11 year old transgender

[cybercoma]

Then why are sex change operations necessary?

If gender was not about biology then there would be no need for the self mutilation.

You are are simply trying to rationalize an inconsistent set of beliefs.

I'm telling you what professionals in medical, psychological, and academic communities commonly hold to be true. Whether you want to accept that or not is your problem. But it's quite obvious any discussion with you is pointless when you use phrases like "self mutilation," "harmful medical interventions" or "pumping oneself full of hormones," ignoring the harm of forcing someone to live in a body they don't psychologically identify with. You're have absolutely no empathy or understanding of what transgendered people go through and you're quite obviously unwilling to find the imagination to put yourself into their shoes. Thankfully, the opinion of TimG of MLW is utterly irrelevant when it comes to professional treatment. The sad part is that it is relevant when your opinion is held by most of society and causes undue harm and mental anguish for transgendered people. But keep fighting for what you believe is "right" because that's what's important here. Edited September 4, 2013 by cybercoma

[Black Dog]

I see you are repudiating cybercoma's claim that gender and biology are not linked. If there was no link there would be no need for self mutilation.

cybercoma never said that. the actual quote was:

Sex is biological, gender is not.

That is accurate. Gender is a social construct.

Like I said: plenty of people have body image problems. Some times these image problems are pathological and require treatment. I see no difference between treating people for anorexia and treating people with gender identity issues. I am assuming you consider it acceptable to say that people with anorexia need treatment so it is puzzling why you would say so treatment is required simply because some says they need to mutilate themselves in order to make their body match their self defined gender (as opposed to their self defined ideal body weight).

Yes because sex reassignment surgery is a simple procedure people can undertake on a simple whim. Christ.

Just another way of making my point: they are obsessing about how other people see them. A healthy response would deal with this obsession instead of trying to normalize it.

That's a gross simplification, but whatever. I'll let you go back to praying away the gay or whatever.

Edited September 4, 2013 by Black Dog

[cybercoma]

You seem to be intent on missing the point. I said that there are cases where people are biologically ambiguous and medical interventions are justified. But for people who have no biological basis I see the desire for self mutilation as a psychological problem like anorexia.

Why are medical interventions justified then? Why can't people live happy comfortable lives being intersexed?

Oh right because there will always be people like you that think they need to be "fixed."

[cybercoma]

cybercoma never said that

Thank you for pointing that out.

[cybercoma]

You know how you "treat" people with gender identity "issues", Tim? You let them be who they want to be without judging them or oppressing them with the stigma of being mentally defective or some kind of freak. That's how you "treat" them. You treat them with dignity and respect, allowing them to be themselves without facing the kind of judgmental BS that you're preaching here.

[cybercoma]

Dammit. I said I wasn't going to get involved.

[Black Dog]

Why are medical interventions justified then? Why can't people live happy comfortable lives being intersexed?

Oh right because there will always be people like you that think they need to be "fixed."

Yeah, I'm not sure why people with ambiguous genitalia can't just learn to live with what they have and deal with it instead of mutilating themselves. If God had wanted them to be one sex or the other, he wouldn't have given them ambiguous genitalia.

[TimG]

You know how you "treat" people with gender identity "issues"

How do you treat people with anorexia? You need to help them build a self image that accepts their body for way it is. You don't tell them that starving themselves is acceptable thing to do because they are a thin person trapped in the body of a fat person.

You let them be who they want to be without judging them or oppressing them with the stigma of being mentally defective or some kind of freak.

So please tell me. Is this woman a normal person that should be accepted for her life choices or is does she have unresolved psychological problems?

One can have empathy for people struggling with mental illness without becoming a participant in their illness.

Edited September 4, 2013 by TimG

[cybercoma]

Yeah, I'm not sure why people with ambiguous genitalia can't just learn to live with what they have and deal with it instead of mutilating themselves. If God had wanted them to be one sex or the other, he wouldn't have given them ambiguous genitalia.

There's a lot of issues around people that are intersexed. The decision often falls upon the parents to choose the child's sex well before the child demonstrates a gender preference and it sometimes occurs that the parents make the wrong choice, forcing their child to live in the body of a sex that they don't identify with. Although its occurrence relatively rare, intersex is not necessarily a problem that needs to be "fixed" either. There is rarely a pressing medical need to put the child under a knife and choose their sex for them. But in the interest of making parents comfortable and social pressure, the kid is "fixed" early in life.

There's a whole body of literature on the ethics of "fixing" intersexed children with ambiguous genitalia. The problem lies with informed consent. The person undergoing the treatment is too young to give informed consent and the decision is made for them by their parents, a decision which as I mentioned is hardly ever medically necessary for the child's health or survival.

There's a good academic article on it here. From one of the quotes in the article:

The patients I was encountering were not those whose surgeries resulted from life-threatening or seriously debilitating medical conditions. Rather, they had such diagnoses as “micropenis” or “clitoral hypertrophy.” These were patients who were told-when they were told anything-that they had vaginoplasties or clitorectomies because of the serious psychological consequences they would have suffered if surgery had not been done. But the surgeries had been performed-and they were reporting longstanding psychological distress. They were certain that they would rather have had the “abnormal” genitals they [had] had than the “mutilated” genitals they were given. They were hostile and often vengeful towards the professionals who had been responsible for their care and sometimes, by transference, towards me. They were furious that they had been lied to.

And from the conclusions...

It is not at all clear if all or even most of the intersex surgeries done today involve what would legally and ethically constitute informed consent. It appears that few intersexuals or their parents are educated, before they give consent, about the anatomically strict psychosocial model employed.

Anyway, the point being that TimG and society takes it for granted that we ought to be doing this kind of surgery on individuals against their will or without their fully informed consent. Yet when someone knows that something's not right and they have a serious gender identity issue, they're criticized for wanting to undergo surgery or hormone therapy themselves of their own free will. It's not only hypocritical, but it's arrogant in that it says to someone that they shouldn't have a say in their own life and their own body. It doesn't make a hell of a lot of sense.

[Black Dog]

How do you treat people with anorexia? You need to help them build a self image that accepts their body for way it is. You don't tell them that starving themselves is acceptable thing to do because they are a thin person trapped in the body of a fat person.

If you don't grasp the difference between self-harm practices and professionally supervised medical procedures, I feel sorry for your dentist.

So please tell me. Is this woman a normal person that should be accepted for her life choices or is does she have unresolved psychological problems?

I don't know. Do you? I do know Korea is a hotbed of plastic surgery, and this case would seem to speak to the extremes some people would go to fit in with a socially constructed ideal, just as some people starve themselves to fit in with a social ideal of beauty. How that relates to people who reject social norms and expectations by choosing a different gender identity than that which has been assigned to them on the basis of their biological sex is unclear.

[cybercoma]

How do you treat people with anorexia? You need to help them build a self image that accepts their body for way it is. You don't tell them that starving themselves is acceptable thing to do because they are a thin person trapped in the body of a fat person.

Who cares? This isn't about anorexia.

So please tell me. Is this woman a normal person that should be accepted for her life choices or is does she have unresolved psychological problems?

Who cares about this either? It also has nothing to do with this thread.

One can have empathy for people struggling with mental illness without becoming a participant in their illness.

Is that why Gender Identity Disorder was removed from the DSM?

[TimG]

Anyway, the point being that TimG and society takes it for granted that we ought to be doing this kind of surgery on individuals against their will or without their fully informed consent.

When have I said this? My first comments in this thread were:

Some people are born with ambiguous genitalia.

These people need to be able to choose their gender.

If it was chosen for them at birth then it make sense that they would repudiate that choice later in life.

My argument is against the blanket assumption that people without a biological reason to question their gender identity are not suffering from mental illnesses that need treatment.

[cybercoma]

People aren't questioning their gender identity. Now you're just throwing around phrases that you've seen posted here that you seemingly don't even understand. Since it obviously needs to be posted again, here's the original image (for simplicity sake) of the "Genderbread Person" for your edification. There's a second version which more accurately depicts the concepts, but I can't even bother getting into that discussion until people understand the terms correctly.

[Black Dog]

My argument is against the blanket assumption that people without a biological reason to question their gender identity are not suffering from mental illnesses that need treatment.

And your counter argument is the blanket assumption that people without a biological reason to question their gender identity are suffering from mental illnesses and need treatment.

SMH, as the kids say.

[cybercoma]

The second one, for those who have a grasp on the terms, is linked HERE due to its size. This more accurately reflects the way people experience these concepts.

[TimG]

Who cares? This isn't about anorexia.

It is about people who want to mutilate themselves in order to make their body conform to what they believe their body should look like. There is no difference between anorexia and gender identity disorders on that level.

Is that why Gender Identity Disorder was removed from the DSM?

A strange argument given the politically sensitive nature of the topic. I don't read much into this.

If you read the advantages and disadvantages section you will see that some people want it to remain a disorder because it means insurance companies pay for sex change operations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity_disorder

Of course, if you want to argue that that people with GID are perfectly fine then there is no need for medical interventions.

[cybercoma]

It is about people who want to mutilate themselves in order to make their body conform to what they believe their body should look like.

Tell me more about how you hate plastic surgeons, breast implants, and nose jobs, in a word, Hollywood.

There is no difference between anorexia and gender identity disorders on that level.

Because you say so? There are people with gender identity issues that don't have surgery, but live in drag.

A strange argument given the politically sensitive nature of the topic. I don't read much into this.

Oh I see. Because it destroys your argument that it's a mental health issue, it must be for political reasons that medical professionals no longer consider it a disorder. Why do I even bother responding to you again?

[TimG]

Tell me more about how you hate plastic surgeons, breast implants, and nose jobs, in a word, Hollywood.

I think all such surgeries unless they have some medical purpose are self mutilation and people who retort to them have unresolved body image issues. The one caveat is if one is in a job that requires one to look young to stay employed then such surgeries can have practical utility.

Because you say so? There are people with gender identity issues that don't have surgery, but live in drag.

Fine with me. The issue and only issue is the suggestion that radical medical interventions are necessary to deal with a what is purely a mental health issue.

Oh I see. Because it destroys your argument that it's a mental health issue, it must be for political reasons that medical professionals no longer consider it a disorder.

You are trying to make the claim because some body makes a decision that everyone qualified mental health provider must agree with it. I don't make that assumption when dealing with politically sensitive issues because politics invariably trumps science. It makes no difference to me if you want to deny the world we live and pretend that unbiased non-political professional bodies exist. Edited September 4, 2013 by TimG

[Black Dog]

I think all such surgeries unless they have some medical purpose are self mutilation and people who retort to them have unresolved body image issues. The one caveat is if one is in a job that requires one to look young to stay employed then such surgeries can have practical utility.

This has gotta be a troll job.

[cybercoma]

This has gotta be a troll job.

Which is why I've decided to stop responding to Tim. Pornstar gets breast implants or labiaplasty, no big deal. Someone living a tortured existence as a man when they identify as a woman takes hormones or has surgery, self-mutiliation and sick mental defect.

[BC_chick]

I had a feeling the discussion would go this way, that's why I was hesitant posting the article. Given the child's age, I really wanted to discuss the role of the parents in all this, but I should have known better.

Loved the gingerbread person, btw. It really does come down to teaching the basics before having a discussion, doesn't it?

[cybercoma]

Loved the gingerbread person, btw. It really does come down to teaching the basics before having a discussion, doesn't it?

It really does and sadly I've posted that damn thing no less than half a dozen times on this forum, but people continue to misunderstand the concepts and sometimes completely deny the facts about gender as generally accepted by medical and psychological professionals.

[TimG]

Someone living a tortured existence as a man when they identify as a woman takes hormones or has surgery, self-mutilation and sick mental defect.

The OP is about a child being given drugs because she thinks he is a boy. This is wrong. Supportive parents should be helping her accept her body for the way it is. Once the child is 18 and this wants breast implants, sex change surgery, tattoos, body piercing or whatever then that is her choice.

But the message to kids should be: you need to accept your body for what it is. What is wrong are these endless attempts to treat self mutilation as a necessary measure to deal with what is a mental health issue.

Edited September 4, 2013 by TimG

[TimG]

Loved the gingerbread person, btw. It really does come down to teaching the basics before having a discussion, doesn't it?

What is ironic is how cybercoma ignores it in his own arguments. If gender identity was really independent of biological sex then there would be no discussion of self mutilation as a way to make ones biological sex match ones gender identity. The fact that he argues that self mutilation is necessary suggests he believes that the 'gender identity' and the 'biological sex' much match and if they don't then it is a defect that must be corrected. What is also missing in his logic is why gender identity trumps biological sex when there is a mismatch. If one says that gender identity must match the biological sex then why is wrong to say the gender identity should change rather than the biological sex? Edited September 4, 2013 by TimG

[BC_chick]

The OP is about a child being given drugs because she thinks he is a boy. This is wrong. Supportive parents should be helping her accept her body for the way it is. Once the child is 18 and this wants breast implants, sex change surgery, tattoos, body piercing or whatever then that is her choice.

But the message to kids should be: you need to accept your body for what it is. What is wrong are these endless attempts to treat self mutilation as a necessary measure to deal with what is a mental health issue.

Once again you are misrepresenting what is happening here. Nothing is going to happen before the child is 18.

As for self-mutilation to deal with a mental health issue... as it's been pointed out to you, it's NOT a mental-health issue. You keep saying it is, doctors and psychologists say it isn't. Your opinion vs. WHO... it's not a really a tough call there.