Taiwan is part of China!

[WWWTT]

Canada is fully integrated with the US economy. 85% of our trade is with the US yet there is no appetite for merging the countries. The same will be true of Taiwan which has a distinct culture and political system.

Lots of distinct culture in China. There's like 1.4 billion people there

It is official US policy to see Taiwan merge with the Mainland, and also the current government in Taiwan wants closer relations.

Here's a good link with a wide perspective.

http://video.wucftv.org/video/2365071469/

If you have time, watch it to the end and hopefully your perspective may change. (I hope more that the link doesn't go 403 on me!)

WWWTT

[TimG]

Here's a good link with a wide perspective.

Try addressing my points about what sovereignty is. Speculation about what may or may not happen in the future does not support your nonsensical claim that Taiwan is not an independent country today.

Also: the US does NOT want a merger. The US wants a democratic state with a free press in China. This implies the US wants the people of Taiwan to be free to decide what they want. Right now they are not free to decide because they live next to a big bully that threatens to invade if they decided to formalize their status as an independent country.

Edited April 26, 2014 by TimG

[WWWTT]

Try addressing my points about what sovereignty is. Speculation about what may or may not happen in the future does not support your nonsensical claim that Taiwan is not an independent country today.

Also: the US does NOT want a merger. The US wants a democratic state with a free press in China. This implies the US wants the people of Taiwan to be free to decide what they want. Right now they are not free to decide because they live next to a big bully that threatens to invade if they decided to formalize their status as an independent country.

No sorry but your are looking at this from a perspective that is eager for conflict and war.

Whereas the Chinese model is in an attempt to lesson tensions and re integrate the lessor province.

It's too bad that the two Koreas can't share the same model.

WWWTT

[TimG]

No sorry but your are looking at this from a perspective that is eager for conflict and war.

You are really channeling George Orwell. "War is peace!" - "Freedom is Slavery!".

Saying that the people living in a defacto independent country are the only people with any say on whether they stay that way does not create conflict unless your are greedy despot wishing to control things you have no right to.

Whereas the Chinese model is in an attempt to lesson tensions and re integrate the lessor province.

The Chinese model is to invade and subjugate weaker neighbors and works great as long the the weaker neighbors can be crushed quickly. It is hardly unique and was practiced world wide for centuries. The rest of the world has moved into the 21th century and recognized that democracy is the best way to decide these things without violence. Unfortunately, China and Russia are still living in the 19th century and believe that strongmen should get to make the decisions and have them imposed on society by a police force that creates "consensus" by sending dissenters to prison for "disturbing the peace". Edited April 26, 2014 by TimG

[cybercoma]

No relatively.

WWWTT

It's relatively part of China? Relative to what? Canada?

[WWWTT]

The rest of the world has moved into the 21th century and recognized that democracy is the best way to decide these things without violence.

And here's the US sending some of it's observers to oversee those so called "independent democratic" elections!

http://ca.images.search.yahoo.com/images/view;_ylt=A0LEVjPemVtTK2kARJYXFwx.;_ylu=X3oDMTBsa3ZzMnBvBHNlYwNzYwRjb2xvA2JmMQR2dGlkAw--?p=us+drone+strikes&back=http%3A%2F%2Fca.yhs4.search.yahoo.com%2Fyhs%2Fsearch%3Fei%3DUTF-8%26p%3Dpictures%2Bof%2BUS%2Bdrone%2Bstrikes%26type%3Ddnldstr1202%26param1%3DyhsBeacon%26param2%3Dcd%253D2XzuyEtN2Y1L1QzuyByEzzyCyB0AtB0BzzyB0B0EzztD0A0DtN0D0Tzu0SyBtCtCtN1L2XzutBtFtBtFtCyEtFtCtAyBzytN1L1CzutCyD1B1P1R%2526cr%253D1070510881%2526ir%253D15sec%2526elng%253Den%2526elcl%253D%2526a%253Ddnldstr1202%2526f%253D4%2526cat%253Dweb%2526sid%253Dbbc1e0d4fe966d1e5a98c164f284aa48%2526cnc%253Dironsource_tb_intl_search%2526sesid%253D%2526abg%253D%2526ipblock%253D0%2526csr%253D0%2526p%253Dmysearchdial%26hsimp%3Dyhs-fullyhosted_003%26hspart%3Dironsource&w=595&h=335&imgurl=blog.projectionpoint.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2011%2F08%2Fdrone.jpg&size=41KB&name=drone.jpg&rcurl=http%3A%2F%2Fblog.projectionpoint.com%2F%3Fp%3D158&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fblog.projectionpoint.com%2F%3Fp%3D158&type=&no=4&tt=110&oid=15dea98f52be9c94eda6bd98c44f1548&tit=...+whether+us+drone+strikes+in+pakistan+help+or+hinder+the+war+on+terror&sigr=116gq4kis&sigi=11t0j92d1&sign=1093p59vf&sigt=103raln70&sigb=1g2cplc51&fr=yhs-ironsource-fullyhosted_003&hspart=ironsource&hsimp=yhs-fullyhosted_003

WWWTT

[WWWTT]

It's relatively part of China? Relative to what? Canada?

Relative in time.

Like I mentioned before about Hong Kong and Macau. Macau was a Portuguese colony for centuries. Still reverted back to China. Same thing with Taiwan.

WWWTT

[cybercoma]

So then Taiwan is not part of China, but will be part of China? We have a way of showing time with verbs.

[WWWTT]

So then Taiwan is not part of China, but will be part of China? We have a way of showing time with verbs.

Actually there is a lot in the Mandarin language that does not translate into English. There are characteristics that are unique to China.

157 countries in the world recognize that the capital of China is in Beijing, and that Taiwan IS a PART of China.

Now what part do you not understand, when 157 countries, including the USA have made this clear?

WWWTT

[TimG]

Now what part do you not understand, when 157 countries, including the USA have made this clear?

But they have not "made that clear". They may say the words to placate the despots in Beijing but they treat Taiwan as an independent country. For example, holders of Taiwan passports do NOT need a visa to visit Canada but holders of Chinese passports do. This is just one way that the Canadian government implicitly acknowledges that Taiwan is an independent country even if it publicly claims to support a "one china" policy. There are many other examples of "special treatment" given to Taiwan in order to allow it to be an independent country without the formal recognition. http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/visit/visas.asp?country=taiwan1

You keep evading the real issue: the Taiwanese government is the *only* entity that decides what laws have force in Taiwan. Laws made in Beijing have no force. This fact makes Taiwan an independent country. It does not make a difference how many times you ignore this point it is not going to be less true. This makes your attempts at distraction look silly.

Edited April 26, 2014 by TimG

[Rue]

WW the international observers are not just Americans. As we speak CUSO in Canada has an ad on the Charity Village web site seeking observers. The appointment of observers is done through non profit organizations working with the UN. If you are suggesting CUSO is American of course not. Its actually quite left leaning in political opinion or bias if anything,

Look I get it. You are an advocate of the Chinese People's Republic's foreign policy. Go

You feel strongly about it. The problem is we hear in Canada were not brought up with the ideology you feel strongly about.

In fact we let people get elected who want to break away from our nation, give them fat pension checks and generous transfer payments.

In Canada we hug people that do not want to be Canadian and encourage them to retain other identities and remain conflicted as to their loyalties.

As for the US what would you expect it to do? Roll over and allow China to dominate South Korea, Japan and the Philippines? You expect it to look the other way as well in regards to Malaysia and Indonesia or leave its very close ally Australia vulnerable? Not going to happen.

China has a need to show its strength yes. The fact though is you can't conquer Taiwan and force its people to join China. They do not wish to be part of China. Instead of remaining in a state of war with Taiwan, what China should do is recognize it in a way that allows China to save face and not look humiliated which I understand. Taiwan is no threat to China. Never has been. This is an historic dispute not one of genuine fear.

Taiwan is an important player in the world economy. Even if China "took it over" it would not mess with its economy. China as much as it is a huge government controlled economic monopoly needs economic stability in the rest of the world.

China has a loose cannon in North Korea to deal with. It will remain historically distrustful over Taiwan, Russia and Japan. In this area of the world the US is too interrelated to South Korea, Japan, Taiwan, the Philippines and to a lesser extent Indonesia and Australia and Singapore, to allow China to change the status quo.

The US and China will not go to war over this. They are too mutually concerned about North Korea and whatever Putin is up to and as much as they do not trust one another are interlocked because of so much debt the US ahs to China that China needs to collect and would not be able to if it alienates the US..

There is much at stake with an unstable North Korea and Russia let alone unresolved issues with Syria, Iran.

The Chinese economy is extremely vulnerable to European and American market collapses. The last thing it will do is trigger instability that crashes these markets by ratcheting up a conflict over Taiwan.

Edited April 26, 2014 by Rue

[WWWTT]

You keep evading the real issue: the Taiwanese government is the *only* entity that decides what laws have force in Taiwan. Laws made in Beijing have no force. This fact makes Taiwan an independent country. It does not make a difference how many times you ignore this point it is not going to be less true. This makes your attempts at distraction look silly.

I guess the Colorado marijuana laws make Colorado an independent country according to your reasoning then.

WWWTT

[WWWTT]

Look I get it. You are an advocate of the Chinese People's Republic's foreign policy. Go

In Canada we hug people that do not want to be Canadian and encourage them to retain other identities and remain conflicted as to their loyalties.

Hi Rue.

Three things.

First off, your comments are getting to long for me to reply to in this format/forum. Your going to have to break them down into separate comments please, thank you.

The second thing is that I am not an advocate for anyone. This is an issue that many here in the west are not very familiar and I feel it is a good interest we examine other approaches to how a large Canada like size country deals with different sections/areas/populations that have a distinction in relation to how Canada approaches its own internal issues of distinction.

And the last sentence of yours I highlighted, what does it have to do with this thread? Your rambling buddy.

WWWTT

[TimG]

I guess the Colorado marijuana laws make Colorado an independent country according to your reasoning then.

Did you not see the word *only* in my sentence? Do you not understand what it means? US federal laws still apply in Colorado which actually makes it difficult for marijuana growers because they still can be charged with violating those laws not matter the Colorado laws say. Furthermore, the US constitution states explicitly that federal laws are supreme. This is because the US is the sovereign country and junior levels of government must defer to it.

In Taiwan the government is like the US government. It has only authority to pass and enforce laws within its territory.

Edited April 27, 2014 by TimG

[WWWTT]

Did you not see the word *only* in my sentence? Do you not understand what it means? US federal laws still apply in Colorado which actually makes it difficult for marijuana growers because they still can be charged with violating those laws not matter the Colorado laws say. Furthermore, the US constitution states explicitly that federal laws are supreme. This is because the US is the sovereign country and junior levels of government must defer to it.

In Taiwan the government is like the US government. It has complete authority to pass and enforce laws within its territory.

Oh no I saw it, I just didn't give your comment the credit you thought it deserved because the death penalty and other laws change from state to state. So in other words, your cross analogy doesn't hold water.

You are trying to impose/overlay that the same political structure and culture from the west onto China.

And that's not the way to go. Observe and learn their perspective and see if there is anything there that we could use.

WWWTT

[TimG]

Oh no I saw it, I just didn't give your comment the credit you thought it deserved because the death penalty and other laws change from state to state. So in other words, your cross analogy doesn't hold water.

You are being deliberately obtuse. States are junior governments in the US. They have powers which are enumerated in the US constitution that allows them to pass some types of laws. But that does not change the fact that the US government is the supreme authority. If a citizen has an issue with a state law, it is the US supreme court will decide if the law is allowed or not. That is why the US is the sovereign power. The power that the US government has over its territory is the same that Taiwan has over its.

You are trying to impose/overlay that the same political structure and culture from the west onto China.

Facts are facts and don't change because of cultural reference points. Laws passed by Beijing have no force in Taiwan. Laws passed in Taiwan have no force in Beijing. Those facts make Taiwan an independent country no matter how many times you deny it. Edited April 27, 2014 by TimG

[WWWTT]

You are being deliberately obtuse. States are junior governments in the US. They have powers which are enumerated in the US constitution that allows them to pass some types of laws. But that does not change the fact that the US government is the supreme authority. If a citizen has an issue with a state law, it is the US supreme court will decide if the law is allowed or not. That is why the US is the sovereign power. The power that the US government has over its territory is the same that Taiwan has over its.

Facts are facts and don't change because of cultural reference points. Laws passed by Beijing have no force in Taiwan. That fact makes Taiwan an independent country no matter how many times you deny it.

No sorry Autonomous.

WWWTT

[TimG]

No sorry Autonomous.

Nope. Autonomous implies there is some legal framework that binds the autonomous entity with its parent. There is no such legal framework in the case of Taiwan. If your definition had any merit China could claim the US is an autonomous province of China which is obviously absurd - just like your refusal to acknowledge that Taiwan is an independent country. Edited April 27, 2014 by TimG

[WWWTT]

Nope. Autonomous implies there is some legal framework that binds the autonomous entity with its parent. There is no such legal framework in the case of Taiwan. If your definition had any merit China could claim the US is an autonomous province of China which is obviously absurd - just like your refusal to acknowledge that Taiwan is an independent country.

And what's your point then?

You're constantly trying to prove that Taiwan is an independent country, so freekin what buddy?

That does not in any way prove that Taiwan is NOT part of China, as recognized by the US and a total of 157 countries!

But somehow you think that if you convince me, than the US is going to change it's political relationship with Beijing????? That's just freekin spun buddy?

Let me ask you something TimG, have you ever thought you were Napoleon at one time in your life?

WWWTT

[TimG]

And what's your point then?

You are the one that started the thread titled "Taiwan is part of China".

Why is it so important to you to hold onto an idea that is so obviously false??

That does not in any way prove that Taiwan is NOT part of China, as recognized by the US and a total of 157 countries!

I already made it clear that international recognition is not relevant to the definition of a sovereign state. What matters is the ability to exercise control over a territory and Taiwan does exercise exclusive control over its territory. That makes Taiwan a country that is NOT part of China not matter how many times you say otherwise.

The real question I have is why it is so important for the depots in Beijing to get the world to pretend that Taiwan is not an independent country even if this results in the world snickering at Beijing for its childishness? Why is it so important to you?

Edited April 27, 2014 by TimG

[WWWTT]

You are the one that started the thread titled "Taiwan is part of China".

Why is it so important to you to hold onto an idea that is so obviously false??

I already made it clear that international recognition is not relevant to the definition of a sovereign state. What matters is the ability to exercise control over a territory and Taiwan does exercise exclusive control over its territory. That makes Taiwan a country that is NOT part of China not matter how many times you say otherwise.

The real question I have is why it is so important for the depots in Beijing to get the world to pretend that Taiwan is not an independent country even if this results in the world snickering at Beijing for its childishness? Why is it so important to you?

Hey buddy take my advise, don't go to China OK!

I'm going to bed now so have the last word.

Good night TimG.

WWWTT

[jbg]

Macau and Hong Kong for many centuries were politically separated, but eventually re united because the people in those regions always believed they were Chinese first!

Taiwan will eventually politically rejoin with the rest of their family.

WWWTT

I'm not clear that the Taiwanese are volunteering for tyranny, forced abortions, etc.

[WWWTT]

I'm not clear that the Taiwanese are volunteering for tyranny, forced abortions, etc.

Forced abortions?

Do you have a link to back that up.

My wife and I know of several couples who have more than one child in China. When I was last there, I met an couple who had around 4 children, but they were all adopted.

WWWTT

[jbg]

Forced abortions?

Do you have a link to back that up.

The now-repealed "one child" policy.

[Bonam]

This thread is hilarious.