Fixed-Wing SAR - Can we get it right this time?

[cappy67]

I've been reading a lot lately about the next big defence procurement coming down the pipe - Fixed-Wing Search and Rescue... and am seeing the same thing happening here as with helicopters and subs.

Will the feds be able to fend off the "biggest, fastest, strongest" mentality of the defence department and think logically, sensibly and creatively about what the best option is for Canadians.

I've found sites representing the two major contenders: EADS CASA (www.c-295.ca) and Alenia (www.c27j.ca).

Clearly, both aircraft have their advantages. But I think the CASA site has a well thought out approach that needs to be considered.

What do you think?

[kimmy]

Thanks for posting.

One thing I noticed from the specifications is that the C-27J appears to be much better at short take-offs and short landings, which I would think could be an important consideration.

Overall, I just hope that the decision is made on the basis of needs and merits, not political factors.

-kimmy

[Argus]

I've been reading a lot lately about the next big defence procurement coming down the pipe - Fixed-Wing Search and Rescue... and am seeing the same thing happening here as with helicopters and subs.

Will the feds be able to fend off the "biggest, fastest, strongest" mentality of the defence department and think logically, sensibly and creatively about what the best option is for Canadians.

I've found sites representing the two major contenders: EADS CASA (www.c-295.ca) and Alenia (www.c27j.ca).

Clearly, both aircraft have their advantages. But I think the CASA site has a well thought out approach that needs to be considered.

What do you think?

Defence department purchases have nothing to do with "bigger, fastest, strongest". They depend entirely on how much money can be funneled into Liberal ridings and doled out to Liberal friendly companies as sub contracts.

It's been that way for decades.

[cappy67]

Thanks for posting.

One thing I noticed from the specifications is that the C-27J appears to be much better at short take-offs and short landings, which I would think could be an important consideration.

Overall, I just hope that the decision is made on the basis of needs and merits, not political factors.

-kimmy

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

short take-off and landing is less important as it relates to Search and Rescue given that the role of the fixed-wing aircraft in a SAR capacity is to locate and then drop people and supplies to the rescue site until helicopters or ground support can be mobilized... certainly manoeverability is a big thing, landing not so much, and the CASA folks seem to be demonstrating that... I notice from their site that they've started a tour of Northern Canada... (if nothing else some good pics)... but their reports say that they're showcasing some valley flying and low flying techniques to the local SAR groups...

www.c-295.ca

[Army Guy]

Cappy:

Will the feds be able to fend off the "biggest, fastest, strongest" mentality of the defence department and think logically, sensibly and creatively about what the best option is for Canadians.

I have the impression that you have very little idea of how our goverment purchases anything including DND. Perhaps you should go to the PWSG goverment web site...All DND gives them is a fact sheet with specifacations...it does not list makes or models...it is PWSG that picks serveral examples of equipment that best meets those specs...DND tests them makes a recommendation and our goverment masters make the final decission on what equipment is purchased...And like Argus said it normally has a very polictical flavour to it...

short take-off and landing is less important as it relates to Search and Rescue given that the role of the fixed-wing aircraft in a SAR capacity is to locate and then drop people and supplies to the rescue site until helicopters or ground support can be mobilized... certainly manoeverability is a big thing, landing not so much,

Unless you are up north then having STOL capabilities is very important...these new aircraft are to replace the Twin Otter. And take on some of the roles that our SAR Hercs now have....

[cappy67]

Cappy:

I have the impression that you have very little idea of how our goverment purchases anything including DND. Perhaps you should go to the PWSG goverment web site...All DND gives them is a fact sheet with specifacations...it does not list makes or models...it is PWSG that picks serveral examples of equipment that best meets those specs...DND tests them makes a recommendation and our goverment masters make the final decission on what equipment is purchased...And like Argus said it normally has a very polictical flavour to it...   

Unless you are up north then having STOL capabilities is very important...these new aircraft are to replace the Twin Otter. And take on some of the roles that our SAR Hercs now have....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Re. STOL - fair enough... as a northerner, I was being a tad selfish. With respect to the specifications and procurement, I'm afraid I know only too well about how government purchases work. The problem, like many procurements, is that the specs are set to favour a specific bidder from the outset. In this case, DND sets a speed requirement based on current basing formulas. However, and it's a larger issue granted, the notion of speed becomes, quite frankly, irrelevant, if the government had the guts to consider actually basing planes in the north itself.

[Army Guy]

Cappy:

I'm afraid I know only too well about how government purchases work. The problem, like many procurements, is that the specs are set to favour a specific bidder from the outset.

Can you provide a specific example? Granted there is equipment that is only manufacture by a limited amount of manufactures...But for the most part the Specs that DND provides are for a specific type of equipment IE APC(armoured personal carrier) or fighter A/C the specs will tell PWSG what it is that DND wants this equipment to do and they (PWSG)chooses a few examples ...

It is very common for our polictical masters to veto DND's final pick and sub it with there own pick ..Good example of this is the LSVW( logistics vehicle wheeled) a 1 and a 1/2 ton truck...DND's pick was rejected...the liberals picked one made by western star in BC it failed all DND's tests...the goverment ordered DND to make it pass, the veh tests had to be taken to the desert in the US...This veh is considered the worst military veh in our fleet. There are many more examples of this....

Our purcurment system is garbage,and needs to be revamped badly...Goverment depts should be able to choose thier own equipment ....the only decission the goverment should have to make is "how much money they are willing to spend"

  In this case, DND sets a speed requirement based on current basing formulas. However, and it's a larger issue granted, the notion of speed becomes, quite frankly, irrelevant, if the government had the guts to consider actually basing planes in the north itself.

Yellowknife is up north and there is a Detachment of twin otters up there....there were some plans to place a base some where up north for fighters and Transport A/C but DND 's funding is extremly limited....I believe there are going to upgrade yellowknife instead...

[cappy67]

Can you provide a specific example? Granted there is equipment that is only manufacture by a limited amount of manufactures...But for the most part the Specs that DND provides are for a specific type of equipment IE APC(armoured personal carrier) or fighter A/C the specs will tell PWSG what it is that DND wants this equipment to do and they (PWSG)chooses a few examples ...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So figure this - from a recent Ottawa Citizen Article (bias or no??)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Marcello Cianciaruso, Alenia North America's search and rescue project director, said the company toured all four air force search and rescue bases in October 2003 with its C-27J Spartan.

"We've done two demo tours. We stopped on the bases of search and rescue. We went to Trenton, Winnipeg, Comox, Greenwood," said Mr. Cianciaruso.

Defence Department spokesman Jay Milano confirmed the air force did not have anything to do with last week's C-295 tour. "We're not doing anything with the company," Mr. Milano said. "We're still developing the requirements. ... This company, they can do whatever they want, and they are."

But Mr. Milano denied the military allowed any of the C-295's competitors access to its airbases. "It would be inappropriate for any of these companies, and us, to engage in any type of activity such as that," said Mr. Milano.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

note the conspicuous absence of any DND folks at any stops of the CASA tour - www.c-295.ca - click on the tour button to access the itinerary which also contains reports from each stop.

[puppymate]

Thanks for posting.

One thing I noticed from the specifications is that the C-27J appears to be much better at short take-offs and short landings, which I would think could be an important consideration.

Overall, I just hope that the decision is made on the basis of needs and merits, not political factors.

-kimmy

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

short take-off and landing is less important as it relates to Search and Rescue given that the role of the fixed-wing aircraft in a SAR capacity is to locate and then drop people and supplies to the rescue site until helicopters or ground support can be mobilized... certainly manoeverability is a big thing, landing not so much, and the CASA folks seem to be demonstrating that... I notice from their site that they've started a tour of Northern Canada... (if nothing else some good pics)... but their reports say that they're showcasing some valley flying and low flying techniques to the local SAR groups...

www.c-295.ca

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

As one that worked in South America with the C27A the Short Takeoff was not one factor that was utilized and in fact the C130 with a limited fuel load could have also performed the missions scheduled for the C-27A

[Spike22]

Don't hold your breath getting new FWSAR aircraft just yet folks, the C-130 replacement project has been blessed to procede however the heavy lift helicopetr and the FWSAR program are stagnant and wilting on the vine.

Things may become clearer in the muddy waters once the election is over and the winning party changes their mind (or is that looses their mind) about whcih direction they want to lead the military (god help them).

[geoffrey]

If it can't be built at Bombardier, then it won't be built at all.

[Spike22]

The ramp mandatory requirement is now gone due to political pressuring (lobbying by Bombardier) to gov't/DND, ADM/MAT, PWGSC.

The proposed Bombardier product does not have one and as such all involved in the project have been directed to re-focus their attention to a non-ramp FWSAR platform.

Let the BS begin. Who would think political and industrial meddling would end after the MHP debacle and the Liberals not me...

[na85]

Sigh. Why can't they just pony up the dough for a few Globemasters. Instead, they'll probably pull a Martin and buy some retrofitted B-17 Flying Fortresses from the British and then one will catch fire.

[geoffrey]

Wow this was brought back from the dead.

[Spike22]

Globemasters for search and rescue? Sorry not a viable option given the regions we have to cover.

Good for airlft though.

[na85]

Globemasters for search and rescue? Sorry not a viable option given the regions we have to cover.

Good for airlft though.

Oh sorry, I was thinking more in terms of the C-130 replacement, I guess.