49% Canuks Want Petroleum Resources Nationalized

[Riverwind]

Nationalization is obviously the correct choice for a lot of people.

If Canada were to nationalize our oil industry how would that hurt the Canadians who work and live in Alberta?  The jobs would still be there, and it is not like the oil is going to go anywhere else. This whole issue is just a tug of war between Ottawa and Alberta governments I think, and why should the profits on our Canadian resources go to foreign corporations?

Three reasons:

1) Crown corporations quickly turn inefficient enterprises that make poor investment decisions. If a union gets involved then the crown corporation becomes nothing more than an expensive social program where people get hired and can never be fired.

2) It would cost _a lot_ of money to buy the companies: whether this money comes by issuing new debt or from taxes the money has to come from somewhere. What services would you be willing to cut in order to buy the companies?

3) The gov't has the power to tax oil so the gov't can tax as much of the oil profits as it wants. So why should it buy the oil companies when it can get all the benefits other ways?

[Toro]

Nationalization is obviously the correct choice for a lot of people.

If Canada were to nationalize our oil industry how would that hurt the Canadians who work and live in Alberta?  The jobs would still be there, and it is not like the oil is going to go anywhere else. It seems like this whole issue is just a tug of war between Ottawa and Alberta governments which really represent the corporate community, and why should the profits on our Canadian resources go to foreign corporations?

The question is, what would be the point of nationalizing? There are two answers. One, that "Canadians own the oil" or "Canadians should benefit from the oil", etc. But that could be said about any business then. Energy exploration and production, and refining are risky businesses. Its not the business of the government of Canada to risk Canadians' savings in such a venture. The price of energy is booming now, but won't day it won't. You should decide where you want to put your savings, not the government.

The other argument is that it would keep oil prices down. Well, that should be obvious to why it would hurt Alberta. The taxation scheme is at least in part based on the price of energy. If energy prices are kept artificially low, then Alberta loses revenues.

Finally, the argument back in the 1970s for the NEP was that Alberta was benefiting from a cartel, OPEC, keeping the prices high. (That's only partly true BTW.) Thus, why should Canadians have to pay an "artificially" high price. That argument doesnt' hold today because the price is being set by the market, not the cartel.

[mirror]

No it is not about any business, it is about essential services or products. Why should we not be controling these things? The are risks walking across the street but we all do it. If as had been said many countries control their resources. Canada surely can as well. The major risk to Canada is that most of the oil companies are housed next door.

We all need energy, and I'm not talking about power bars, for survival whether it be gasoline to go to work, electricity and natural gas to heat and light our homes, etc. In other words it is a cative market as everyone needs energy. We need to keep our profits at home for Canadians on any essential products and services.

[Riverwind]

We all need energy, and I'm not talking about power bars, for survival whether it be gasoline to go to work, electricity and natural gas to heat and light our homes, etc. In other words it is a cative market as everyone needs energy. We need to keep our profits at home for Canadians on any essential products and services.

The oil companies only make the profits that the gov't allows. If the gov't wants a share it can increase taxes. The gov't does not need to own the companies to ensure that Canadians benefit.

[Toro]

No it is not about any business, it is about essential services or products. Why should we not be controling these things? The are risks walking across the street but we all do it. If as had been said many countries control their resources.  Canada surely can as well. The major risk to Canada is that most of the oil companies are housed next door.

We all need energy, and I'm not talking about power bars, for survival whether it be gasoline to go to work, electricity and natural gas to heat and light our homes, etc. In other words it is a cative market as everyone needs energy. We need to keep our profits at home for Canadians on any essential products and services.

Food is more essential than energy. Why shouldn't the government buy all the farmland, all the food processors and all the grocery stores then?

Clothing is essential. Why not nationalize all aspects of the clothing industry?

So is housing. The government should own all the raw materials, all the building supplies, and all the real estate in Canada.

Transportation is also important. The government should own all the car, bus, train, etc. companies.

There is no reason for the government to own anything in the energy business, outside perhaps of monopoly utilities.

[mirror]

The oil companies only make the profits that the gov't allows. If the gov't wants a share it can increase taxes. The gov't does not need to own the companies to ensure that Canadians benefit.

The theory is right, but the reality is wrong however, as our governments are in bed with the corporations, and you don't increase taxes on your buddies if you can help it, do you?

When I say governments, I'm actually saying the PMO, where these kind of decisions are actually made, at least in Ottawa.

[Riverwind]

The theory is right, but the reality is wrong however, as our governments are in bed with the corporations, and you don't increase taxes on your buddies if you can help it, do you?

Following that logic then the gov't would never take the oil away from their corporate buddies which means this entire discussion is a waste of time.

If the gov't has the will to nationalise oil companies then it could also have the will to tax them more. So there is no need to nationalize.

[mirror]

Following that logic then the gov't would never take the oil away from their corporate buddies which means this entire discussion is a waste of time.

If the gov't has the will to nationalise oil companies then it could also have the will to tax them more. So there is no need to nationalize.

Once again your theory is fine, however in reality the government may be forced to act to stay in power. 50% of Canadians already want some kind of nationalization If it gets much higher the government may be forced to nationalize. It seems like the government may have waited too long to control the profits of their big huile buddies, and now the decision may be taken away from the government if they wish to remain in power.

[Canuck E Stan]

If those who want to nationalize natural resources for the benifit of all Canadians feel it is necessary to take over the oil industry, how is it that not a word is said about Ontario Hydro and Quebec Hydro.

Why is there no federal tax on Ontario's Hydro and Nuclear Power as well as Quebec's Hydro Power.

I also believe that Quebec hydro pays no federal tax from resources it takes from it's "now to eternity rip off contract" with Labrador/Newfoundland.

Why don't those who want to nationalize go after the Electricity market in the East "for the benefit of Canadians" because after all it is "our" resource? A heck of a lot of power is pumped into the US from Canada and the government could tax this resource just as well as the oil. For the benefit of Canadians,of course.

[mirror]

CES

I agree that it should be country wide, and I assume most Canadians would as well. But what's the point of Ontario Hydro and Quebec Hydro as they are already in government hands? The Que-NL dispute is another issue.

I think the federal government should give the provinces the option of either nationalizing the energy industry, otherwise the federales will do it.

Is electricity in private hands anywhere in Canada? And what rates do consumers pay compared to the government run ones? If it is anything at all like auti insurance, I can pretty well guarantee you that the private ones will charge consumers more.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear Sparhawk,

Your replies have all been excellent and commendable. Interestingly though, this one

Mexico made national control of oil companies a key exclusion in NAFTA.

got me thinking. George H. W. Bush was influential in PEMEX back in the 70's, what is to say he does not still hold sway?

[Mr.Canada]

Yes kick out big oil and bring under the control of our governemnt so we can have access to cheap fuel and sell the sxcess to other nation for a huge profit which we can use to fix our roads and into research. The rest can go raising the quality of life for real Canadians.

[bluegreen]

If those who want to nationalize natural resources for the benifit of all Canadians feel it is necessary to take over the oil industry, how is it that not a word is said about Ontario Hydro and Quebec Hydro.

Why is there no federal tax on Ontario's Hydro and Nuclear Power as well as Quebec's Hydro Power.

I also believe that Quebec hydro pays no federal tax from resources it takes from it's "now to eternity rip off contract" with Labrador/Newfoundland.

Why don't those who want to nationalize go after the Electricity market in the East "for the benefit of Canadians" because after all it is "our" resource? A heck of a lot of power is pumped into the US from Canada and the government could tax this resource just as well as the oil. For the benefit of Canadians,of course.

Where to start? How about, get your facts straight. Ontario Hydro, and Quebec Hydro were formed by nationalising generating and transmission companies. They are both state owned. Nuclear power, and power generation are to a small extent both being shifted into private hands. The Nuclear is worrying, because by it's very nature, a corporation has limited liability. I really wonder if the taxpayer won't be left holding the baby when it starts becoming more expensive to decommission plants, and dispose of spent fuel, that will remain poisionous for thousands of years, or will the private corporations that enjoy the revenues today really put aside the $$ to deal with waste containment in the year 3,000 AD?

I get my electricity bill every month. Lo and Behold, GST is collected. Last I checked, that was a Federal tax.

As far as the export revenues from Hydro power, governments don't just tax them, they put the whole bloody shooting match into their pockets. So it goes into provincial coffers, and not Federal. So what? It's called division of powers. Why did I even bother to respond? There wasn't a single worthy sentence in this comment, other than the fact it was irritating enough to delay my going to bed for 10 minutes.

As far as nationalising Oil and Gas,... well another truly stupid idea. There is absolutely no way I trust a Parliamentary democracy to do anything but screw it up. Regulate, sure. Tax the hell out of it, definitely! It belongs to US, not the guy who sticks a straw into a likely spot. Reward him for sticking straws into the right spot, but not too much. Don't forget to charge him a hefty price for the damage (s)he inflicts on the commons while he's at it.

[blueblood]

Where to start? How about, get your facts straight. Ontario Hydro, and Quebec Hydro were formed by nationalising generating and transmission companies. They are both state owned. Nuclear power, and power generation are to a small extent both being shifted into private hands. The Nuclear is worrying, because by it's very nature, a corporation has limited liability. I really wonder if the taxpayer won't be left holding the baby when it starts becoming more expensive to decommission plants, and dispose of spent fuel, that will remain poisionous for thousands of years, or will the private corporations that enjoy the revenues today really put aside the $$ to deal with waste containment in the year 3,000 AD?

I get my electricity bill every month. Lo and Behold, GST is collected. Last I checked, that was a Federal tax.

As far as the export revenues from Hydro power, governments don't just tax them, they put the whole bloody shooting match into their pockets. So it goes into provincial coffers, and not Federal. So what? It's called division of powers. Why did I even bother to respond? There wasn't a single worthy sentence in this comment, other than the fact it was irritating enough to delay my going to bed for 10 minutes.

As far as nationalising Oil and Gas,... well another truly stupid idea. There is absolutely no way I trust a Parliamentary democracy to do anything but screw it up. Regulate, sure. Tax the hell out of it, definitely! It belongs to US, not the guy who sticks a straw into a likely spot. Reward him for sticking straws into the right spot, but not too much. Don't forget to charge him a hefty price for the damage (s)he inflicts on the commons while he's at it.

In all fairness, the oil belongs to the person holding mineral rights, that's either the province or the landowner fortunate enough to have them. As for screwing the guy over for "putting straws in the ground", what a dumb idea. That guy is taking a huge financial risk drilling for oil and is spending a lot of money and expects a return on investment not to mention compensation for providing a service. People value oil highly and value those who get the oil out of the ground, hence the high pay. Cooking the golden goose is stupid NDP policy that is evil.

[madmax]

Yes kick out big oil and bring under the control of our governemnt so we can have access to cheap fuel and sell the sxcess to other nation for a huge profit which we can use to fix our roads and into research. The rest can go raising the quality of life for real Canadians.

commie

Edited November 25, 2008 by madmax

[Mr.Canada]

commie

Nationalist.