Towards a truly moral state

[Argus]

I have seen little in Canada's foreign affairs policies over the past twenty five years which supports the apparent belief of so many Canadians that we are less selfish than others, that we are more interested in morality, or that we truly care about human rights. And I wonder why that is.

Canadians tend to be a fairly moral and just people, with a reasonably good understanding of right and wrong. But our behaviour in the world belies this. We generally act only in our own interests, and advocate for "good" causes only where it will cost us little and offend no one important.

Why, for example, do we continue to fawn over the Chinese and ignore their horrendous human rights record? Generally speaking, trade with China does us no good at all. China continuously violates all trade rules and regulations. It exports products from its slave labour camps, despite agreements not to, engages in dumping - lying about its true production costs, and gets around trade rules by exporting to third countries, having their products relabelled, and then sending them to us. We have a growing trade deficit with China, and what we do export to them usually produces few or no benefits to Canada.

Generally, China requires foreign companies to set up shop there and build their goods there, then requires they reinvest most or all of the profits in China. There are obvious benefits to the bottom line of the companies which do this, but no real benefit to Canada. So why do we suck up to them, shun Taiwan, a relatively free country, and ignore their brutal human rights record? Because those Canadian companies donate money to the Liberals and put pressure on them to behave.

Canada sucks up to any country with trade, or the possibility of trade. Remember those gratuitous sales trips to Asia with Chretien and the premiers desperately trying to sell nuclear reactors to the likes of Indonesia? Who cared about their human rights record? Not us. And in the case of CANDU sales we generally had to finance them anyway!

What would be real economic impact of removing our embassies from third world countries where we sell very little anyway, on the position these governments are illegitimate? It would insult a lot of governments, but how important are they to us anyway? Maybe being recognized by Canada would really mean something in the world.

For that matter, why not recognize Taiwan and put an embassy there, and tell the Chinese to get lost? Real trade with Taiwan would explode, and far, far surpass the phony, one-way trade with China.

As for our foreign aid, why not redirect it only towards democratic nations, or nations which are striving for democracy? There is a real case to be made that foreign aid simply extends the agony of many nations under the control of corrupt dictatorships by helping keep life liveable. But if we allowed conditions to deteriorate then those governments would likely fail.

And why do we give money to governments which spend enormous amounts of money on their military? Hell, if we can't afford to fund our military why should we be helping them fund theirs? Do you know we give millions to India every year? India spends billions on its nuclear weapons program, its development of missiles and missile technology, and on such things as aircraft carriers and nuclear submarines. And we're giving these people financial aid!?

That's to say nothing, of course, of India's own horrendous human rights abuses - which, btw, is what we do as a nation - say nothing about them.

If people really want Canada to be seen as a symbol of morality in the world perhaps we ought to try and act like one.

[caesar]

Why, for example, do we continue to fawn over the Chinese and ignore their horrendous human rights record? Generally speaking, trade with China does us no good at all. China continuously violates all trade rules and regulations. It exports products from its slave labour camps, despite agreements not to, engages in dumping - lying about its true production costs, and gets around trade rules by exporting to third countries, having their products relabelled, and then sending them to us. We have a growing trade deficit with China, and what we do export to them usually produces few or no benefits to Canada.

Sound a lot like our trade relations with the USA.

If we don't try for trade with China; the USA is and will leave us way behind. We have not been vigourously seeking trade with China as we should. China is posed to replace us as the largest trade partner of the USA.

[caesar]

There is a real case to be made that foreign aid simply extends the agony of many nations under the control of corrupt dictatorships by helping keep life liveable. But if we allowed conditions to deteriorate then those governments would likely fail.

Like in North Korea perhaps?????? Things couldn't get much worse for the people there.

However, I do agree, if a country has the cash for a large military or a space program (Russia) why are we giving aid or forgiving debts. Defer the debt, perhaps, in times of stress but not completely forgive. Nobody forgives any of my debts.

[Argus]

Sound a lot like our trade relations with the USA.

If we don't try for trade with China; the USA is and will leave us way behind. We have not been vigourously seeking trade with China as we should. China is posed to replace us as the largest trade partner of the USA.

The difference is we have an enormous trade surplus with the United States. We actually ship them goods, like cars, and they buy them! China doesn't want finished goods. It wants us to build things there, and keep the profits there. So just what is the value of trade with China? Even if it increases tenfold, what good does it do Canadians? What we should do is clamp down on importans from China and hold their feet to the fire for their illegal trade behaviour and human rights abuses.

[caesar]

We do have to start somewhere with China. They do want more than raw products (which again makes them the same as the USA) I would guess that most of our trade surplus comes from energy (oil, naturalgas, and electricity) So......

China is now looking for luxuries for their single child spoilt children. They are one of our chief exports for coal,m I believe; not a product that we use much more but one that can reopen old mining towns and make them profitable again.

[caesar]

Products Currently Needed by Some Chinese Companies:

(Please contact BLI if you are interested in selling. Thank you.)

Kraft paper

Edible whey power

Forage whey power

Fish meal

Corn

Thermal insulation material

Glass

None of these are raw products are they?

[Argus]

We do have to start somewhere with China.  They do want more than raw products (which again makes them the same as the USA)  I would guess that most of our trade surplus comes from energy (oil, naturalgas, and electricity)

We certainly sell a lot of raw material to the US, but we also sell automobiles, trains, aircraft, electronics, etc. China doesn't want any of that. It wants raw materials at dirt cheap prices. If you want to sell them anything more you have to build it there and keep the profits there. We will NEVER be able to sell them as much as they sell us, not EVER. We have a trade deficit which is only going to grow greater. Like the Japanese, they throw all kinds of trade barriers up to imports, some of them dishonest, some of them corrupt, some of them natural. China is the world's great factory for forged products, for example. No matter what we make they can make it there cheaper. Patent or no patent.

We might get a few jobs from selling raw coal, but not nearly as many as we're going to lose from their growing imports. And just wait until they start shipping cars to us. Their cars, made with slave labour, using the exact same blueprints as the ones Ford, GM and Chrysler use, for two thirds the price.

Besides, why do you want to do business with a scummy country like that?

[August1991]

China doesn't want any of that. It wants raw materials at dirt cheap prices. If you want to sell them anything more you have to build it there and keep the profits there. We will NEVER be able to sell them as much as they sell us, not EVER. We have a trade deficit which is only going to grow greater.

Argus, some points:

1. Don't worry about trade deficits/surpluses. By definition, the whole world must be in balance. (In fact, Canada is more or less in balance but that's irrelevant.)

2. What's your problem with China?

3. Imagine Martians offered us everything we now produce in Canada in exchange for a glass of water. Should we refuse the deal on the grounds that everyone in Canada would lose their jobs?

4. Trade is identical to new technology. It means we get more in return for giving up less. Both sides gain from a good deal. The Chinese are not ripping us off.

5. What is Calgary's trade position with the rest of Alberta?

6. Argus, do you bake your own bread? Do you make your own clothes? I'll bet you have "outsourced" those activities so that you can do something else with your time.

7. If China is willing to ship us stuff and we don't have to ship any stuff back (your idea of a trade deficit), well, that sounds pretty good to me. If you disagree, I've got some dirty windows that you are welcome to come and clean. Sorry, but I can't offer anything in return. But no doubt, you'll view it as a good deal...

8. All of your points were resolved by economists about 200 years ago. (Well, about 600 years ago, it was determined that the world is not flat. It takes time for some ideas to ideas to filter down.)