Canada Practicing Systemic Racism

[Argus]

God knows we are well aware that Natives are just as likely to be racist as any other group

the natives can habor much resentment against the whites but they do not have ECONOMIC POWER to descrimiate against the whites, furthermore non of the minority groups is able to descrimiate against the whites, so if you are the same, consider that you are born into some advantageous position for just being the same.

Are you saying this is an economic complaint? That this has nothing to do with morality? It doesn't matter if natives are racist because they have no money? What about dirt-poor whites who join the KKK? Do they not matter either?

I don't care about 1947. I wasn't born then.

i don't know how you can ignore the history but ok important information requirement: year of birth please?

My point is you are making arguments about Canada today, not Canada of 1947.

Here is a 1990 report of confrontation between Quebec police, the canadian army and kanienkehaka of kanesatake over the pines cemetery with gunfire and death of officer lemay.

That confrontation had nothing to do with racism.

Ok I won’t talk more about dudley george shooting and standoff of Camp Ipperwash 1995

Also had nothing to do with racism. You are focusing on land claims disputes. Those are not examples of canada being a "racist nation" but of land claims problems.

Walkerton now, and the water systems – a public scandal, a public inquiry, free distribution of water and a overhaul of the water delivery system

Yellowquill now, and the water systems – the first nations have been boiling water for 5 years now.  its reservoir is filled with run-off from nearby farms. End this report.

Haven't heard of it but I highly doubt it has anything to do with racism either. A brief google shows the yellowquil have just 500 people on the reserve. I know of no village of 500 that can have its own water treatment facility. Also, the band just bought a 9 story building in downtown saskatoon to serve as an urban reserve. Apparently their priorities are not the same as yours.

Who is an Indian – here is a good one.  The government decides even now, 2001 census less than a million people are indians, but wait there is also non-indians, if you lived in a

Spare me. As long as there are entitlement programs there will be government bodies deciding who qualifies. This is not racism either.

You have claimed Canada is a racist nation and you have not found a single story to back it up. Hell, even I could have done better in showing evidence of racism.

[RB]

mostly gone are the days of blatant racism as slavery, red-necked racism, or separation of Blacks, Jews, Chinese etc in canada

So you won’t find blatant racism in my writings sadly because racism is deeply embedded in our institutional systems

Here is an example of how you read into what I write

Citation: R. v. Auger, 2000 ABQB 450

Quote

[60] It is clear from the reasons in Gladue that the Supreme Court of Canada is of the view that a statistical comparison of the raw data relating to the percentage of aboriginals in jail populations as compared to the percentage of aboriginals in the ordinary population somehow proves a broad, systemic societal problem and widespread racism which has translated into systemic discrimination against aboriginals by the criminal justice system and that this in turn ultimately resulted in excessive imprisonment of aboriginals. Accordingly, it views s. 718.2(e) as an attempt, in part, to redress this problem: Unquote

The water problem is read the same way. And all the other examples that I have given, yes - plus their land, their culture

There are many folks who would like to say to minorities and aboriginal that the past is history, get over it, and get on. But you also fail to recognise that the white practices of preference never get addressed and do not get changed. The targeted groups are reminded of a history everyday, only now you are not blatant, and verbal, or have the personal fits of telling people where to sit. The difficulty with today’s racism is that it had manifested itself into our everyday practices, and the value system and hence a problem to identify let alone control

I mean racism have become rather sophisticated

-and progress to a level where racism is an ideology,

-and expressed at this intersection: majority/minority,

-and perpetuated by vested interests

-and well it has the roots in history.

Ok I will tell you how to watch out for the “new faces of racism”,

-well it could be unconscious or preconceived notions about others,

-believes about others while withholding equal treatment of the inferior groups,

-we already know the color component er no not color blind,

-creation of adverse effect on study, work and well being,

I will give an example what I mean with the study work well being and you can figure how the others operate. firstly aboriginal people are not represented in school for certain programs, therefore and entire sector of job market is a forgo for them, hence guess about their well being.

So here you are denying and using non-evaluative meanings and dismissal, dismissal, dismissal. I don’t mean to be critical this time around but your response shows yet how racism as discrimination is inevitable and acceptable and perhaps necessary.

[scribblet]

Wrong.....you are living in denial. We have a treaty process to respect, so that eventually First Peoples can finally share in Canada's economic wealth, and we are dealing with First Peoples on a nation to nation basis. Honkys had better get used to it.

Hello:

They do share in the economic wealth, they get around $10 billion of our tax dollars a year, with little or no accountability. Where does it all go, I believe if that money were given individually it would amount to about $50K per person.

ALL people should be equal, race based preferential treatment is a legal form of discrimination, reservations are a form of apartheid. I have a fundamental disagreement to building a society in which rights, responsibilities and opportunity are defined by a person's racial ancestry.

[Argus]

mostly gone are the days of  blatant racism as slavery, red-necked racism, or separation of Blacks, Jews, Chinese etc in canada

In Canada, not in the rest of the world. Outright slavery, as well as the most virulent hateful racism exists throughout the world.

So you won’t find blatant racism in my writings sadly because racism is deeply embedded in our institutional systems

The only thing deeply embedded in our institutional systems is red tape. And lots of it.

Citation: R. v. Auger, 2000 ABQB 450

Quote

[60] It is clear from the reasons in Gladue that the Supreme Court of Canada is of the view that a statistical comparison of the raw data relating to the percentage of aboriginals in jail populations as compared to the percentage of aboriginals in the ordinary population somehow proves a broad, systemic societal problem and widespread racism which has translated into systemic discrimination against aboriginals by the criminal justice system and that this in turn ultimately resulted in excessive imprisonment of aboriginals. Accordingly, it views s. 718.2(e) as an attempt, in part, to redress this problem: Unquote

It would be more well-mannered to tell us who you're quoting. But in any event, I disagree with the writer, and, presuming the writer's interpretation of the SC is correct, with them as well. It's all patent nonsense, in fact. More aboriginals are in jail because of the deplorable state of reserves, and the fact many aborigines who come to the cities haven't the skills or the cultural understanding to cope with life there and resort to drugs and alcohol - and then crime. So the greater incidence of aborigines being imprisoned is due to nothing more than a greater incidence of them commiting crime. This is not due to racism. This has nothing to do with racism. This is an economic problem brought about by the reserve system.

The water problem is read the same way.  And all the other examples that I have given, yes - plus their land, their culture

It's odd that after making very broad accusations about racism in Canada you have focussed entirely on problems with aborigines which are due to treaty and reserve problems. Where is this racism you're talking about?!

I will give an example what I mean with the study work well being and you can figure how the others operate.  firstly aboriginal people are not represented in school for certain programs, therefore and entire sector of job market is a forgo for them, hence guess about their well being. 

And are they not represented because they are being kept out or because they have no interest? I strongly suspect the latter. As an example, there are few Asians in police. For whatever cultural reasons Asians don't want to be police. The police do their best to recruit but their numbers are always slight. Now just looking at the raw data people can claim that underrepresentation is due to racism. It's not.

So here you are denying and using non-evaluative meanings and dismissal, dismissal, dismissal.  I don’t mean to be critical this time around but your response shows yet how racism as discrimination is inevitable and acceptable and perhaps necessary.

Until you can produce some strong evidence of institutional racism in this country I will reject it as unproven. Simply put, in my experience most claims of racism are nonsense.

[RB]

It would be more well-mannered to tell us who you're quoting.

sorry about that and you are right it is difficult case to find, so here is the court case of 2 aboriginals - the outcome was fair in my opinion and there is a bit more on systemic racism

http://www.canlii.org/ab/cas/abqb/2000/200...000abqb450.html

regarding the police, they of course had height, weight requirements. this is very mainstream and suitable for north american whites and until recently did not change the policies, so they did not keep with change policies as the demographics changed, whether intentionally who knows.

i mean asians, middle-easterns are biologically shorter folks so an entire population of chinese for example cannot become a police - this is systemic racism. only now the police are trying to reflect the diverse population and it is a numbers game because they refused entry to begin base on systems in place.

when the external/internal environment is surveyed the under-representation tells the story, and the over-representations the other side of the story. there are more subtleties about hiring 2 chinese all of a sudden, they seem to multiply in an instance and milding about all over the place

the only thing i see we might agree on is the logic of economics, and red-tape... lots... its different though

i apologise that i didn't address the entire post, i would like to and will soon

goodnight

[caesar]

Becoming "Canadian" under one law does not kill ones culture. We have many people from other countries that keep a lot of their cultures and make Canada a more diverse and interesting place to live.

The Quebec French speaking people could keep their language and other customs without getting special treatment in all areas; so can Canada's natives. Why do we hand out cash to them all. We try to keep the best of all cultures. They need more money being spent on trating alcoholism and drug treatment and counselling. Give them back their pride and make them contributing members of our country. There are many reserves that have cleaned up their act and are successful thriving communitites. Spend more money on their schools; good school lunches for the kids that come from families with alcohol and drug problems or simply poor so that they don't continue down the same road as their parents. More successful natives need to spend some time mentoring these young people and show them that an effort spent on their schooling will lead to success and that they need not follow in their alcoholic parents steps.

The invaders of our country brought this problem to them; we need to eradicate that problem by helping the adults as much as possible but to really concentrate and have the services there for the children so they can rise above the poverty and drinking and drug problems that are present on many reserves.

[Argus]

It would be more well-mannered to tell us who you're quoting.

sorry about that and you are right it is difficult case to find, so here is the court case of 2 aboriginals - the outcome was fair in my opinion and there is a bit more on systemic racism

While I also agree the outcome was fair in this instance I disagree with the conclusions of the judge regarding systemic racism. I concede it certainly existed in the past, but I reject the idea that statistical abnormalities alone can be used as an indication of systemic racism. The plight of native communities is due to historical factors which cause economic instability - which then causes social upheaval and crime. In other words, natives are not in prison in larger numbers than they should be due to our racist society but due to their poverty and unstable communities. And that poverty and instability is not due to present day racism but to a confusion about how to change their present situation.

regarding the police, they of course had  height, weight requirements.  this is very mainstream and suitable for north american whites and until recently did not change the policies,so they did not keep with change policies as the demographics changed, whether intentionally who knows. 

i mean asians, middle-easterns are biologically shorter folks so an entire population of chinese for example cannot become a police - this is systemic racism. only now the police are trying to reflect the diverse population and it is a numbers game because they refused entry to begin base on systems in place.

Above all else I like to consider myself practical. Recently I saw a picture in the paper of the outcome of these efforts you speak of. It was a picture of two police officers. One was an enormous white man. Next to him was his partner, a tiny black woman whose head came up to about the middle of his chest.

Frankly, I am opposed to the efforts you speak of. While it is discriminatory to want police officers - or firemen - to be large and powerful, their size is useful in their occupations. A large, physically powerful police officer can accomplish more than a small, weak police officer given that their job often require strong physical effort - as in fighting or restraining criminals, breaking up fights, etc. I don't regard this as racist, but practical.

Two examples from real life. One was a firefighter. During a fire, a large, heavy sign fell on several firefighters. Another firefighter rushed over and lifted it up. He was an unusually powerful man of well over six feet. He held the sign up while other firefighters dragged the injured out. A small, weak firefighter would not have been able to do that.

The second was a struggle in a bar as two female police attempted to arrest a man (not even a particularl large one). The man resisted merely by holding his arms together in front of him and refusing to allow the two females to draw his arms back to handcuff him. Because of their weakness they were forced to call for help and half a dozen police cars responded. Before their backup arrived, however, the arrest was made when a male customer came over and aided the police. Again we see where physical weakness led to less capable efforts which could have been dangerous had the suspect been more violent.

Two male officers would not have required backup.

Another example; A person I know doing ride-alongs with police travelled with a large police officer. In this city police ride alone, and their "backups" are already pretty much pre- assigned due to geography. During the ride-along they met this officer's backup, a female constable who wasn't much over 5 feet tall and weighed little more than 100 pounds. Afterwards the constable commented sarcastically that it sure made him feel safe knowing that this was his backup if he got into trouble.

Sorry, but a large, physically powerful body should be, in my view, a requirement of policing and firefighting. It is isn't always neccesary, but when it is, boy, it's good to have. Small, weak people can do the job, obviously, but not as well.

[PocketRocket]

Mixed feelings on this one.

I agree with ARGUS and a few others that natives have to learn to integrate further into mainstream society.

But I also believe that they deserve some help along the way.

Reserves are, in many ways, archaic with little value in and of themselves.

A major problem with many reserves is this, they are isolated little communities far from cities, or even towns, that could provide schooling and jobs. So the inhabitants of these small, isolated reserves have no future, nothing to look forward to, except for the stagnation of their own little society.

On the other hand, there are reserves nearer to cities wherein a fairly large segment of the people on the reserve hold jobs in the city.

These people are, needless to say, far more prosperous, with a sense of direction. Consequently suicide and addiction rates are far lower.

I think as a partial solution, we should look at phasing out some of the poorest, most isolated reserves, by moving them nearer to major centers so that they at least have the choice of interacting with mainstream society, and thereby giving them a future to look forward to, and something they can build on economically.

But we should also be looking towards establishing a sense of unity with the native community, rather than this feeling of divisiveness, wherein it's become an "Us and Them" kind of game. This is, after all, Canada, where we supposedly welcome and nurture a variety of different nationalities and cultures. It would be a shame to treat our own native culture with any less respect than we give to those from abroad.

[RB]

before the police and fire services entertain and proceed with hirings have a standardised fitness test among other testing. even following your own example, you suggested "not even a particularly large one" person was able to show capacity for strength well nevermind against who.

the height requirements were remove from application forms, and is monitored by human rights because there is no justifiable reason if a person have the capacity and competency to do a good job. and statistics have shown that a good chuck of the segments of the population are not selected for this very reason.

furthermore, if you have one race running the entire police and fire services as you seem to suggest, how will they be able to managed say city of 55% diverse population.

its no wonder that 80% of the people in Winnipeg jail house are aboriginals.

you are going against the principles of being liberal - means having equal access, a fair starting point, same rights, and a fair outcome. i mean if you have a height requirement it already not a fair start, like people can't work on how to grow and return the following year to reapply, they are just completely excluded.

ok i didn't mention other races or culture because the thread started out with the aboriginals but i sure can make a case for some parallel racism in Toronto, a vibrant and racially heterogeneous cosmopolitan with explicit racial confrontation. so now i question the reason why there are discrepancies between the mainstream and ethnic groups. like why are all the minority groups doing so poorly?

and if you didn't figure it, well here is the reasons, domination over social, economic and political power by others. mind you the mainstream folks will argue in favor of “positive discrimination” since through their practices, they can retain their privileges and look forward to the reproduction of those privileges such as taking care of one another

but here is an example of what i mean:

a black newspaper report driving a Mercedes at 9pm, stopped by the police for no reason at all.

critical examination now, after we have put some preconceived notions of other people into place, we embedded in the mainstream cultural system some believes, and values about "differentness" base on color, language, origin gender etc, and put descrimination into practice. because we have managed to put each different person into some construction, either this group or that group, it is highly unlikely that a black person would have enough wealth to purchase a high end car. after all we dominate over these black folks. you seem to know about economics, so you must know that you have to give up something in order to make a gain, and generally no-one want to give up their share of power. so it only seem natural that this black person is up to some tricks. maybe you have to preconceived notions about blacks.

here are some of those notions, Carl James, a black professor had a confrontation with a white student, who was dismayed at her first class to see a black teacher, worst he had a Caribbean accent, she felt humiliated that a poor, uneducated black people was going to teach her. she didn't recant her objections but was shocked to learn that this professor had a PhD in sociology.

appreciate that magnitude and scope of this racism from people's experiences, the reinforcement of the statistics that ethnic groups are economically poor, and enlighten yourself as to reasons why this is happening?

[Argus]

before the police and fire services entertain and proceed with hirings have a standardised fitness test among other testing. even

Yes, there have always been such tests. However, in order to allow "Non discrimination" for women and short, scrawny people the tests have been watered down again and again. As an example, our local fire department used to require people pick up a heavy dummy and carry it up several flights of stairs. Then they changed it to carrying the dummy DOWN the stairs. And finally, the would-be firefighters are now allowed to just drag the dummy so it bounces down the stairs after them.

And despite all the watering down female and asians consistently finish well back of Caucasians in the competitions. Because of this the fire department is forced to skip over the 50-100 white men who placed ahead of them in order to select women and visible minorities.

Nonsense. Physical strength and fighting ability would seem to be an obvious benefit for police and firefighters in some situations. I never in my life heard anyone wish they were smaller and weaker because they could do a better job.

furthermore, if you have one race running the entire police and fire services as you seem to suggest, how will they be able to managed say city of 55% diverse population. 

Are you saying Whites can't police Blacks and Asians? If that were so then how can Asians and Blacks police Whites? Anyway, the police and fire services are ultimately run by politicians.

furthermore, if you have one race running the entire police and fire services as you seem to suggest, how will they be able to managed say city of 55% diverse population. 

They are overrepresented because of poverty, unemployment and drug and alcohol abuse.

you are going against the principles of being liberal - means having equal access, a fair starting point, same rights, and a fair outcome.

But I am going in favour of common sense. Not all people are created equal. Some are better for a job. I'm okay with that. That's not racism. That's nature.

[RB]

Look it before we can engage in some discussion about racism you have to acknowledge it exist. I don’t have the time come up with my own write-ups so here are other people’s work

quote: racism takes many forms, although it is usually understood in the individual sense. Essentially there are three main forms, individual racism, systemic racism and cultural racism (Henry, Tator, Mattis & Rees,1995). Individual racism manifests itself in individual's attitudes and behaviours, and is the easiest type to identify. Systemic racism consists of the policies and practices of organizations, which directly or indirectly operate to sustain the advantages of peoples of certain "social races". This type of racism is more difficult to address because it is implicit in the policies of organizations and often unconscious. Cultural racism is the basis of both other forms of racism, as it is the value system which is embedded in society which supports and allows discriminatory actions based on perceptions of racial difference, cultural superiority and inferiority.” unquote

below are some papers on racism FYI

I gave you historical examples of all of those racism regarding the aboriginals, Chinese, Japanese, blacks, Jews – which you reject because some of your common sense and mostly denial, and alluding that the problems are of economics - well the racism is also embedded in economics

but proceeding with common sense, here is a simple economy 100 people operating with one (1) service industry = policing

Whites = 45 people

Blacks & others = 55

The police services employ 45 whites to manage 55 blacks and others. Can you share some of the conclusion you draw?

Oh, OK real statistics now from the police

Racialized recruits out of total number

of Police Officers Hired (1998 data)

Toronto _________________ 371 of 5,262 – 7% racial rep.

Montreal _________________97 of 4,062 – 2%

Vancouver _______________73 of 1,084 – 6%

Victoria _________________73 of 1,084 – figure the % for the rest

Calgary _________________51 of 1,250

Edmonton _______________64 of 1,150

Regina _________________13 of 319

Saskatoon________________6 of 387

Winnipeg ________________40 of 1,176

Halifax _________________15 of 403

Peel Regional (Ontario) _____ 81 of 1,144

The firefighters should be around the same numbers.

For women its about gender stereotyping, and thats a shame, because when we look at lots of the sexual harassment cases, and women leaving the services in number and parallel the experience to other male dominated professions such as: construction engineering field, it tells of an uncompromising and unfriendly working environment for women, NOTE: I didn’t say women cannot do the job check Deloitte & Touché and hear what the CEO had to say about women.

For the police, who pride themselves as power (see facts about RACISM AND POLICING RACISM AND POLICINGand the firefighter who "plays" on the hero worship, it is a difficult fit for a woman.

When the women leaves, oh well we knew she could not manage anyway. These men folks make it unbearable for female entry and your bits of common sense tells me that we not just only promote what is DESCRIMINATION and ideal of professions but you also set out to exacerbate the problem.

here are some reading on racism

1) Systemic Racism in employment in Canada: Diagnosing Systemic Racism in Organizational Culture Carol Agocs, Department of Political Science, University of Western Ontario, London, Ontario and Harish Jain Michael G. DeGroote School of Business, McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario

SYSTEMIC RACISM IN EMPLOYMENT IN CANADA

2) Facing hate in Canada

FACING HATE IN CANADA

3) Racial Profiling

RACIAL PROFILING

sorry i am quoting a whole bunch of people but i did not have the time to reply

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear RB,

appreciate that magnitude and scope of this racism from people's experiences, the reinforcement of the statistics that ethnic groups are economically poor, and enlighten yourself as to reasons why this is happening?

Often, racism exists because people are stupid.

However, The peoples of the First Nations had, for millenia, a radically different outlook on the world and their place in it. They didn't have the 'white man's view' of seeking dominion or control over it, they sought to be a part of it.

[Argus]

Dear RB,

appreciate that magnitude and scope of this racism from people's experiences, the reinforcement of the statistics that ethnic groups are economically poor, and enlighten yourself as to reasons why this is happening?

Often, racism exists because people are stupid.

However, The peoples of the First Nations had, for millenia, a radically different outlook on the world and their place in it. They didn't have the 'white man's view' of seeking dominion or control over it, they sought to be a part of it.

They certainly sought "dominion and control" over the territory of their neighbours, engaging in brutal warfare, slavery and canibalism.

All this nonsense about natives dancing through the wilderness with happy fawns and bluebirds looking on smiling and singing bears little resemblance to reality.

[Argus]

Look it before we can engage in some discussion about racism you have to acknowledge it exist.

Oh I freely acknowledge it exists. Everywhere. All I've said is that while individual bigotry is undeniable you have presented nothing to demonstrate any "systemic" racism of any kind. Further, while individual bigotry exists in Canada it is far, far, far less than in most other nations, be they European, African, Middle East or Asian.

I gave you historical examples of all of those racism regarding the aboriginals, Chinese, Japanese, blacks, Jews – which you reject because some of your common sense  and mostly denial, and alluding that the problems are of economics - well the racism is also embedded in economics

I rejected past examples because they are pointless in demonstrating that there is systemic racism TODAY. Did Canada have racist policies and practices in the past? Sure. Did every other nation on Earth of every language, race, colour and religion? Sure. And most were much worse than ours. So what's your point?

but proceeding with common sense, here is a simple economy 100 people operating with one (1) service industry = policing

Whites = 45 people

Blacks & others = 55

The police services employ 45 whites to manage 55 blacks and others.  Can you share some of the conclusion you draw?

The conclusion I draw is that English is not your first language. Perhaps you could have another try at explaining the above? I have no idea what you are saying. 45 white police manage 55 blacks? Huh?

Oh, OK real statistics now from the police

Racialized recruits out of total number

of Police Officers Hired (1998 data)

Toronto _________________ 371 of 5,262 – 7%

Montreal _________________97 of 4,062 – 2%

You are presented statistics but no conclusions. So what do you derive from these statistics? Do you believe visible minorities are underrepresented, and that this is due to racism?

For the police, who pride themselves as power (see facts about RACISM AND POLICING RACISM AND POLICING

Okay, I went to the page, and saw nothing in the way of evidence, just a claim of racism. But this is from an agency which makes no money from the government without claims of racism. I mean, if they came out and said everything is peachy keen and there was hardly any racism out there how much money do you think they'd be getting??

Your other links are to the same organization, and once again present no evidence, just claims that racism exists, and some listing of historical examples of racism. That is not very convincing. If systemic racism exists I want examples. And to reiterate, I believe that discrimination based on size is entirely legitimate for cops and firefighters, and even if it does lead to fewer females and Asians I believe it should be acceptable. Nonetheless, even you point out that this is not done any more.

[RB]

Well it wasn’t by chance I selected Frances Henry article in racial profiling; I support what she says with the rest of the writers in discourse

http://www.yorku.ca/fhenry/backgrounds.htm

The conclusion I draw is that English is not your first language

The difficulty in deciding about an ad hominem fallacy is whether the piece of reasoning such as your irrelevant personal attack is well relevant - we are talking about racism

But here is some information in the a first language i know, only Green Day lyrics says it better than I “fuck off and die”

[Argus]

Well it wasn’t by chance I selected Frances Henry article in racial profiling; I support what she says with the rest of the writers in discourse

http://www.yorku.ca/fhenry/backgrounds.htm

Apparently you don't know how to post a cite. When you want to post a link to something it should be to whatever it is you want us to read, not just the front page of a web site. As with all your previous cites, this one says nothing relevent. Nor am I going to try to find the appropriate citation somewhere on that cite which does have some relevancy.

The conclusion I draw is that English is not your first language

The difficulty in deciding about an ad hominem fallacy is whether the piece of reasoning such as your irrelevant personal attack is well relevant - we are talking about racism

I didn't make a personal attack. your literary skills are so poor I wanted to know if they were a general reflection on your lack of education and intellect, or arose because you were operating in a second language.

But here is some information in the a first language i know, only Green Day lyrics says it better than I “fuck off and die”

Obscenities are no substitute for lucid argument backed up by evidence. If this is the only thing you are capable of writing clearly I suggest you find another sandbox to play in.

[RB]

Apparently you don't know how to post a cite.

Yeah, I admit the pdf files take a long time to load – so I don’t ever try for the link - I usually take the summary with the cache or html link

The conclusion I draw is that English is not your first language

The difficulty in deciding about an ad hominem fallacy is whether the piece of reasoning such as your irrelevant personal attack is well relevant - we are talking about racism

I didn't make a personal attack. your literary skills are so poor I wanted to know if they were a general reflection on your lack of education and intellect, or arose because you were operating in a second language.

ok, this is all rubbish, and does not belong with the discussion – the reason why I took you seriously the second time you mentioned about language is that I had already explained about the language and racism first time around, there are all sorts of hard symbolism attached to racism. it is a sensitive subject. see below posted a couple days back

Is English your first language?

those are the very questions that folks practice in order to identify place of origin so i question your motive and what purpose the identification of language would serve you in this forum.

mind you i took note of your criticism, not that it will help me with my education - news: i do excellent , however it might help me stay focus to target an audience understanding instead of promotion of creative writing so thank you

Obscenities

ok does not belong in the forum either unless you are rather too liberal

[RB]

(theloniusfleabag @ Dec 14 2004, 04:10 PM)

Dear RB,

However, The peoples of the First Nations had, for millenia, a radically different outlook on the world and their place in it. They didn't have the 'white man's view' of seeking dominion or control over it, they sought to be a part of it. 

the Indians culture never left them, and they want their life back. I mean also look at it this way they equate what they knew as equal

1) life equal with earth

2) culture equal with resources

3) indians equal with canada

the "white man" set out to destroy their life and earth, their culture and their resources, and uproot their indianess

now through the lenses they are shifting backwards to a new beginning 3 - 2- 1

[RB]

Development of a City of Toronto Declaration and Plan of Action Regarding the Elimination of Racism in Relation to the United Nations - World Conference Against Racism, Racial Discrimination, Xenophobia and Related Intolerance (UN-WCAR)

website link at the bottom of page

Evidence of racism

Many recent studies across all sectors have found evidence of racism - both direct and systemic-being experienced by residents and workers in Toronto. The following is a summary of recent studies and reports about various sectors.

1)

A 1999 study on racial stereotyping in the media by Ryerson University examined the ways in which some Toronto newspapers stereotype Jamaicans and Vietnamese.

Between 1994 and 1997, forty-five per cent of the articles mentioned Jamaicans in sports and entertainment. There was an over-representation of articles featuring Jamaicans connected with crime, immigration and deportation.

2)

Blacks make up 7 per cent of the Greater Toronto Area population, but they were featured in 44 per cent of the images of minorities used in crime stories.

The study also showed that the media portrayed Vietnamese people as criminally and socially deviant. Thirty-seven per cent of articles featured Vietnamese with crime and 37 per cent with other social problems.

3)

The Ontario Human Rights Commission reported that in 1998-99, 64 per cent of its complaints were based on race, colour, ethnic origin and creed, with employment being the highest area of discrimination.

The Commission also noted that in addition to systemic patterns of discrimination which result in segregation, under-employment, unequal pay, etc., there are many sectors in which workers continue to be subjected to direct forms of discrimination, including racist comments, sexual remarks and graffiti.

4)

The 1999 Annual Report of the Canadian Human Rights Commission noted that while the representation of visible minority groups and Aboriginal people is increasing in the public and private sectors covered by federal employment equity legislation, these groups were still below projected rates for Canada.

The Commission noted that in 1998, Aboriginal hiring in the private sector was at 1.4 per cent below the availability level of 2.1 per cent and that Aboriginal people experienced disproportionate numbers of terminations.

Visible minority representation increased to 9.9 per cent which was also below the 10.3 per cent availability rate established by the 1996 Census.

5)

The 2000 study commissioned by the City from Dr. Ornstein of the Institute for Social Research at York University, "Ethno-Racial Inequality in the City of Toronto", found that for ethno-racial minorities, the level of education attained does not translate into higher paid, stable employment.

For example, the education levels of Blacks, African and Caribbean Torontonians was only slightly below the percentage level of the general population, yet this community faced 19 per cent of unemployment compared to 8.1 per cent faced by persons of European origins.

A similar pattern exists for the Arab and West Asian population for whom 12.8 per cent are university graduates but experience an unemployment rate 10.8 per cent higher than the general population.

6)

The lack of recognition of non-Canadian credentials and work experience results in the under-utilization of many immigrant professionals who are unable to find entry level positions in the field of their professional competence.

A 1999 survey by the Toronto Star showed that 25 per cent of South Asian new immigrants were professionals in their home countries but only 13 per cent of all South Asians were able to find employment in their fields.

7)

The 1999 study by the Centre for Equality Rights in Accommodation, the Hugh Barnett Report, reported on discrimination in housing and noted the linkages between race and income.

The Report found that people were discriminated against on the basis of colour, but officially refused accommodation because of income level. The researchers found that landlords state that they do not rent to people from specific countries or that they prefer to rent to people from their own culture.

8)

A 1999 Goldfarb study, Toronto Star found that 62 per cent of Blacks in Toronto experienced discrimination based on their race. Thirty-five per cent of Black respondents reported that their children had been victims of verbal assaults or taunts and 10 per cent had been subject to physical abuse.

9)

The 1999 Toronto Police Hate Crime Report indicated that consistent with previous reports, the highest reported area of reporting is race, followed by multiple categories, sexual orientation and religion. Some of the factors which contributed to these unprovoked offences include the offender's perception of the victim as a threat to their way of life, their community or their employment opportunities.

Since 1993, there have been 1,588 crimes of hate reported to the Toronto police of which the Black community has been the most victimised, and 50.3 per cent crimes of hate being against people of colour.

10)

The Report of the Commission on Systemic Racism in the Ontario Criminal Justice System (1995) found that between 1986 and 1993, the number of prisoners described as black admitted to Ontario prisons increased 204 per cent while the number of white prisoners admitted increased 23 per cent.

The Report also noted that the pattern of imprisonment decisions for the same offences show that white persons found guilty were less likely than black persons to be sentenced to prison. In addition, white persons were sentenced more leniently than black persons, even though they were more likely to have a criminal record and to have a more serious record. With respect to convictions for drug offences, a sub-sample found that 55 per cent of blacks compared to 36 per cent of whites were sentenced to prison.

These data indicate that ongoing work has to be undertaken to address the inequalities experienced by various communities. The elimination of discrimination and economic disadvantage needs to be addressed in a variety of institutional, legislative, social, economic and political contexts.

Read the entire report here

http://www.pch.gc.ca/progs/multi/wcar/advi...-action_e.shtml

[Argus]

A 1999 study on racial stereotyping in the media by Ryerson University examined the ways in which some Toronto newspapers stereotype Jamaicans and Vietnamese.

God knows you won't find Irishmen stereotyped, right, or conservatives, or religious people? Sterotyping is merely evidence of the kind of media we have, not racism.

Between 1994 and 1997, forty-five per cent of the articles mentioned Jamaicans in sports and entertainment. There was an over-representation of articles featuring Jamaicans connected with crime, immigration and deportation.

I suppose you have not paused to consider that Jamaicans are over-represented in crime, immigration and deportation reports because uh, they are over-represented in crime, immigration and deportation problems? As for mentioning Jamaicans in entertainment and sports - how often do the Irish get mentioned at all?

Blacks make up 7 per cent of the Greater Toronto Area population, but they were featured in 44 per cent of the images of minorities used in crime stories.

United States statistics on crime show Blacks are involved in half of all violent crime. We don't keep statistics on this in Canada, but everyone knows that Blacks are involved in a hugely disproportionate number of criminal actions, especially violent crimes. Most of the men murdered in Toronto last year - and in Ottawa - were Blacks involved in crime, killed by other Blacks involved in crime. A Toronto Division Chief once commented that Blacks made up 5% of the population of his division but were responsible for over 90% of street crime. That caused an uproar, not because the facts were untrue but because he said it.

The study also showed that the media portrayed Vietnamese people as criminally and socially deviant. Thirty-seven per cent of articles featured Vietnamese with crime and 37 per cent with other social problems.

An Asian crime gang officer (Chinese, btw) once commented publicly that Vietnames were responsible for most Asian crime. That also brought howls of complaint - though nobody seemed to question that he was right.

The Ontario Human Rights Commission reported that in 1998-99, 64 per cent of its complaints were based on race, colour, ethnic origin and creed, with employment being the highest area of discrimination.

Which is evidence of nothing. OF COURSE most of the complaints will be on race, colour, ethnic origin or creed.

The Commission also noted that in addition to systemic patterns of discrimination which result in segregation, under-employment, unequal pay, etc., there are many sectors in which workers continue to be subjected to direct forms of discrimination, including racist comments, sexual remarks and graffiti.

I've already told you that mushy generalities from organizations which depend on racism to survive don't convince me of anything.

The 1999 Annual Report of the Canadian Human Rights Commission noted that while the representation of visible minority groups and Aboriginal people is increasing in the public and private sectors covered by federal employment equity legislation, these groups were still below projected rates for Canada.

Equality of opportunity does not equal equality of results. Most adult visible minority members are still immigrants from third world nations. Their education and job skill levels, not to mention language skills are not up to par with people born and raised in Canada.

The Commission noted that in 1998, Aboriginal hiring in the private sector was at 1.4 per cent below the availability level of 2.1 per cent and that Aboriginal people experienced disproportionate numbers of terminations.

Aboriginals have a problem with crime and alcoholism (this is well documented so don't bitch at me for saying it), and with the kind of work standards often required in our culture, ie, punctuality. Their own culture is more laid back and not used to this to-the-minute requirement for attendance, breaks, lunch, etc. Not to mention showing up absolutely positively every single day, even if you want to do something else.

For example, the education levels of Blacks, African and Caribbean Torontonians was only slightly below the percentage level of the general population, yet this community faced 19 per cent of unemployment compared to 8.1 per cent faced by persons of European origins.

Slightly below is a statistical lie. The truth, as far as I know, is that while many claim to have high school and college the actual education recieved was not on par with what is required here. This is not a statement judging them on race. I once saw a documentary showing the standards of Russian doctors and basically demonstrating that on the whole our nurses are better trained than their doctors.

A 1999 Goldfarb study, Toronto Star found that 62 per cent of Blacks in Toronto experienced discrimination based on their race. Thirty-five per cent of Black respondents reported that their children had been victims of verbal assaults or taunts and 10 per cent had been subject to physical abuse.

The first part of this is another generality. As for the taunts, hey, all kids get taunted based on what they are, be it black, blue, green, fat, tall, short, nearsighted, whatever.

Since 1993, there have been 1,588 crimes of hate reported to the Toronto police of which the Black community has been the most victimised, and 50.3 per cent crimes of hate being against people of colour.

Do police even investigate crimes of hate against Whites? I don't think so. I've seen suggestions, and even statistics which have shown that Whites are violently attacked by Blacks to a far, far, far higher degree than the latter. Nobody seems to figure hate into the equation, though. This is especially true for sexual crimes. I might dig up the statistics I saw last year which showed a huge disproportione in White on Black sexual assaults vs Black on White sexual assaults. I think it was something like Blacks are sexually assaulted by Whites in 5% of reported "stranger" rapes, while the reverse figure is about 85%.

You can interpret statistics in a lot of ways if you're so inclined.

The Report of the Commission on Systemic Racism in the Ontario Criminal Justice System (1995) found that between 1986 and 1993, the number of prisoners described as black admitted to Ontario prisons increased 204 per cent while the number of white prisoners admitted increased 23 per cent.

This must be racism! At last you have .... er, except that during that period black immigration to Canada raised the numbers of Blacks here by a substantial amount. Oh well.

These are all generalities based on statistical interpretations. Statistics don't tell us the whole story in most cases. You have to explore things more deeply to find the reasons. Why are Blacks dropping out of school more often than Whites, for example? Is it racism? Is it lack of parenting in a community which is more often than not made up of single parent families, is it cultural values and the influence of gangsta rap mentality and culture? Simple statistics are only a start.

I can tell you I've talked to a lot of taxi drivers who claim to be engineers and such, and the only commonality I can say I found was that most of them didn't speak English very well.

[RB]

A 1999 study on racial stereotyping in the media by Ryerson University examined the ways in which some Toronto newspapers stereotype Jamaicans and Vietnamese.

God knows you won't find Irishmen stereotyped, right, or conservatives, or religious people? Sterotyping is merely evidence of the kind of media we have, not racism.

you are only addressing portrayals of stereotyping. look it, empowered groups do not need to address negative images about themselves after all as a group they have enough control over the representations of themselves. Talk about ethnocentrism here.

anyway, i agree stereotyping is harmless. there is a BUT though, when you have preconceived ideas about people, logically, we put them into "this" or "that" group and so using the metal images we can begin to practice discrimination e.g. aboriginal peoples are disposed of their land because of the images of being cannibals or brutes

for the dominant group any negative image usually gets absorbed. Why? because they have the resources to neutralise it. What I mean is that if you have privilege you have an automatic protective cover. and usually we want other striving groups trying to assimilate with the dominant group. so the perception of this group is always going to be, well, good.

For the people we wish to discriminate - here is how it is done e.g.

1) try some jokes, are demeaning, for example

Q: why black people like basketball?

A: because it involves running, shooting and stealing

did you see how simplistic this joke is, and no intentional malice, but it is demeaning because of the stereotyping of blacks as athletes, victims, vixens, and comics

Ok use the images and put it into daily news perspective, any recent shootings. conclusion, more violence within the black community

my answer to you now, is that stereotyping is NOT an error in perception it is more like social control

oh man, you wrote a lot there Argus, I have to sign off here but will continue later ....

[RB]

The Ontario Human Rights Commission reported that in 1998-99, 64 per cent of its complaints were based on race, colour, ethnic origin and creed, with employment being the highest area of discrimination.

Which is evidence of nothing. OF COURSE most of the complaints will be on race, colour, ethnic origin or creed.

Of course I don’t have to explain to you why they put the race, color, creed in the Charter. People are systemically discriminated against. They put laws in place which we hope will deterred such practices as racism. Notice I said deterred – it happens so admit it.

Reports of complaints have to be taken seriously. When the numbers are reported independent of each other it is even more concerns. You just don’t get it, those fired senior excutives from coca cola also didn’t get it – yes, a biggest pay out yet in history because of complains of discrimination.

I mean I have one of those excutives working with me and usually ask to clarify the practice of discrimination – they had complaints galore among other covert racist practices, if they had tended to the complains seriously in hindsight maybe the courts could have ordered an employment decree.

[RB]

Aboriginals have a problem with crime and alcoholism (this is well documented so don't bitch at me for saying it), and with the kind of work standards often required in our culture, ie, punctuality. Their own culture is more laid back and not used to this to-the-minute requirement for attendance, breaks, lunch, etc. Not to mention showing up absolutely positively every single day, even if you want to do something else.

I never heard about aboriginals not complying with breaks etc. by law they are required 2 fifteen minutes break, and 1/2 hour for lunch just as everyone, attendance time is set by the employers, rules are rules - so I am non forgiving when it comes to puntuality, performance

What I know is i just did a report on 2 leading agri. companies existing in geographical areas representing Aboriginals externally, whilst they are hiring in the numbers there are no representation of the said group. Furthermore, in the thousand of employees existing the 2 aboriginals that they had hired previously exited the workforce - I don't know what kinds of conclusion you draw. I what I see is a working environment insensitive, and not very receptive aboriginals.

oops, and one of those companies is being audited by Human Rights Commission

Edited December 19, 2004 by RB

[RB]

These are all generalities based on statistical interpretations..... Simple statistics are only a start.

Statistics identify the huge discrepencies found in ethnic groups when compared with the dominant group and should be taken seriously.

I mean I have the a report somewhere where employment agencies confess that 80% of the time they would not send an "other" person for a job

cultural values and the influence of gangsta rap mentality and culture?

i read a story the other day about a young black canadian, born in canada, but felt he does not belong. people always ask where he is from? and expresses disbelief when he replies canada. the next usual question is where are the parents from? Kai is his name and he relates more to the american culture because he feels included. in canada you have to be white to belong. he says Sir John McDonald first prime minister was not born in canada, but yet he belong. black apparently are represented by some culture, he mentioned shaggy, is shaggy american? it does not feel good to regale these experiences, but it is a start to understanding the way "others" perceive themselves and the way we see them

I once saw a documentary showing the standards of Russian doctors and basically demonstrating that on the whole our nurses are better trained than their doctors

I had a Pakistani doctor say to me, he has been practising for 20 years. How did he become a doctor? well in the 1970's apparently, there were a shortage of doctors in Pakistan, so the government encouraged folks into the profession with free scholarships. study for 3 years and become a doctor. thats it. I was horrified.

the immigrating engineers - I agree, depending where the experience is from, it does not translate into the canadian labor market

no doubt - I agree that some of the education, and profession do not qualify to practice on par what the person did prior thats why the bridging programs now exist

my issue is that the jobs the immigrants do land are general labor and factory work, for example say the new arrival engineer could have been "fit" into a tool and die operator or such perhaps a trades person or a technician but no opportunity is given

Their education and job skill levels, not to mention language skills are not up to par with people born and raised in Canada.

what happen to the idea that people can work to improve themselves, their education, skills etc. They are just not given an opportunity to move beyond certain levels. Sturm did a piece on second generation employment discrimination in the columbia law review. racial inequality exist and the origin is far more complex and elusive than what you say. ok gone are "blacks need not apply" Irish need not apply.

1st generation have to deal with discriminatory exclusion and harassment - with patterns of biasness.

2nd generations deal with practices and patterns of intersections in the workplace and over time are excluded.

we look at the aggregate statistics because race treatment is difficult to trace to actors direct to intentional

I'll give you some information. 1st generations immigrants usually rely on the court system to enforce across the board rules. what these folks don't know is that we are vague and ambiguous in the rules and therefore it undermindes compliance.

So it does not and will not solve a generation of immigrant problems

The education system about the Caribbean kids whose language is English falling being in graduating, is discussed somewhere in the forum