12 Year-olds Join labour force in Alberta

[lenwick]

12-year-olds join Alberta labour forceBy KATHERINE HARDING

Saturday, June 25, 2005 Page A1

EDMONTON -- Bridgette Tsang still doesn't know what she wants to do when she grows up, but the 12-year-old Grade 6 pupil is already a poster child for a controversial labour change in Alberta.

**Post Removed Due to Copyright Infringment**

Edited June 28, 2005 by Greg

[kimmy]

Good for little Bridgette!

When I was 12, most of my friends got a big fat allowance for doing nothing, but I did chores and delivered junk-mail 3 days a week to earn money. Busing tables like Bridgette would have been an improvement. Better conditions, probably, and better pay for sure.

Old-people are constantly complaining that "kids these days" do nothing and have everything handed to them on a silver platter, and don't understand the value of money or having to work for it. Ok, so what's wrong with this, then? We're *not* talking about some Dickensian nightmare-world where kids are working in coal-mines and fireworks-factories, and we're not talking about some Malaysian sweat-shop where 8-year olds are locked in basements for 12 hour shifts making shoes for 50 cents a day. It's restaurant help... 2-hours a day... and they're not even allowed to go near anything dangerous.

Something else to consider: rural kids are hard-working members of the economy from a very early age, and always have been. Where's the equivalent opportunity for city kids? Maybe it's working at basic jobs in the service industry. It seems to me like a good way for kids to learn things about the world that might help them later in life.

-k

[JerrySeinfeld]

This is a good way to get kids into better-paying, more legit jobs than they are doing in most provinces.

I know when I was a 12 I used to deliver 500-600 flyers door to door twice a week. It took me at least 3-5 hours each time. I made about $50-60 every two weeks. That's like $3-4 / hour of hard driving labour in the snow.

At least now a kid can go out and work in a decent environment and earn real money.

Great news for kids!

[I Miss Trudeau]

It's restaurant help... 2-hours a day... and they're not even allowed to go near anything dangerous.

How do you reasonably expect to enforce these rules?

[Technocrat]

From a health and safety perspective this is crazy.

a) the kids will have little to no knowledge of their rights as a worker

i sure as hell don't want a 12 year old flippin my burgers... Ecoli anyone?

c) These kids should be out with their friends... not slaving away for minimum wage.

d) Hmmm maybe Nike will relocate some of its production to Alberta

[JerrySeinfeld]

From a health and safety perspective this is crazy. 

a) the kids will have little to no knowledge of their rights as a worker

i sure as hell don't want a 12 year old flippin my burgers... Ecoli anyone?

c) These kids should be out with their friends... not slaving away for minimum wage. 

d) Hmmm maybe Nike will relocate some of its production to Alberta

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Kids work now everywhere in this country as paperboys or mowing your lawn.

At least in this environment they will be suprevised.

Tell me what is more unsafe: a kid clearing your table at the local greasy spoon or a kid deleivering papers for a few hours in -15C weather?

[willy]

I delivered papers in Edmonton when I was 12 and it was cold.

Learning the responsibility and the money collection side of the business was very valuable.

Today I am a successful business person and part of the reason was the work habits I developed early on.

It should be up to parents to decide and if a willing employer is found so be it.

[Guest eureka]

All these hard working "Right Wingers" - cradle to grave industry. It shows in the quality of the posting that they sacrificed education for money.

There have been lots of studies that have shown kids who go out to work early do not perform as well in school. The value of money they may learn but not the value of education.

[I Miss Trudeau]

There have been lots of studies that have shown kids who go out to work early do not perform as well in school. The value of money they may learn but not the value of education.

Come now Eureka! These are right wingers you're talking about. They know that education has negative value... who do you think you're fooling?

[willy]

Come now Eureka! These are right wingers you're talking about. They know that education has negative value... who do you think you're fooling?

All these hard working "Right Wingers" - cradle to grave industry. It shows in the quality of the posting that they sacrificed education for money.

That is just sad. If you don't agree with me fine but because I spend most of my day working and spend little time researching and editing my posts is no reason to assume my education level. I know when my posts are poorly written, do you know when you are being an arse.

The sad part is the implicit status you give yourself and your own thoughts with little evidence that your thoughts are superior to anyone else on this forum.

I don't look down on you for your social engineering ideas that I honestly believe harm more than they help. I understand that we have a different life experience that leads us to different conclusions to the reality that we both experience. I guess my experience also includes working, and maybe yours doesn't. That is the perception that you are leaving.

Is the only valuable education young people receive, the ones they find in books or is the experience of responsibility and meeting the expectations of working another type of education that can also be valuable.

[Guest eureka]

Grow up, Willy! I began work full time when I was fifteen years old. I undertook to fill the gap in my formal education fiteen years later and did so. I know the value of education far better than most though, at fifteen, I had the equivaleny of Grade 13 in Canada.

The non satirical part of my post does reflect what social studies have confirmed. Actually, the very brightest of kids can handle both provided the worldly side is not too onerous. Most cannot.

Look at IMT's response. He had no confusion about the intent of my post.

[RB]

Alberta has the youngest population in Canada and is doing excellent promoting competition, trade. Well, that’s why Alberta is so relaxed in its labor laws.

Firstly, one can say well the kids need work experience to begin. No skill means much longer time to secure employment, start 'em young.

Also I noted that the youths that are juggling classes and work will stay in school for a longer period – I mean who takes on the cost burden then?

My issue with kids working too early is that they displace adult workers. Look, most youths (anyone under 30) who are not in school would like to have some permanent arrangement.

A 12 year old would be ok with some non-standard working arrangements plus it is incorporated into their school schedule. Nevertheless, those conditions foster and lowers employment expectation for those seeking a job to survive. I mean if there is surplus school children available for work the market becomes saturated and employers choose.

I looked at the stats and 75% of this non-standard arrangements belong to the youth groups and 100% of the youths who are not attending school do not like this arrangement.

Since I like to compare the women and men in employment issues, I can also tell you that 51% of these non-standard working arrangements is allocated to women, 37% is to men - somehow the men seem to secure some permanency

Most accidents also occur with youth group especially in the first year of work, I would probably vote to have a Union representing youths so that we can differentiate workers, seniority, and serious workers and hold on to opportunities for those youths who are looking for some job security in times of reorganization.

[I Miss Trudeau]

That is just sad. If you don't agree with me fine but because I spend most of my day working and spend little time researching and editing my posts is no reason to assume my education level. I know when my posts are poorly written, do you know when you are being an arse.

My post has nothing to do with the quality of your post nor anyone elses. What it does have to do with is the seething hostility toward, and outright rejection of, education and formal study that many, if not most, right wingers on this forum endorse.

[willy]

What it does have to do with is the seething hostility toward, and outright rejection of, education and formal study that many, if not most, right wingers on this forum endorse.

I am currently in Grad school while I work. I think education is of the highest value and feel very lucky that I can pursue my interests to the highest level.

So which right wingers are you talking about? I have not read the posts you refer to.

The self appointed left wing intellectual superiority burns my butt. If my post was over the top so be it. But don't insult a large portion of the population’s intelligence because you think they are wrong.

Peace out.

[Left for life]

I don't support this. Kids at that age should be playing not worrying about being treated like crap by their boss, and don't tell me that the service industry doesn't treat workers like crap. They have the rest of their life to worry about work.

[kimmy]

Grow up, Willy! I began work full time when I was fifteen years old. I undertook to fill the gap in my formal education fiteen years later and did so. I know the value of education far better than most though, at fifteen, I had the equivaleny of Grade 13 in Canada.

Yeah, but in those days a highschool education meant you were able to read, write, skin a moose, and start a fire with flint and steel.

Seriously, though...

The non satirical part of my post does reflect what social studies have confirmed. Actually, the very brightest of kids can handle both provided the worldly side is not too onerous. Most cannot.

I don't believe the problem is in aptitude.

I strongly doubt that many or any of the kids in these studies spend 2 hours a night doing homework. The reason achiever type kids can handle work and school at the same time is not that they're inherently smarter or anything, it's just that they have better habits. Kids who struggle working part-time while in highschool are also kids who would struggle anyway. If these kids weren't cleaning tables at McDonald's, they'd be downtown or at the mall or playing X-Box or surfing for porn or watching TV ... or doing pretty much anything except homework. The idea that work takes time away from their studies is flawed because they aren't using time for studying anyway. I know kids. In fact I myself was a kid until just recently! Kids who struggle aren't struggling because the material is too tough. They struggle because they lack structure and work habits and focus. Maybe working part-time can help them with that.

-k

[willy]

Left for life, this is my larger point. It is not yours or my decision. This is a decision that should be left to parents. If the parents are deficient maybe the kid is better off working. We don’t need to regulate all the decisions people make. We all should not eat junk food but I hope you are not looking at the government to regulate the type of foods restaurants can provide. Liberty?

[Black Dog]

There's a very simple idealogical reason for this move. If you expand the size of the labour market, you don't have to increase wages. Low wages means lower costs means higher profits.

[CrazyCanuck]

My post has nothing to do with the quality of your post nor anyone elses. What it does have to do with is the seething hostility toward, and outright rejection of, education and formal study that many, if not most, right wingers on this forum endorse.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure the "Right-wing" province of Alberta has the strongest education system in Canada. They consistently outperform the rest of the country and most of the world in Science and Math testing. If they reject education in Alberta, and they are still this good, wouldn't it be really scary how smart they'd be if there actually was a focus on learning?

[I Miss Trudeau]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure the "Right-wing" province of Alberta has the strongest education system in Canada.

Did you read my post before trying to reply to it? Evidently not.

[JerrySeinfeld]

I don't support this. Kids at that age should be playing not worrying about being treated like crap by their boss, and don't tell me that the service industry doesn't treat workers like crap.  They have the rest of their life to worry about work.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Then the parents shouldn't let em work.

What's with the government telling everyone what to do?

[I Miss Trudeau]

What's with the government telling everyone what to do?

Would you offer the same argument if it were 4 year olds working at sickdonalds?

[kimmy]

What's with the government telling everyone what to do?

Would you offer the same argument if it were 4 year olds working at sickdonalds?

Why would he? Four year olds and 12 year olds are kind of different, don't you think? Like, for instance, some 12 year olds work as baby-sitters. If a kid is responsible enough to be entrusted to look after kids, mopping up tables at McD's ought to be a piece of cake, right?

-k

[I Miss Trudeau]

Why would he?  Four year olds and 12 year olds are kind of different, don't you think? 

The question is whether or not they are sufficiently different. With regards to deference to authority, I would answer in the negative.

But you never did answer the question I posted to you earlier:

How do you reasonably expect the province to enforce the rules they have set for child labour?

[kimmy]

Why would he?  Four year olds and 12 year olds are kind of different, don't you think? 

The question is whether or not they are sufficiently different. With regards to deference to authority, I would answer in the negative.

I disagree. There are many 12 year olds with responsible and cooperative attitudes and healthy work ethics, just as there are many 16, 18, or 30 year olds with pathetic attitudes toward authority, responsibility, and effort. These are individual traits which, I suggest, are well on their way toward development in 12 year olds; it would be ridiculous to suggest the same is true of 4 year olds.

Are all 12 year olds responsible and mature enough to work at a job? Of course not... but that's something that managers will have to decide for themselves when they're interviewing prospective employees... just as they do when they hire 16 year olds or adults.

But you never did answer the question I posted to you earlier:

How do you reasonably expect the province to enforce the rules they have set for child labour?

Oh, sorry. I missed that.

I think the threat of dire legal consequences will be sufficient. If the law says 12 year olds shall not work the deep fat fryer or the grill, and some kid gets burned at work, there is going to be big trouble. There's going to be an investigation, there's going to be loads of bad publicity, there's going to be fines from the government, and most dangerously, there's going to be a lawsuit from the kid's parents. An owner would have to be an idiot to expose his business to that sort of hazard.

Why would an employer follow these rules? Because they could quite easily lose everything if they break the rules.

-k