Toyota creates more problems for Conservatives

[Renegade]

Doctors and nurses are educated paid for mainly by the public tax system.

Why should the public train these people and then have them go and work in the private sector for the rich

I see. So by your argument they shouldn't be free to leave the country and go to the US either. What do you propose? Why not shackle them so they don't escape?

[Argus]

Tell me again what the difference is with medical care?  Other than the fact that it won't be limited strictly to the rich because your public insurance will still work in private facilities.

Besides, isn't private education more dangerous to our society?  Doesn't that mean only the wealthy will get higher quality education which will perpetuate the old addage, "the rich get richer".  Shouldn't everyone be afforded the same educational opportunities?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There is a big difference between medical care and education. One you go to a hospital for, and the other a school.

Uhmmm.....

However, if you go to a public hospital or a public school, it should be paid for through taxes.  If you go to a private hospital or a private school, it should be paid for from your private pocket.

Okay. But I think the whole idea of "two-tier" is that there should be private hospitals and clinics which you pay for yourself. Are you saying you agree to that?

If the rich want to fly to Australia to have a kangaroo pouch put on their stomach, let them... but they should pay the entire cost... not one penny for public money should go towards it.

But suppose they're instead going to Buffalo for cancer treatment? Please let me know the difference between a middle class man who chooses to go to Buffalo for a quick MRI instead of waiting for six months here, and a man who is sent to Buffalo by the hospital because they are overworked and can't fit him in. In one case OHIP pays everything, right? Are you opposed to the government sending people to the US for needed medical care which we can't provide in a timely manner? And if not, why should it make you indignant that someone makes the decision to go themselves?

And just to add to this. Let me give you another example from real life. A friend of mine broke his wrist and it wasn't set right. Now, he needs to get an MRI but he'd have to wait six months to get it through OHIP. As he is a tradesman, Workers Compensation paid $800 for him to go to a private clinic in Quebec and get the MRI immediately. How do you feel about that?

[Argus]

The following are the 5 criteria for the Canada Health Act:

(a) public administration;

( comprehensiveness;

© universality;

(d) portability; and

(e) accessibility.

Interesting. Except that, in many cases, it is not comprehensive, nor portable, and not accessible. So much for that.

[Argus]

Private represents and/or breeds intolerance by greedy people.

Here are the Conservative definitions for health care:

Progressive Conservatives

Under a two-tier system, Canadians who were wealthy enough could purchase quick access to quality health care from profit-making providers, while less wealthy Canadians would have to wait _ for lower quality care.

The privately funded component of a two-tier system would siphon off resources from the public side, as more highly skilled professionals would be drawn by profit.

Canadian Alliance

Two-tier health care exists when there are two separate medical care systems providing essential services _ one system that is accessible and publicly funded and another system that is private and allows one to pay for faster and preferential treatment.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think when you state this as party definition you should add something to the affect that this is YOUR interpretation, and that the party in question would certainly not agree.

[Argus]

This two tier crap has been spewing of the neocon discredited Fraser Institute for years.

Discredited in what way? In that you don't like their findings?

Doctors and nurses are educated paid for mainly by the public tax system.

Why should the public train these people and then have them go and work in the private sector

Engineers, architects, lawyers, businessmen, accountants -nearly everyone, in fact, has their education paid largely by the public tax system. Your argument is invalid unless you believe everyone should work for government.

for the rich, when the middle class and the poor have paid for their training,

Why do you persist in believing two-tier health care will benefit the rich? There is an overwhelming amount of evidence to show that the rich could not possibly care less. They already have access to instant medical service, either here or in the US. You will never find a rich man waiting months or even weeks for a needed medical procedure or diagnostic test. NEVER. The people who would benefit from private medical care are the middle-class. And, of course, if the introduction eases waiting lines and pressure on the public system - the poor.

[err]

You're absolutely incorrect, just plain wrong.  Public health insurance is there to allow people who can't afford it to have the most serious care paid.  Public insurance already pays for private care in the United States for those who need it, as I've pointed out earlier.  What's even worse is that it pays for procedures like having one's stomach stapled as well as some cosmetic surgery.

So, you're just flat out wrong about public funds not paying for private service.

The public system is the "company store" that we all pay into with our taxes. The government will occasionally send patients to the US for life-saving treatment when our public system cannot accomodate in a timely fashion. What the government needs to do is fix our services so that they meet all of our requirements.

You have some deluded idea about what public health care is.... It is not a system for the poor, as your verbal diatribe would suggest. It is a system for everyone. And in its inception, there were conditions laid down so that Conservatives and other meathead couldn't bastardize the system... read the following quote.

"it is to be administered and operated on a non-profit basis by a public authority appointed or designated by the government of the province;"

Furthermore, should there be a two-tier healthcare system in Canada, it will go towards paying for care in those private clinics as well.  Why?  Because you're paying into PUBLIC INSURANCE as well as the public clinics. 

And your point is ???

We have a public system, paid for by public money. If you want to use a system that is not a public system, it shouldn't be paid for with public money.... Don't you get it ????

The only problem now is that you're not allowed to give your money to an institution that's not publicly funded.

Rephrased, you are upset that you cannot give THE PUBLIC's money to an institution that's not publicly funded. I have no problem with you going to the USA and blowing your OWN money on whatever you want. What sensible Ontarians don't want is the public's tax dollars being diverted from the public system into a private system. That will leave less money in the public system, and hence, cut the quality of the public service, which will futher exacerbate the situation...

[err]

The rich aren't allowed to build a pool.

(He means health care system for the rich)

Not with PUBLIC money.... they're not..... With their OWN money, nobody's stopping them...

Yeah, see, it's not about using public funds to build private businesses......contrary to what the NDP believes.

Pass the joint... maybe it'll help me understand you ....

It (the purse) needs a strong central control, and our medical system needs to

"be administered and operated on a non-profit basis by a public authority appointed or designated by the government of the province;"

as per the terms of funding of our health-care system.

(thanx mirror)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You're absolutely right, our public health care system should be run that way....and the government should allow private hospitals to open up next door so you can have a choice of where to go.  Your public insurance, which is a seperate entity, should still cover medical necessities and be valid at the public or private hospital so everyone has an equal ground for critical care.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Read the quote about the conditions for financing of our public health care... If you don't understand it, ask your mom to explain what it says. Especially note the words "non-profit", and "administerd by... public authority"....

[Canuck E Stan]

"It should be obvious, that if you pay for several (say 10 or 15 different language shcools, and 5 or 6 different religions) different systems, and administrative staff for each of them, that none of them will be adequately funded."-ERR

In Canada we pride ourselves to be a multicultural country that gives everyone the opportunity to develop their culture within our borders.From your statement you are telling people they can't do that unless they pay for it themselves.We take in refugees and immigrants that don't have the funds to do this, yet they want their children to know their languages and religion. Why can't they be allowed to be assimulated into Canadian society through the schools they feel most comfortable in? Immigrants who go into public school system end up dropping out because they can't cope with the drastic cultural change. ESL becomes a burden on the public school, and in the end these kids end up without any education,and thus may become a burden to the society their parents had so much hope for.

I gather in your thinking,there should only be one way and one place to educate people when public money is being used(even though all of us are the publlic).Sorry Err, but in the real world-Different strokes for different folks,and that's for everything that is done in our society.You can't pidgeon hole people to think the way you do.

[cybercoma]

This two tier crap has been spewing of the neocon discredited Fraser Institute for years.

Doctors and nurses are educated paid for mainly by the public tax system.

Why should the public train these people and then have them go and work in the private sector for the rich, when the middle class and the poor have paid for their training, through our taxes going to fund universities?  All two tier will lead to is the draining of all the best staff from our publically funded system.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Why should anyone go to public schools and universities and enter into private sector jobs? Your advocacy for a communist canada is insane.

[mirror]

Right wingers always show their true colours. When they lose the debates as they invariably do, they begin to start with their extremist comments like commie, communism, etc. Grow up!

[cybercoma]

The public system is the "company store" that we all pay into with our taxes.  The government will occasionally send patients to the US for life-saving treatment when our public system cannot accomodate in a timely fashion.  What the government needs to do is fix our services so that they meet all of our requirements. 

Actually, it's not occassional, it's pretty much all the time.

and yes, the public system should be fixed...I thought that's the whole point of the discussion on health care.

You have some deluded idea about what public health care is.... It is not a system for the poor, as your verbal diatribe would suggest.  It is a system for everyone.  And in its inception, there were conditions laid down so that Conservatives and other meathead couldn't bastardize the system... read the following quote.

"it is to be administered and operated on a non-profit basis by a public authority appointed or designated by the government of the province;"

I resent you or anyone else referring to the politicians, doctors, nurses and sick that advocate a two-tier system as "meatheads". It is incredibly ignorant of you to believe other people are somehow intellectually lacking because they believe in the same things you do.

Public healthcare is not a system for a poor, nor did I even suggest. I said that most people would be referred to private clinics for tests and procedures by public hospitals and doctors. Private clinics that are paid for by people and corporations that choose to open them. The services would be paid for by our public insurance so everyone has equal access to the care that OHIP affords us.

To suggest that OHIP should not be used to pay for care in a private facility is to turn two-tier system into a private system for the rich and a public system for everyone else. This is something that not a single politician or canadian would even dream of advocating. To suggest otherwise is slanderous and a flat out lie.

And your point is ???

We have a public system, paid for by public money.  If you want to use a system that is not a public system, it shouldn't be paid for with public money.... Don't you get it ????

My point is if you don't allow our public insurance to pay for services in private clinics, you effectively ban those who can't afford the care from this facilities. It is YOU and those who agree with your stance that don't want the poor and middle-class to have access to private care. Meanwhile, you try to pass it off as some idealistic utopian society where everyone gets equal care under one public system. The reality is people are suffering everyday because the government and bureaucrats suck at business.

Keep a single public system, people will continue to suffer and we'll continue to waste more money on something that is damn near impossible to make work. Banning private industry and giving the government total control over something is a recipe for disaster, as has been proven around the world.

Allowing a parrallel private system would give people better access to medical services and if OHIP continues to cover the things it covers now (regardless of whether you're getting service in a public or private hospital) everyone will be able to get better care.

Rephrased, you are upset that you cannot give THE PUBLIC's money to an institution that's not publicly funded.  I have no problem with you going to the USA and blowing your OWN money on whatever you want.  What sensible Ontarians don't want is the public's tax dollars being diverted from the public system into a private system.  That will leave less money in the public system, and hence, cut the quality of the public service, which will futher exacerbate the situation...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The money is already being spent by OHIP outside the public system. It's being spent in another country for crying out loud. Not only is it being diverted out of the system, but it's leaving our country and costing tons more than care would in Canada.

Suggesting would should just take more money from Canadians and blow it on our crippled health care system is simply not an option I'm interested in supporting. I'm sick and tired of having one of the most costly public systems in the world, meanwhile our health stats are not anywhere near the best.

A two-tier public healthcare system would provide better access to care for everyone, better quality care for everyone and doctors/nurses will be paid what they're worth instead of some arbitrary wage the government dreams up.

[cybercoma]

Right wingers always show their true colours. When they lose the debates as they invariably do, they begin to start with their extremist comments like commie, communism, etc. Grow up!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Communism is a fair term when you believe all professionals that go to Canadian schools should work government jobs.

I'm done with you bigdude. I'm going to do my damndest not to respond to a thing you say. Comments like "right wingers invariably lose debates" and telling someone to grow up because they point out that you have a communist view of society can't be labelled as anything other than trolling.

I'd rather not be caught breaking the rules by giving you a reason to post.

[err]

and yes, the public system should be fixed...I thought that's the whole point of the discussion on health care.

Buying a second car is not how you fix the first one...

I resent you or anyone else referring to the politicians, doctors, nurses and sick that advocate a two-tier system as "meatheads".

I think I said "Conservatives and other meatheads"... It is rather underhanded of you to proport that I would suggest that doctors, nurses, and the sick were meatheads. It is also quite the supposition that doctors, nurses, and especially the sick support a two-tier system...

Private clinics that are paid for by people and corporations that choose to open them.  The services would be paid for by our public insurance so everyone has equal access to the care that OHIP affords us.

Hello, anybody home ??? Our public system is to pay for public services. If you want to pay for private services that are also publicly available for "free", you have the right to dip into your pocket to pay that non-approved vendor. But you are not allowed to dip into my pocket to pay for non-approved vendors....

To suggest that OHIP should not be used to pay for care in a private facility is to turn two-tier system into a private system for the rich and a public system for everyone else.  This is something that not a single politician or canadian would even dream of advocating.  To suggest otherwise is slanderous and a flat out lie.

You'll have to talk more slowly, because you aren't making any sense... We don't officially have a two-tier system, and we don't want a two-tiered system, and we don't want the public system to pay for a private system...

My point is if you don't allow our public insurance to pay for services in private clinics, you effectively ban those who can't afford the care from this facilities.  It is YOU and those who agree with your stance that don't want the poor and middle-class to have access to private care.

Our Universal health-care system is supposed to provide all that is required as far as medical care (North American standards). There should be no need for an idividual to use a "pay for" private system. If our system is missing some "standard practice" treatments, then we should fix our system. If someone want's accupucture, or some other non-standard medical practice, let them pay for it, outside our public system.

Meanwhile, you try to pass it off as some idealistic utopian society where everyone gets equal care under one public system.  The reality is people are suffering everyday because the government and bureaucrats suck at business.

What's important here is whether they are good at medical care. It's half-brained conservatives like you who think that we shouldn't pay civil servants a good wage, or pay for the latest and greatest medical equipment to keep our taxes down... and then say that we should pay all kinds of extra money to private industry that cost a whopping load more than our public system for the same functions. You'll have to go back and think about how inconsistant you are in your convictions.....

Keep a single public system, people will continue to suffer and we'll continue to waste more money on something that is damn near impossible to make work.  Banning private industry and giving the government total control over something is a recipe for disaster, as has been proven around the world.

Let's hear some specific examples, backed up with some kind of acceptable proof....

Allowing a parrallel private system would give people better access to medical services and if OHIP continues to cover the things it covers now (regardless of whether you're getting service in a public or private hospital) everyone will be able to get better care.

And when we pay more money out of our pockets for private services, there will be less money left in the pocket for our public services.... So public services will go downhill.... And we'll all pay more taxes for your public/private service.... And I thought you were against paying more taxes... Again, you have an inconsistent position...

The money is already being spent by OHIP outside the public system.  It's being spent in another country for crying out loud.  Not only is it being diverted out of the system, but it's leaving our country and costing tons more than care would in Canada.

When you have a hole in your bucket, do you fix it by drilling more holes in the bucket as you are advocating...... No, you patch the hole....

A two-tier public healthcare system would provide better access to care for everyone, better quality care for everyone and doctors & nurses will be paid what they're worth instead of some arbitrary wage the government dreams up.

And you, with your conservative ideals, want to pay these higher wages, and you vehemently begrudge paying $17/hour to a LCBO employee... Your position is all over the place, contradicting yourself at every corner...