president bush knows you...

[cgarrett]

here in bc, the government is desperately attempting to outsource data control to american based companies. it is clear that once this has occurred then that information is freely available to the u.s. government under the infamous patriot act. under the patriot act, these agencies may view this information without due process, at their discretion and without notifying the relevant parties.

do you agree with this? as a tax payer, do you feel that you have the right to prevent foreign countries from viewing your personal information?

[Stoker]

I've nothing to hide, do you?

As a taxpayer (that lives in BC), I'm rather glad to hear that our government is looking at ways to save taxpayer money.

[caesar]

I have nothing to hide either but I think this is a dangerous and stupid thing to do. Besides, why are we using foreign countries to do jobs when we have plenty of available and qualified Canadians that can do the job without giving foreign interests any personal information. Even the BC govt is getting nervous and attempting to close some of these doors they have opened.

[Stoker]

What sort of data are we talking about?

Also, whats dangerous and stupid about it?

[kimmy]

In all seriousness, what are people concerned that the CIA will use this information for? I assume sore throats and broken arms are of little interest to American intelligence. What sort of stuff *would* they be looking for in medical records?

-kimmy

[caesar]

Medical records have always been protected. People need to discuss more with their doctors than broken arms or sore throats. There could be issues of mental health such as depression or one's sexuality that could be used against them in their employment or just blackmail. It could provide links to other information. It matters not; it is just none of anyone's business. We do not need anyone; especially a foreign government or agency with the right to snoop in our personal records. We are quite capable of keeping our own records.

I have been followed on the internet due to checking sites that they must have found "suspicious" I was on a forum held by our Foreign affairs and was checking out sites on Ramsey Clarke. They can even check out what books you read at a library. Who needs them jumping to the wrong conclusions as they did with Iraq.

[caesar]

As a taxpayer (that lives in BC), I'm rather glad to hear that our government is looking at ways to save taxpayer money.

How is this saving us money? Using local labour helps our economy and returns money via taxes to the provincial treasury.

[Stoker]

Medical records have always been protected. People need to discuss more with their doctors than broken arms or sore throats. There could be issues of mental health such as depression or one's sexuality that could be used against them in their employment or just blackmail. It could provide links to other information. It matters not; it is just none of anyone's business. We do not need anyone; especially a foreign government or agency with the right to snoop in our personal records. We are quite capable of keeping our own records.

So you fear that the United States government is going to use your medical records to blackmail you?

[Cartman]

whats dangerous and stupid about it?

Having your personal information "out there" creates opportunities for mistakes and misuse. Police often warn us about identity fraud etc. Not so long ago, the feds. lost a few hard drives with our personal information and the authorities were seriously concerned for good reason.

Equifax has much of your personal information and they realize that they often have improper, inaccurate information that keeps people from obtaining credit for homes, cars etc. At least they have state regulations allowing people to challenge these errors. After working in the retail industry, I KNOW that mistakes occur too often to hard working, decent people.

So you fear that the United States government is going to use your medical records to blackmail you? 

What if a foreign state used this information for racial profiling purposes or security purposes and you were mistakenly detained at a border crossing or airport and labeled a threat? As a Canadian, you would likely have no recourse to challenge the allegations. What if it was somehow mistakenly determined that you possibly constituted some sort of a health threat and the state wanted to conduct medical tests upon you? Bureaucracies do make mistakes and these mistakes can be very damaging.

Two examples from Gary T. Marx

"A Massachusetts nursing home resident lost her eligibility for government medical assistance because of a match of bank and welfare records...she had more than the minimum amount welfare recipients are permitted in a savings account. What the computer did not know was that the money was held in trust for a local funeral director".

"The Educational Testing Center uses profiling to help discover cheating. In 1982, it sent out 2,000 form letters alleging 'copying' to takers of its scholastic aptitude test based partly on computer analysis...Students were told that in two weeks their scores would be canceled and colleges notified, unless they provided 'additional information' to prove they had not cheated".

How do you prove you did not cheat?

I have nothing to hide, but I would rather not be videotaped when in the changeroom or bathroom.

When the federal government tries to make people register their guns, people are up in arms freaking out claiming that the information might be misused for other purposes. You should be more concerned when your medical records are being handed out to a foreign company. Whether you have something to hide is not the issue here. What is at stake is your privacy and freedom. More personal information being disseminated means more mistakes and less freedom.

[Cartman]

Where the hell is Hugo when you need him? :angry:

[Guest eureka]

I don't think that I have anything to hide, either. I have, however, been involved in things that government does not like since I was, in my time, a thorn in the side of certain authoritarian. That, I am sure, is on record with our own security. It involves nothing that was illegal and is a record that would be applauded as an essential part of democratic process.

It is not information that I would wish this American administration to be privy to. It is not information that our government is alowed by law to make public or to share with any other authority. It is information that the Patriot Act could be used to make things difficult for me in the US.

I would suggest that someone in B.C. should seek an injunction against the Provincial government to prevent this leakage and then, pillory Campbell for what is next to treasonous behaviour.

[Hugo]

Where the hell is Hugo when you need him?

Ta-da!

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights... to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed.

That is an excerpt from the preamble to the Declaration of Independence.

If all men are created equal, and have inalienable rights, these rights must be equal. Therefore, if a person has a right over me, I must have the same right over him. So if the US government (or rather, the individuals constituting the US government) can access confidential information about me without my knowledge or consent, I must have the right to access confidential information about the US government without their knowledge or consent.

If this isn't the case, it is a gross violation of the principles on which the USA was founded.

Ah, you say, but the government was elected by the people to do this. The US government has the mandate of the masses, therefore it can exercise these rights over me without reciprocity.

However, if you do not have a right, you cannot defer it to somebody else. I don't have a right to murder. I can't grant the right to murder to my associates, friends or employees because I don't have that right myself. I cannot give what I do not have.

For the government to be justly able to invade privacy without reciprocity, they must have acquired that right from the electorate, who could only defer that right to government if they had that right in the first place.

So, do the majority of people in the USA have the right to violate my privacy without my knowledge and consent, and also the right to prevent me doing the same to them? Who are these people above people, these ubermensch who walk amongst us mere peons? Republican voters? The Bush dynasty? The Senate or Congress? I thought the US Government was supposed to be of the people and by the people, but if that government has rights that exceed those of the people, it is no longer a government of and by the people, according to its own founding documents.

[Slavik44]

So you fear that the United States government is going to use your medical records to blackmail you?

What is personal information?

"Personal information" under the Act means information about an "identifiable individual."

For example, "personal information" includes your

name, age, weight, height

medical records

income, purchases and spending habits

race, ethnic origin and colour

blood type, DNA code, fingerprints

marital status and religion

education; and

home address and phone number

How does the Act protect my personal information?

Your ability to control your personal information is key to your right to privacy.

The Act gives you control over your personal information by requiring organizations to obtain your consent to collect, use or disclose information about you. The Act confers certain rights on individuals, and imposes specific obligations on organizations.

I have no need to defend my right to privacy, and I have been given no compeeling reason as to why I should out source my privacy, privacy is a human right, and if it is privacy first what comes next?

It reminds me of a nice little poem as to why I should defend my rights...

First they came for the Jews

            And I did not speak out –

            Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for the communists

            And I did not speak out –

            Because I was not a communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists

            And I did not speak out –

            Because I was not a trade unionist.

                  Then they came for me –

And there was no-one left

            To speak out for me.

[Stoker]

Is anybody going to answer how the United States government is going to use medical records against you?

If you are a terrorist threat, your a terrorist threat......

If you are a potentail health hazard, your a health hazard.....

Would we as Canadians want terrorist threats and potentail health threats into Canada?

[brianw]

Is anybody going to answer how the United States government is going to use medical records against you?

Wasn't a Canadian sent to Syria by the US recently as a suspected terrorist? Of course they won't use information against us, and I have some swampland ...

I take it you have voluntarily submitted a DNA sample to be kept on file, since you have nothing to hide.

I take it you would not mind having webcams scattered throughout your home as you do not have anything to hide.

Someone may not have anything to hide if they have a rash in a sensitive area but really who elses business is it but theirs?

Statements like "if you don't have anything to hide ..." have been used for a long time to "fear monger" people into giving up their rights.

Would you please wright a complete diary of of your life, including personal thoughts and fantasies, and publish it on the internet? You don't have anything to hide so this should not be a problem for you.

[caesar]

So you fear that the United States government is going to use your medical records to blackmail you? 

Who knows what they would do with our records. They have some agenda, since they passed a law to remove these protected rights from their own citizens. I do not get to vote for their leader ; so keep their grimey mitts off any of my records be it medical, financial or which sites I go to on the internet.

[Hugo]

Is anybody going to answer how the United States government is going to use medical records against you?

I tell you what, Stoker, I'll answer your question as soon as you can tell me what right the US government had to pass the Patriot Act in the first place, and what gave the US government the right to access my medical records.

[Slavik44]

Is anybody going to answer how the United States government is going to use medical records against you?

If you are a terrorist threat, your a terrorist threat......

If you are a potentail health hazard, your a health hazard.....

Would we as Canadians want terrorist threats and potentail health threats into Canada?

Listen if the U.S has proof that they know of a terrorist they can use conventional methods to aquire the ability to look at their personal records. If they don't have proof they have absolutley no right to break the law. This isn't about me jsutifying my position my position is justified by Canadian Law, you need to give me one godo reason as to why I should allow my rights to be violated, and not some vague generalization that holds ABSOLUTLEY NO TRUTH to it.

[Stoker]

Wasn't a Canadian sent to Syria by the US recently as a suspected terrorist? Of course they won't use information against us, and I have some swampland ...

Did the United States use that persons medical records against them?

I take it you have voluntarily submitted a DNA sample to be kept on file, since you have nothing to hide.

Sure I would.......If there was a rape/murder in my area (and I fit the general discription of the suspect) and the police asked for samples, I'd be more then willing to give mine.

I take it you would not mind having webcams scattered throughout your home as you do not have anything to hide.

If I were a suspect in a crime, would the police need my consent to moniter my activities?

Someone may not have anything to hide if they have a rash in a sensitive area but really who elses business is it but theirs?

If that rash could lead to a public health crisis, it should be everybodys.

Statements like "if you don't have anything to hide ..." have been used for a long time to "fear monger" people into giving up their rights.

Who's doing the fear mongering again? I'm saying there is nothing to worry about, and your making something out of nothing

Would you please wright a complete diary of of your life, including personal thoughts and fantasies, and publish it on the internet? You don't have anything to hide so this should not be a problem for you.

Is the United States government publishing the records? Making them avalibale on the internet for the public?

With that said, if I thought I could sell a book about my life, and make buckets of money, I would.

Who knows what they would do with our records. They have some agenda, since they passed a law to remove these protected rights from their own citizens. I do not get to vote for their leader ; so keep their grimey mitts off any of my records be it medical, financial or which sites I go to on the internet.

Some agenda? What was the reason for the Patriot act? There's your agenda......

I tell you what, Stoker, I'll answer your question as soon as you can tell me what right the US government had to pass the Patriot Act in the first place, and what gave the US government the right to access my medical records.

Sure. The Patriot act was passed to ease law enforcements job in fighting terror and terror related crimes.

As for your second question, if you live in BC, when the Campbell government gave your records to American companies, he (not the Americans) gave up "your rights".

Listen if the U.S has proof that they know of a terrorist they can use conventional methods to aquire the ability to look at their personal records. If they don't have proof they have absolutley no right to break the law. This isn't about me jsutifying my position my position is justified by Canadian Law, you need to give me one godo reason as to why I should allow my rights to be violated, and not some vague generalization that holds ABSOLUTLEY NO TRUTH to it.

It's quite obvious that conventional methods might not always work {see 9/11}.

Now I've answered your questions, answer mine.

As a Canadian, would you not want the government to use all means necessary to protect you from a terrorist attack and/or a public health crisis?

[Hugo]

Sure. The Patriot act was passed to ease law enforcements job in fighting terror and terror related crimes.

That's not an answer. You've told me why the Patriot Act was passed, but I asked you what right they had to pass it, not why they passed it. One can have a reason for doing something without having a right to do it.

As for your second question, if you live in BC, when the Campbell government gave your records to American companies, he (not the Americans) gave up "your rights".

Assuming I lived in BC (which I don't anyway), why does the Campbell government hold my rights? Shouldn't I hold them?

[Stoker]

That's not an answer. You've told me why the Patriot Act was passed, but I asked you what right they had to pass it, not why they passed it. One can have a reason for doing something without having a right to do it.

Is it not a right to be safe in ones own country?

Assuming I lived in BC (which I don't anyway), why does the Campbell government hold my rights? Shouldn't I hold them?

If you lived in BC, you still hold your rights.........if you disagree with Campbell, you have the right to vote him out in the Spring.

Now Hugo, as a Canadian, would you not want the government to use all means necessary to protect you from a terrorist attack and/or a public health crisis?

[Slavik44]

That's not an answer. You've told me why the Patriot Act was passed, but I asked you what right they had to pass it, not why they passed it. One can have a reason for doing something without having a right to do it.

Is it not a right to be safe in ones own country?

Assuming I lived in BC (which I don't anyway), why does the Campbell government hold my rights? Shouldn't I hold them?

If you lived in BC, you still hold your rights.........if you disagree with Campbell, you have the right to vote him out in the Spring.

Now Hugo, as a Canadian, would you not want the government to use all means necessary to protect you from a terrorist attack and/or a public health crisis?

that depends on wether or not the means justify the end

[Slavik44]

Listen if the U.S has proof that they know of a terrorist they can use conventional methods to aquire the ability to look at their personal records. If they don't have proof they have absolutley no right to break the law. This isn't about me jsutifying my position my position is justified by Canadian Law, you need to give me one godo reason as to why I should allow my rights to be violated, and not some vague generalization that holds ABSOLUTLEY NO TRUTH to it.

It's quite obvious that conventional methods might not always work {see 9/11}.

Now I've answered your questions, answer mine.

As a Canadian, would you not want the government to use all means necessary to protect you from a terrorist attack and/or a public health crisis?

sorry you didn't respond satisfactorily to my question.

[Stoker]

that depends on wether or not the means justify the end

Whats worse than death and destruction casued by a terrorist attack or a break-out of another SARS-like virus?

sorry you didn't respond satisfactorily to my question.

Actions speak louder than words

[caesar]

Now Hugo, as a Canadian, would you not want the government to use all means necessary to protect you from a terrorist attack and/or a public health crisis?

NO, not without the approval of the people. Look at Bush's action which he claims is needed to protect America. Politicians sometimes lie, sometimes use excuses for actions that have some other agenda; and sometimes politicians do not have the right intelligence. I do not believe that we need to offer any political machine the right to do anything they wish just by claiming it is necessary to protect us. There are limits and taking away any of my privacy rights is not okay.