Dalton McGuinty

[Grantler]

I was just wondering whether people forgive Dalton for boosting health care premiums on certain practices such as chiropractic care.

He was left with a miserable mess after the Prgressive Conservatives left power (and lied about the state of the Ontario books).

How far can a Premier and governing party change from their election platform and still hope for decent support at the polls?

I know as many as five years occur in between elections but some Ontarians were mighty pissed at this instance.

[caesar]

I was just wondering whether people forgive Dalton for boosting health care premiums on certain practices such as chiropractic care.

I would hope so. Here in BC we had our premiums raised again; we lost all coverage for chiropractors, physio, regular eye exams. And the waiting list for surgeries, MIRs and assorted testing grows longer and longer. Many of us have to dig deep and go to private clinics which are operating here Seniors here are paying much more for prescriptions if they have a half decent pension. over a thousand dollars MORE for my husband

Ontario is lucky

[Grantler]

And this is all under a BC Liberal government?

We have discussed in class that the BC government is more conservative than liberal in theory and this is a very distinct example of why that is believed.

As for BC, has there not been a party that has tried to right this health care system?

It seems to me that, even for prescription drugs, all provinces in Canada have an obligation to provide as close to universal health care as possible?

What is the state of the provinces economy? Are these premiums necessary do you think?

[caesar]

We have always had premiums in BC; this latest was an increase. Campbell is spending our tax money on the Olympics; an expensive upgrade road to a ski hill (Whistler) and now this upcoming RAV line to the airport.

Seniors contributions to prescription costs first increased by the Liberals at the start of their term; then a few months later; were dramatically increased with the senior paying the complete cost of the prescriptions up to a deductible. We are far from wealthy seniors but have a reasonable pension and a small RRIF. We must pay the first 1000 than 25% of the next 700. Many services to all were delisted; chiropractors, physio therapy, regular eye exams to mention a few.

Physio can cost 50 per visit; sometimes prescribed 2 x a week; that could cost over 400 per month while you wait 6 to 9 months to see a specialist; then it could be another 6 to 9 months to have an operation unless it is an emergency. My son and son in law were injured on the same weekend (separate accidents) My son in law crushed both feet; while he got immediate treatment; he had to give up the physio which was helping as he couldn't pay as he couldn't work for 6 months. My son ended up paying for his own MIR as he waited 6 months to see the specialist; then was told it would be 9 months until he could get an MIR unless he wanted to pay for it out of his pocket; then he was scheduled for the next week. Physio at 4oo per month when you don't even know the problem is more expensive; but the government pays zilch.

We have a fairly healthy economy now due to higher fuel prices and China's appetite for our coal; of course the government takes the credit.

[Grantler]

Ok, wow, I am stunned.

That personal story you give should make anyone in Canada sick to their stomach.

I cannot believe that. This is a country that prides itself on health care and to have systems that benefit the use of money is rediculous.

I will provide this stat for you.

The United States spends 2.6% of its GDP. Canada, 0.6%. It was a shock to me.

------

But, on the other side of the coin, Canada's system is not what it use to be. Althought I cannot remember the exact numbers, something around 15 people use to work for every 1 dependant on the system. Nowadays, the is probably down to between 3-5 people working for everyone 1 dependant (don't take my numbers as excatly true; they are just meant to state a point).

I am sure that part of the problem lies in this statisical reality.

What do you think?

[daniel]

And this is all under a BC Liberal government?

We have discussed in class that the BC government is more conservative than liberal in theory and this is a very distinct example of why that is believed.

I have no idea how far your class discussion has gone so I'm guessing that it hasn't mentioned the BC Liberals are made up of refugees from the now-defunct and dishonoured Social Credit party - an ultrarightwing party comparable to the Reform Party.

Back on topic, polls aren't showing favourable for Dalton because the perception is that he lied. He broke too many campaign promises. But I can't see how anybody can seriously blame him for the current predicament. One may state that he should have known the true state of the books before making those promises but again how many people outside of the inner Harris circle knew the details of the secret 407 contract and the secret details of the Oak Ridges Moraine? Those secret contracts had iron-clad conditions that literally 1) robbed Ontarians of lucrative 407 revenue (407 was an NDP initiative) and 2) severly and permanently weakened environmental protection of natural wetlands around the GTA.

Secondly, it wouldn't have mattered in the Ontario Liberal had made any campaign promises at all. At that time, Ontarians were so fed up with the results of the Common Sense Revolution, they would have voted Liberal regardless.

[fellowtraveller]

The problems in BC arent' problems with the trivia of the social systems that posters whine about endlessly.

The problems lie with revenue, the ability to pay for all that lovely stuff. You can't borrow money indefinitely, unless you accept passing such a horrific legacy of debt to your children. You can't pay for all of that stuff in an environment of failure and reliance on government.

Look to the revenue side for salvation, and fiscal responsibility on the expenditure side.

Try creating a spirit of energy and self sufficiency in the citizenry instead of a pervasive atmosphere of whiny me-first entitlement. Try creating an environment where business wants to invest and create jobs , instead of leaving.

Try it, you just may find that at least some of those lovely social programs are affordable

[Argus]

I was just wondering whether people forgive Dalton for boosting health care premiums on certain practices such as chiropractic care.

No. I don't think he is ever going to live it down and I don't think he is going to be able to win re-election in large part because too many Ontarions consider him to be a liar.

He was left with a miserable mess after the Prgressive Conservatives left power (and lied about the state of the Ontario books).

That's nonsense. McGuinty knew the state of the books, and the one-time deficit wasn't as bad as he's pretended it was. Nor have there been any improvements, either in health care or in the budget deficit.

[fellowtraveller]

was just wondering whether people forgive Dalton for boosting health care premiums on certain practices such as chiropractic care

Wouldn't they first have to forget that he introduced health care premiums?

[caesar]

The problems lie with revenue, the ability to pay for all that lovely stuff. You can't borrow money indefinitely, unless you accept passing such a horrific legacy of debt to your children. You can't pay for all of that stuff in an environment of failure and reliance on government.

Revenue; my eye. There is plenty of money to allow fish farmers to get out of paying fines and even having their rent lowered. Plenty of money to forgive Nancy Campbell's cheque kiting cousin who was paid millions for a failed computer program. Plenty of money for expensive improvements to a ski hill (Whistler). Plenty of money for the 2x voted down expensive RAV line. Plenty of money to provide Premier Campabell with round the clock RCMP "protection" after he lost his driver's license for drinking and driving. Four RCMP around the clock because he suddenly needs protection" after his Hawaii embarrassment.

Campbell sold off the province's assets for a song.

The rich are richer; everyone else is much poorer or lacking services; especially seniors, women, and children.

[fellowtraveller]

Revenue; my eye. There is plenty of money to allow fish farmers to get out of paying fines and even having their rent lowered. Plenty of money to forgive Nancy Campbell's cheque kiting cousin who was paid millions for a failed computer program. Plenty of money for expensive improvements to a ski hill (Whistler). Plenty of money for the 2x voted down expensive RAV line. Plenty of money to provide Premier Campabell with round the clock RCMP "protection" after he lost his driver's license for drinking and driving. Four RCMP around the clock because he suddenly needs protection" after his Hawaii embarrassment.

Gossip and trivia.

Talk about revenue and expenditures, or go back to the sandbox.

Notice how BCs economy is starting to turn around for the first time in a decade +? Just a coincidence in the ideological blindness of the socialists.

As a Canadian, I'm so glad that a wealthy province like BC finally has an opportunity to get off the federal tit and move forward.

Next up: Manitoba.

[caesar]

We have been a rich province for a long time; Our short term dip into the have not; had more to do with punishing duties from the USA regarding our forestry industry. One of BC's largest industries.

We have more people dying after be turned away at emergency. Cuts to children"s ministries. That was a 16 year old ward of the courts out stealing cars and gas that caused the death of a 24 year old gas station attendant.

What good is an improving economy which does not allow enough of the money being earned to support and feed the workers adequately. We don't need a few fat cats that take all the cream while the workers starve.

BC has already recorded 15,000 lost jobs in 2004," said Sinclair, "and youth unemployment remains a serious issue as students enter the summer workforce." British Columbia recorded another increase in unemployment, as Statistics Canada noted unemployment rose to 7.8 percent for the month of May 2004.

[fellowtraveller]

Our short term dip into the have not; had more to do with punishing duties from the USA regarding our forestry industry.

Absolute rubbish. Your financial collapse was due to lack of investment by everybody. You'd have to be nuts to invest in a socialist environment filled with high cost, low productivity operations.

BTW, Alberta and guess who, yes BC are expected to lead the country in economic growth next year.

Another coincidence, nothing to do with dumping the yoke of socialism from the shoulders of the working man....

[err]

People should never forgive Dalton McGuilty for his big lie.

The Liberals knew about the size of the Ontario deficit months BEFORE the Ontario election.

On 4 June, 2003, the Liberal finance critic (Gerry Phillips) accused the Conservative Finance Minister of hiding the fact that the deficit was over $5 Billion.... Then pretended that they thought the deficit was $2 Billion and based their election promises on that. Every Liberal election promise was a lie.

The previous (Tory) government decreased provincial taxes by $14 Billion, where mostly the wealthier of the province benefited. Then McGuilty added the health care premium, where the poorer and middle income earners pay the majority of this new health tax....

Again... we got the big deficit because the Tory governement gave too much money back to the richest Ontarians, and McGuilty fixes the gap by getting the missing money from the poor and middle income earners...

What do you think, should we forgive him....

[caesar]

Another coincidence, nothing to do with dumping the yoke of socialism from the shoulders of the working man....

Obviously, you do not live in BC.

the average "working man" is NOT better off under these right winged conservatives in Liberal clothing.

Our medical care is in terrible condition despite paying even higher premiums; seniors paying much higher portion of their prescription cost. Everything costs more and services are less. They even drove up the deficit despite the massive sell off of our BC assets.

Where is that long needed bridge to Kelowna that was promised to be built "right away" when we got the extra gas tax????? BC Rail sold off despite promises to the contrary.

[daniel]

People should never forgive Dalton McGuilty for his big lie.

...

The previous (Tory) government decreased provincial taxes by $14 Billion, where mostly the wealthier of the province benefited....

Again... we got the big deficit because the Tory governement gave too much money back to the richest Ontarians, and McGuilty fixes the gap by getting the missing money from the poor and middle income earners...

What do you think, should we forgive him....

I'm glad you hadn't forgotten the Tory decimation of our province either.