The liberals bring out the gun control dog whistle.

Derek 2.0 · October 8, 2015

Because they're actively researching gun violence, eg, http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/domestic-violence-report-calls-for-better-firearms-control-1.1167325

Your article states, from 1999-2008 (During the LGR), there were 32 homicides related to domestic violence in NB, of them 37.5% were with firearms....so that is ~12 deaths over 9 years, at a rate of ~1.4 deaths a year from firearms in domestic disputes.......Do you have any data with National numbers?

On average, there are ~150 firearm homicides a year in Canada, a number that has been declining for decades, as have homicides in general, of which, firearms account for ~25%.

With that said, as asked by smallc, I fail to see what Women's groups would bring to the table........clearly, those with violent pasts, shouldn't be able to obtain firearms, I think most would agree......as such, Bill C-42 included lifetime firearms bans for those with violent criminal records. Justin Trudeau's Liberals have stated they will repeal C-42 (notice the NDP and Greens do not propose repealing said legislation), so I would assume said Women's groups would oppose such a move?

waldo · October 8, 2015

I already linked to the Harper Governments addition of police officers to CFAC. [waldo: somehow you didn't manage to directly speak to the significant criticism of the CFAC that forced that change... not that it wasn't an "addition"; rather, it was a replacement of "gun enthusiasts" in a cursory move to suggest more balance was being brought to the committee. You kinda missed those details, hey!]

Again dated sources, as such "ways and means" have already been made law through changes to the Firearms Act, absent CFAC recommendations on current firearms classifications. [waldo: WTF! You're replying to my linked reference quote from a linked 2013 Canadian Public Health Association (CPHA) document... 2013 isn't dated... notwithstanding your reply has nothing to do with the actual quote that has the CPHA providing, to you, a most inconvenient summation on the actual mandate of the CFAC... something that goes well beyond your claims the CFAC deals only with "firearms classification". Just another example of why beginning any ongoing discussion with you is a waste of time.

Again, let me ask/request... please provide a substantiation of your statement concerning the CFAC mandate... again, something directly from CFAC... or Canada Public Safety. Thanks in advance.]

I already provided you with an answer. [waldo: you provided your personal assessment... your opinion. I asked you why Harper Conservatives refused to sign the UN Small Arms treaty... after voting for it at the UN. I asked you why Canada was the only NATO country not to have signed the UN treaty. Again, your personal assessment/opinion... not the rationale presented by Harper Conservatives]

So marking a "CA" on firearms will do all that? Again, how does "CA" stamped on newly imported firearms: [waldo: you have the gall to cast derision... while at the same time offering up a lengthy comment on, as you say, "the actual intent", a part of which actually speaks to some of the positive rationale! You can belittle the stamping of imported guns all you like; the obvious intent of that is to aid in tracing where guns found in 'conflict zones' come from... and from which country they may have originally been imported into]

whether you like it or not, Canada is signatory to the UN Firearms Protocol and the Inter-American Convention against the Illicit Manufacturing of and Trafficking in Firearms, Ammunition, Explosives and Other Related Materials (CIFTA) of the Organization of American States... regulations requiring specific markings on firearms were adopted to enable crime guns to be traced, in order to combat organized crime and other criminal activities. In response to those treaties Canada/2004 drafted the Firearms Marking Regulations; specifically: Domestically manufactured firearms must bear the name of the manufacturer, serial number and “Canada” or “CA;” imported firearms must be marked with “Canada” or “CA” and the last two digits of the year of import, e.g. “15” for 2015. The markings must be of specific dimensions to prevent obliteration of the data and to allow for tracing.

Harper Conservatives have refused to bring those regulation into force... deferring them 5 times since 2007, always advising of the need for "additional consultation" - the most recent being a deferral to 2017 with this qualification: "Additional consultation time is required to allow for the determination of a regime for marking firearms that will be beneficial for law enforcement crime gun investigations, without being too onerous for firearms businesses".

as Canada Public Safety itself writes: Law enforcement representatives, such as the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police, have supported the coming into force of the existing Regulations, from the perspective of public safety and national security. Given the value of markings for firearms tracing, they have consistently stressed the importance of having sufficient markings on firearms to render them individually identifiable from each other, for instance, using a serial number with the name of the manufacturer and other specific markings, and for the Regulations to have rigour (e.g. penalties and definitions). They consider these aspects important to ensure law enforcement tracing capability, in order to expedite investigations into specific gun crimes and to help detect firearms trafficking, smuggling and stockpiling. Law enforcement representatives further note the value of import marks, which increase the effectiveness of tracing technology by instantly identifying the most recent country of import to submit a trace request, and by directing investigators on whether to focus on a smuggling operation or domestic trafficking.

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waldo · October 8, 2015

On average, there are ~150 firearm homicides a year in Canada, a number that has been declining for decades, as have homicides in general, of which, firearms account for ~25%.

the classic failure in improper qualification is the homicide rate; yet it remains the ready go-to for proGunners --- how is that rate decrease happening when there are more guns, gun violence isn't decreasing, populations are increasing, gangs are more prevalent, drug related violence seems rampant in large cities, etc.. Well guess what? Wars have indirect consequences... like bringing war theatre medical advances forward, like related/improved emergency/trauma care having an influence in helping to reduce gun (and stabbing) related murders. Gun/stabbling related murders have significantly shifted to become related assaults with victims that previously died now living.

Murder rate drops as more survive gunshots, stabbings - A Canadian today is half as likely to be a homicide victim as in 1975

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Derek 2.0 · October 8, 2015

the classic failure in improper qualification is the homicide rate; yet it remains the ready go-to for proGunners --- how is that rate decrease happening when there are more guns, gun violence isn't decreasing, populations are increasing, gangs are more prevalent, drug related violence seems rampant in large cities, etc.. Well guess what? Wars have indirect consequences... like bringing war theatre medical advances forward, like related/improved emergency/trauma care having an influence in helping to reduce gun (and stabbing) related murders. Gun/stabbling related murders have significantly shifted to become related assaults with victims that previously died now living.

Murder rate drops as more survive gunshots, stabbings - A Canadian today is half as likely to be a homicide victim as in 1975

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Interesting story, but looking at its cited Canadian data, it hardly supports the premise, though aggravated assaults have increased 16%, use of Firearms in the commission of a crime has dropped 15% over the same period.

Derek 2.0 · October 8, 2015

whether you like it or not, Canada is signatory to

---SNIP---

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You're not answering the question, how does "CA" (and the last two years of import) offer anything over what is already available to police through serial numbers and arsenal stamps, both of which, are hardly new technology? I suppose said info would be useful to determine the origin in a country without access to the internet or phones, but most gun makers have online sites were one simply needs to enter the guns serial number to gleam production history......

Edited October 8, 2015 by Charles Anthony
[---SNIP---]

waldo · October 8, 2015

Interesting story, but looking at its cited Canadian data, it hardly supports the premise, though aggravated assaults have increased 16%, use of Firearms in the commission of a crime has dropped 15% over the same period.

the article speaks to comparing homicide (2012 to 1975)... and you're going to presume to offer your assessment based on the 10-year reference provided from the StatsCan data? And, of course, the 70s are typically used by proGunners as a reference to, 'see just how far homicide rates have fallen since then'... without, of course, ever bothering to qualify that drop in the face of... as I said, "more guns, increasing gun violence, population increases, the prevalence of gangs, increased drug related violence, etc.." It's the same-ole, same-ole from proGunners... always pointing to the homicide rate as some quantification of existing gun regulations "working just fine"! :lol:

of course, you somehow manage to ignore those changes/advances that I spoke of as being factors... the medical advances and related/improved emergency/trauma having impacts on saving lives and reducing that homicide rate. The linked article also provides an interesting perspective from law enforcement:

“I like to think we take some of the credit for that,” says Supt. Don Sweet, who is in charge of investigations for Ottawa police. “I think we’re better at what we do. Investigating, interdicting and maybe stopping some of these things from occurring.

“We have our ROPE (repeat-offender parole enforcement) team, we have our high-risk offender management team, we have sexual offender registries, we have a DNA database.”

But Sweet said that Ottawa has seen an increase in shootings, even as its homicide rate has declined. “I think there’s some medical reasons for that,” said Supt. Sweet about the homicide rate.

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waldo · October 8, 2015

You're not answering the question, how does "CA" (and the last two years of import) offer anything over what is already available to police through serial numbers and arsenal stamps, both of which, are hardly new technology? I suppose said info would be useful to determine the origin in a country without access to the internet or phones, but most gun makers have online sites were one simply needs to enter the guns serial number to gleam production history......

no - I answered by providing references to police views on the markings assisting them; improving their abilities to trace... why I even quoted you directly from the Public Safety Canada report; again:

as Canada Public Safety itself writes: Law enforcement representatives, such as the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police, have supported the coming into force of the existing Regulations, from the perspective of public safety and national security. Given the value of markings for firearms tracing, they have consistently stressed the importance of having sufficient markings on firearms to render them individually identifiable from each other, for instance, using a serial number with the name of the manufacturer and other specific markings, and for the Regulations to have rigour (e.g. penalties and definitions). They consider these aspects important to ensure law enforcement tracing capability, in order to expedite investigations into specific gun crimes and to help detect firearms trafficking, smuggling and stockpiling. Law enforcement representatives further note the value of import marks, which increase the effectiveness of tracing technology by instantly identifying the most recent country of import to submit a trace request, and by directing investigators on whether to focus on a smuggling operation or domestic trafficking.

Derek 2.0 · October 8, 2015

no - I answered by providing references to police views on the markings assisting them; improving their abilities to trace... why I even quoted you directly from the Public Safety Canada report; again:

You quoted a report that doesn't answer my very simple question........how will a firearm having stamped "CA15" help Canadian law enforcement?

Derek 2.0 · October 8, 2015

the article speaks to comparing homicide (2012 to 1975)... and you're going to presume to offer your assessment based on the 10-year reference provided from the StatsCan data? And, of course, the 70s are typically used by proGunners as a reference to, 'see just how far homicide rates have fallen since then'... without, of course, ever bothering to qualify that drop in the face of... as I said, "more guns, increasing gun violence, population increases, the prevalence of gangs, increased drug related violence, etc.." It's the same-ole, same-ole from proGunners... always pointing to the homicide rate as some quantification of existing gun regulations "working just fine"!

of course, you somehow manage to ignore those changes/advances that I spoke of as being factors... the medical advances and related/improved emergency/trauma having impacts on saving lives and reducing that homicide rate. The linked article also provides an interesting perspective from law enforcement:

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Waldo, I'm using the data cited by your article, if it poorly proves its intended point, that is not my fault.

waldo · October 8, 2015

You quoted a report that doesn't answer my very simple question........how will a firearm having stamped "CA15" help Canadian law enforcement?

already addressed: I won't presume to speak for law-enforcement and why they believe the markings will assist their abilities in regards public safety and national security.

I note you also refuse to address my 'very simple questions' in regards to why Harper Conservatives refuse to sign the UN Arms Treaty (after voting or it) and why Canada remains the only NATO country not to have signed it.

waldo · October 8, 2015

Waldo, I'm using the data cited by your article, if it poorly proves its intended point, that is not my fault.

no - the article drew a reference to the 2012 released StatsCan data... in the context of a 1975 comparison. You've simply chosen to apply your own context to the article and focus on the StatCan data also including a 2002-2012 summary. I said the same in my prior post... this is why dealing with you is a waste of time.

Derek 2.0 · October 8, 2015

already addressed: I won't presume to speak for law-enforcement and why they believe the markings will assist their abilities in regards public safety and national security.

I note you also refuse to address my 'very simple questions' in regards to why Harper Conservatives refuse to sign the UN Arms Treaty (after voting or it) and why Canada remains the only NATO country not to have signed it.

Fair enough, what would the Waldo assume the benefit of a "CA15" stamped on a firearm would provide?

I did answer your question, cost/money, as in, who is going to pay for it? Will this be an expense born onto ~2 million+ voters?

Derek 2.0 · October 8, 2015

no - the article drew a reference to the 2012 released StatsCan data... in the context of a 1975 comparison. You've simply chosen to apply your own context to the article and focus on the StatCan data also including a 2002-2012 summary. I said the same in my prior post... this is why dealing with you is a waste of time.

No you/the article suggested gun violence hasn't been reduced, just gun deaths in part to medical advancements.......the cited data from 2002-2012 doesn't support that theory.

waldo · October 8, 2015

No you/the article suggested gun violence hasn't been reduced, just gun deaths in part to medical advancements.......the cited data from 2002-2012 doesn't support that theory.

the focus was on homicide... you threw down a big time graph in that regard... you were responded to accordingly, in that context. You said nothing about gun violence until now! And you wonder why I speak of your weasel actions?

if you want to make this a discussion on gun violence - make your opening statement and provide cited substantiation to that end... one that is yours, definitive and all-encompassing. Please proceed, governor!

waldo · October 8, 2015

Fair enough, what would the Waldo assume the benefit of a "CA15" stamped on a firearm would provide?

already answered... again, I won't presume on law-enforcement... to speak above/beyond what I've already provided to you from that law-enforcement perspective

Derek 2.0 · October 8, 2015

the focus was on homicide... you threw down a big time graph in that regard... you were responded to accordingly, in that context. You said nothing about gun violence until now! And you wonder why I speak of your weasel actions?

if you want to make this a discussion on gun violence - make your opening statement and provide cited substantiation to that end... one that is yours, definitive and all-encompassing. Please proceed, governor!

I spoke to gun homicide in said post very clearly, inversely, with the data you provided, the use of firearms in crime has also been reduced in the period of 2002-2012...........the problem is what?

Derek 2.0 · October 8, 2015

already answered... again, I won't presume on law-enforcement... to speak above/beyond what I've already provided to you from that law-enforcement perspective

Alright, then we can assume having "CA" and the date of import will reduce gun crime in Canada somehow........how does that address guns smuggled into the country from the United States, or the millions of guns already in Canada?

waldo · October 8, 2015

I spoke to gun homicide in said post very clearly, inversely, with the data you provided, the use of firearms in crime has also been reduced in the period of 2002-2012...........the problem is what?

Captain Obvious! Yes... the context was homicide as I said in regards the post you made... that you're now linking to - again!

as I said: if you want to make this a discussion on gun violence - make your opening statement and provide cited substantiation to that end... one that is yours, definitive and all-encompassing. Please proceed, governor!

I am done with your standard routine where there's never a reference benchmark to your "ever-shifting dynamic word-play and context juggling". Put it in writing and make it your reference statement.

Derek 2.0 · October 8, 2015

Captain Obvious! Yes... the context was homicide as I said in regards the post you made... that you're now linking to - again!

as I said: if you want to make this a discussion on gun violence - make your opening statement and provide cited substantiation to that end... one that is yours, definitive and all-encompassing. Please proceed, governor!

I am done with your standard routine where there's never a reference benchmark to your "ever-shifting dynamic word-play and context juggling". Put it in writing and make it your reference statement.

Is this your third or fourth time being done? I'm glad we were both able to demonstrate, together, that not only gun homicides have declined in Canada, but also the use of firearms in the commission of crimes.........excellent.

So, since you won't speak for police, we're left wondering how stamping "CA" on legally imported firearms into Canada will reduce said (declining) gun violence further.

waldo · October 8, 2015

Alright, then we can assume having "CA" and the date of import will reduce gun crime in Canada somehow........how does that address guns smuggled into the country from the United States, or the millions of guns already in Canada?

you've been answered, multiple times now. As I said in response to your last attempt: "already answered... again, I won't presume on law-enforcement... to speak above/beyond what I've already provided to you from that law-enforcement perspective". Perhaps your task should be to attempt to counter why law-enforcement feels the markings are a value-add to their work in addressing public safety and national security.

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waldo · October 8, 2015

I'm glad we were both able to demonstrate, together, that not only gun homicides have declined in Canada, but also the use of firearms in the commission of crimes.........excellent.

I offered qualifications that speak to that reduced homicide rate. And you... I don't seem to recall you adding anything in that regard... let's read you attribute that reduced rate to... to what?

and no - in terms of gun violence I will offer my own "excellent"! It's clear you want nothing to do with my emphatic request stating that, as I said:

if you want to make this a discussion on gun violence - make your opening statement and provide cited substantiation to that end... one that is yours, definitive and all-encompassing. Please proceed, governor!

I am done with your standard routine where there's never a reference benchmark to your "ever-shifting dynamic word-play and context juggling". Put it in writing and make it your reference statement.

Derek 2.0 · October 8, 2015

you've been answered, multiple times now. As I said in response to your last attempt: "already answered... again, I won't presume on law-enforcement... to speak above/beyond what I've already provided to you from that law-enforcement perspective". Perhaps your task should be to attempt to counter why law-enforcement feels the markings are a value-add to their work in addressing public safety and national security.

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That's what I said above:

So, since you won't speak for police, we're left wondering how stamping "CA" on legally imported firearms into Canada will reduce said (declining) gun violence further.

Since you won't speak to it, we're left assume that "CA" stamped on newly imported firearms will reduce gun violence in Canada.....somehow.

Derek 2.0 · October 8, 2015

I offered qualifications that speak to that reduced homicide rate. And you... I don't seem to recall you adding anything in that regard... let's read you attribute that reduced rate to... to what?

and no - in terms of gun violence I will offer my own "excellent"! It's clear you want nothing to do with my emphatic request stating that, as I said:

if you want to make this a discussion on gun violence - make your opening statement and provide cited substantiation to that end... one that is yours, definitive and all-encompassing. Please proceed, governor!

I am done with your standard routine where there's never a reference benchmark to your "ever-shifting dynamic word-play and context juggling". Put it in writing and make it your reference statement.

You offered data, I offered data........good! From reviewing said data, gun violence, and even the use of guns in the commission of crimes, has been declining, despite the lack of "CA" stamped on new firearms.

Is this not a good thing for Canadians?

waldo · October 8, 2015

Since you won't speak to it, we're left assume that "CA" stamped on newly imported firearms will reduce gun violence in Canada.....somehow.

I don't have to speak to it - I've offered my acceptance of the position taken by law-enforcement... with representation of that already detailed and provided. You yourself made a statement on the tracing of imported guns back to 'hostile areas'... what countries are they filtering through. And now you have the gall to shift that to a "reduce gun violence in Canada" focus? You are clearly being purposely disingenuous and intellectually dishonest.

waldo · October 8, 2015

You offered data, I offered data........good! From reviewing said data, gun violence, and even the use of guns in the commission of crimes, has been declining, despite the lack of "CA" stamped on new firearms.

Is this not a good thing for Canadians?

you didn't offer any data on gun violence... your graphic was on homicide. Again:

if you want to make this a discussion on gun violence - make your opening statement and provide cited substantiation to that end... one that is yours, definitive and all-encompassing. Please proceed, governor!

I am done with your standard routine where there's never a reference benchmark to your "ever-shifting dynamic word-play and context juggling". Put it in writing and make it your reference statement.