indoctrination. We were every bit as indoctrinated as they were.

The have a saying in Russia now, the capitalists have managed to do what 70 years of communist rule never accomplished; they made communism look good.

On the topic of essential services, these are supposed to be reserved for life and death jobs; doctors, police, firemen, water, and power. These are essential services, jobs that need to be done to maintain society on the most basic of levels. Teachers aren't even remotely essential service.

The fact of the matter is that the teachers in BC have been legislated back essentially for 12 years now. The public school system is basically in shambles and this may very well end up with a general strike which would insure a great deal of devastation to the BC economy.

If the ports in BC go down again it could literally mean hundreds of billions of lost dollars over the next decade.

[Yodeler]

Wanna bet? You tell me what year did the first private corporation open in the USSR? How large was the budget for the KGB compared to the CIA? I remember enough of the cold war to be able to compare it to history and laugh at the stupidity that was fed to me in an attempt to insure my indoctrination. We were every bit as indoctrinated as they were.

The have a saying in Russia now, the capitalists have managed to do what 70 years of communist rule never accomplished; they made communism look good.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What does that have to do with striking teachers?

[Argus]

Almost everything we were told was true.

Which of these "truths" impressed & aroused you the most?

None of them particularly impressed or aroused me. I did learn that the east bloc was a miserable, poverty-stricken tyranny, though.

Almost  nothing they were told was true.

What aroused ME the most were the lies about the Americans' mistreatment of blacks & Jews in the sixties. "That's not fair" I thought.

The odd thing is that no matter how badly the Blacks were treated in the sixties they were still better off than any minority in the Soviet Union. The Jews were far better off in the US than in any East Bloc country.

And the lies about the HUGE disparities between the rich and the poor. "That's not fair" I thought.

Certainly was and is a disparity. What they didn't point out was that Blacks living on welfare in Harlem were richer than most Soviet citizens, and had more to eat, with better shelter.

[Argus]

Teachers are not well paid, Argus. They are one of the lower paid and most highly qualified professions. Once, teachers in Canada were the highest paid in the world: now, they are not close to the top.

Unless things have changed a whole lot in the last year - which is about how long since I looked into their rates, they make more than teachers almost anywhere else, and their pay rate puts them among the top pay earners in Canada. Besides, I'm not really sure they belong in the same category as professionals. You can't walk in off the street and be a lawyer, doctor or architect. You can walk in off the street, and teach from the course outline with little or no training. And, depending on your personality, you might be among the best teachers in that school.

[Argus]

This is an E mail from a  retired teacher friend, who supply teaches periodically, received today, 13 Sep 2005. I won't mention the board, but I am sure many Supply Teachers can identify with this scenario.

I know from experience how academia is mistreated.  Not only are those who teach get  low wages, but I have been substitute teaching.  I get paid $60/day, which is $5/hour---less than min. wage.  I am expected to do the same work as a teacher (classroom control, follow lessons, leave detailed review of materials taught and student behavior, record tardiness and missing students, etc.).  I could go flip burgers and get paid $7/hour, but being a community caring person, I give up the $2 to serve my community.

Durgan.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

First of all, unless this person is teaching twelve hour days, he's not getting $5. Perhaps they're in need of remedial math skills? Second, I don't know any board which pays supply teachers $60 a day. The pay rates for "occasional teachers" in Ottawa Carleton is $169.21 for teachers with degrees (almost all) and $146.37 for those without degrees.

[Argus]

They are already paid generously - too generously. Anyone with the right personality traits can take a course manual and teach most subjects fairly well.

It ain't rocket science.

Teachers have seen an effective cut in pay of 50% since 1993.

They get too much money for what they do. Especially given how many people could do it.

Especially given the number of students who graduate without the ability to read or write, who know virtually nothing about history or geography, and whose math skills consist entirely of punching buttons into a calculator.

So let me get this straight, you blame the teachers for massive cuts in funding, massive increases in classroom size, putting special needs students in regular classrooms, cutting virtually all the supplementary positions such as librarians?

Canada spends more on its educational system than almost anywhere on Earth. Most of that, unfortunately, goes to hefty renumeration for teachers and "educational professionals" infesting school boards and ministries. Most of the latter aren't worth the paper their degrees are written on, and the former do far too much whining about their work-load, which is considerably less than in most other countries, for me to have any real sympathy.

[fellowtraveller]

Teachers are not well paid, Argus. They are one of the lower paid and most highly qualified professions. Once, teachers in Canada were the highest paid in the world: now, they are not close to the top.

Rubbish. Teachers are paid adequately. A teacher with a normal 4 year ed degree and a few years experience in Alberta will earn around $60K per year. And most of them definitely do earn it, teaching is a difficult, demanding and stressful job if you are one of the many who work very hard at it.

I don't belive the $60 per day figure for supply (substitute) teachers. They average about $200/day here, but have few benefits. Full time teachers have extraordinary benefit packages., among the best anywhere.

[Durgan]

Hide the evidence,deny the facts,use opinions based on nothing, shoot the messenger is what I see in this forum.

There are all kinds of references (opinions) referring to teachers salaries. If anybody has experiences of just what the pay rates are in various boards let's have them to help clear the air.

Education in the public schools system is a shambles. Fact, about 30,000 about 30% of the students drop out yearly. Ontario is applying another fix (King Report). This is a fix to the fix to the fix. Strong meaningful debate with opinions indeed, but let's start by defining the facts.

If its a miracle any opinion will suffice, if its a fact then evidence is required.

Durgan.

[Guest eureka]

This a subject that brings out the meanest in people, Durgan. Why is beyond me. Most kids hate some of their school experiences but you think that they would grow up and move beyond childish "blame the teacher."

Teachers do not earn $60k per year after a few years. If they did, my son-in-law and daughter would not be so carefully watching the pennies.

Teachers have one of the most stressful jobs around and the workload is onerous. It amuses me to hear the "anyone could do it" refrain. Most would not last a week because of the demands of the job AND the intellectual demands both of the profession and of the nature of the work.

It is people like these who are responsible for the sad state of education. They are responsible for the Harris's and Campbells making teachers a political football and an excuse for the politicising of education. Education standards have indeed fallen everywhere. The fault lies with these excuses for parents and citizems who allow this Fascist style scapegoating and who resent the efforts of teachers and educators who struggle to make the schools something more than a child sitting service.

[Argus]

Hide the evidence,deny the facts,use opinions based on nothing, shoot the messenger is what I see in this forum.

There are all kinds of references (opinions) referring to teachers salaries. If anybody has experiences of just what the pay rates are in various boards let's have them to help clear the air.

I just did that. So now you can post which board pays $60 a day. And your post is almost entirely opinon, so you don't get to whine about others posting theirs.

Education in the public schools system is a shambles. Fact, about 30,000 about 30% of the students drop out yearly. Ontario is applying another fix (King Report). This is a fix to the fix to the fix. Strong meaningful debate with opinions indeed, but let's start by defining the facts.

One of the problems is there is virtually no real debate for the teachers and their colleagues in the teaching industry insist that no one has anything to contribute unless they'e got a string of letters after their name to lend their opinions the proper credentials. But the fact is the education system has been in the control of teaching professionals for the last thirty years. If it is in a shambles it is because of their incompetence.

[Argus]

Teachers have one of the most stressful jobs around and the workload is onerous.

I hear this refrain fairly often. Stressful? Compared to what? Compared to policing, where you could get shot at any time, or fire fighting? How about compared to driving a taxi, where your next fare could stick a knife in your ribs? How about being a doctor, where one mistake costs a life, or an electrician, where a misstep causes a fire, or costs you your life? How about all those people who can be fired at the drop of a hat if they screw up or displease their bosses or a major client? How about an air traffic controller, who can guide two aircraft into each other? How about someone analysing contracts or client agreements, who can cost his company millions if he misses the potential of a single line of text? The workload is onerous? How many people in this country are working two jobs, both poorly paid, in a desperate effort to make ends meet? Taxi drivers routinely work 12 hour days, and they are far from alone. Most people in this country get two weeks of holidays. I'm lucky in that I get three, and that will grow to four in a few more years. Teachers get what - eight? Ten?

It amuses me to hear the "anyone could do it" refrain. Most would not last a week because of the demands of the job AND the intellectual demands both of the profession and of the nature of the work.

Again. Spare us. We all know teachers who sleepwalk through classes, who use the same tests and the same outline year after year after year, who bore their students senseless. We've all had more of them than good ones. And there is no punishment for incompetence or laziness among teachers. Intellectual demands? Follow the course outline. There ya go.

It is people like these who are responsible for the sad state of education.

That is nonsense. The sad state of education is due to all the fad theories which have emerged from teaching professionals over the last thirty years, all geared to socializing and reassuring children rather than actually teaching them. I mean, "Whole Word" alone is responsible for a generation of graduates who can hardly write coherently.

They are responsible for the Harris's and Campbells making teachers a political football and an excuse for the politicising of education.

No, years and years of parents frustrated and appalled at the poor performance of their children, of children bringing home A-s who can't spell, read, write or do basic math are what was responsible for parents finally seizing on Harris as someone who might stand up to arrogant teaching professionals and tell them their idiotic theories weren't working.

[Yaro]

I hear this refrain fairly often. Stressful? Compared to what? Compared to policing, where you could get shot at any time, or fire fighting? How about compared to driving a taxi, where your next fare could stick a knife in your ribs? How about being a doctor, where one mistake costs a life, or an electrician, where a misstep causes a fire, or costs you your life? How about all those people who can be fired at the drop of a hat if they screw up or displease their bosses or a major client? How about an air traffic controller, who can guide two aircraft into each other? How about someone analysing contracts or client agreements, who can cost his company millions if he misses the potential of a single line of text? The workload is onerous? How many people in this country are working two jobs, both poorly paid, in a desperate effort to make ends meet? Taxi drivers routinely work 12 hour days, and they are far from alone. Most people in this country get two weeks of holidays. I'm lucky in that I get three, and that will grow to four in a few more years. Teachers get what - eight? Ten?

I have to agree, teachers don't have jobs which are any more stressful then a host of others. The general stress level of every job has risen dramatically.

Again. Spare us. We all know teachers who sleepwalk through classes, who use the same tests and the same outline year after year after year, who bore their students senseless. We've all had more of them than good ones. And there is no punishment for incompetence or laziness among teachers. Intellectual demands? Follow the course outline. There ya go.

You are dramatically oversimplifying what teachers do, teaching is not any more easy then most other jobs which require the same amount of education and they make less then most people with jobs in that class.

That is nonsense. The sad state of education is due to all the fad theories which have emerged from teaching professionals over the last thirty years, all geared to socializing and reassuring children rather than actually teaching them. I mean, "Whole Word" alone is responsible for a generation of graduates who can hardly write coherently.

There are many reasons for the state of our education system but suggesting that parents and outside organizations interfere less now then they did 30 years ago is patently untrue and combined with the massive funding cuts the results were fairly predictable.

No, years and years of teachers frustrated and appalled at the poor performance of their children, of children bringing home A-s who can't spell, read, write or do basic math are what was responsible for parents finally seizing on Harris as someone who might stand up to arrogant teaching professionals and tell them their idiotic theories weren't working.

Once again, parents have been becoming more and more involved in school. What you are suggesting simply isn't born out by the evidence, if parent involvement improved the educational outcomes then the system should be in far better shape then it is.

Teacher pay is different across the country, in Alberta and Ontario it is the highest and in BC it is one of the lowest (when adjusted for cost of living).

Teachers Salaries

The odd thing is that no matter how badly the Blacks were treated in the sixties they were still better off than any minority in the Soviet Union. The Jews were far better off in the US than in any East Bloc country.

Based on what? What were you told about life in the eastern bloc?

Certainly was and is a disparity. What they didn't point out was that Blacks living on welfare in Harlem were richer than most Soviet citizens, and had more to eat, with better shelter.

You have absolutely no basis upon which to compare the two. This is ideological propoganda. There is a large part of the Russian population moving towards the communist ideology, why do you think that is?

[Concerned]

A great website for information and discussion forums on the BC Teachers Strike can be found at :

www.parentsspeakout.citymax.com

[Guest eureka]

Workplace stress stusies have concluded that teaching is the third most stressful profession. Any who think it is not can have had no contact with teachers and teaching. Teachers have one of the highest rates of mental breakdown. I am not going to give a long dissertation on that since it just is so and any familiarity with the schools of today would make that obvious.

AS for the capabilities of teachers, I recall from a psychology course I once took some pertinent statistics.

The US Army profile of IQ's by occupation gave the first few rankings as:

1. Accountants:

2. Teachers.

3. Doctors:

4. Lawyers.

That was during the Vietnam war when it would reflect the civilian population quite closely.

For the stress, conditions, and remuneration, there some intresting facts. First, approximately one third of graduates of teachers colleges never enter the classroom after graduation. They have seen enough in their practise teaching assignments.

Another third leave the profession in the first five years. They leave for the greener and less stressful fields of business and other professions - such as law.

I think that any who want to debate the standing of teachers should first make some effort to educate themselves about the subjest. Teachers are too important to be left to the mercies of politicians, ignorant or jealous members of the public; or those with large chips on their shoulders.

A good place to start might be with some Neil Postman books.

[Yodeler]

I did learn that the east bloc was a miserable, poverty-stricken tyranny, though.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The average net wage in the east bloc country where I resided was around 1500 a month.

A half a litre of premium beer in a nice bar set you back 1.20

Cigarettes ... 1.60

A good meal (schnitzel, goulash, chicken paprika etc.) in a nice bar or restaurant ... 8.50

Rent ... 200

And, since there were no sizable differences between men's wallets girls judged you strictly by your wit & good looks.

I had a GREAT time there!