maplesyrup Posted September 16, 2004 Report Share Posted September 16, 2004 I was listening to the radio this morning, and this person was describing a situation where her brother committed suicide, and because he took his own life, his family was not allowed to use the regular death process in their church. What is this all about? Obviously this person's brother was mentally ill, was sick. So, why should he and his family be punished. Weird! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idealisttotheend Posted September 16, 2004 Report Share Posted September 16, 2004 Suicide was illegal until the mid 70s. Religious prohibitions on are for the same reason it was illegal, it is meant to be discouraged for the good of society. I agree with you that a more modern approach is to see people who commit suicide as sick people and the net effect of religious condemnation of suicide (who go to Hell) can be a second blow to families affected by it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
August1991 Posted September 16, 2004 Report Share Posted September 16, 2004 One wonders where the Christian injunction against suicide came from and why it was not followed by Islam. Religion aside, I suspect most surviving family members (in Christian culture) are still ashamed. The Quebec writer Hubert Aquin killed himself and his family has been open about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maplesyrup Posted September 17, 2004 Author Report Share Posted September 17, 2004 One wonders where the Christian injunction against suicide came from and why it was not followed by Islam.Religion aside, I suspect most surviving family members (in Christian culture) are still ashamed. The Quebec writer Hubert Aquin killed himself and his family has been open about it. Maybe Islam is a superior religion. I agree about the shame part but my goodness, families that experience a suicide need support not rejection. This is a very good example why I have serious issues with most organized religion. Quakers and Unitarians get my vote. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maplesyrup Posted September 17, 2004 Author Report Share Posted September 17, 2004 August1991......thanks for bringing Aquin to our attention. I had forgotten about him but now I remember bits and pieces. Attempting to explain a suicide Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Terrible Sweal Posted September 17, 2004 Report Share Posted September 17, 2004 One wonders where the Christian injunction against suicide came from and why it was not followed by Islam. Suicide is against the rules in Islam, but it is distinguished from martyrdom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theloniusfleabag Posted September 17, 2004 Report Share Posted September 17, 2004 Dear August1991, The Terrible Sweal is quite correct. Suicide is against the rules in Islam, but it is distinguished from martyrdom.It is the west that calls them 'suicide bombers' or whatever, the 'Islamists' call the same action a 'marrtyrdom action'. The difference is that the individual dies while in 'combat', rather than just snuffing oneself out of despair. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slavik44 Posted September 17, 2004 Report Share Posted September 17, 2004 Maybe Islam is a superior religion. I agree about the shame part but my goodness, families that experience a suicide need support not rejection. This is a very good example why I have serious issues with most organized religion. Quakers and Unitarians get my vote. MS, This is an extroadinary case, that you cannot use to label all christians, or all religions by simply because it suits your purpose. "For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God. I think it is far to say that some people do become overzealous, but if the law is one word (LOVE) people need to go back to that oen word, instead of creating elaborate rules to protect the one law, and then elaborate rules to protect the other rules and so on and so forth you do run into problems, with a select few doing the above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAC Posted September 17, 2004 Report Share Posted September 17, 2004 The Bible teaches plainly that repentance (turning away from your sin to God) is required "for" salvation. Jesus said, "unless you repent, you will all ... perish" (Luke 13:3,5). Some Christians think that means that if you commit suicide, you die in the act of a sin, and you never have the chance to repent of it. Therefore, they conclude, you are lost forever. Though I have not examined this directly, I assume that is the reasoning of the Roman Catholic Church, which will not allow the suicide to be buried in what they consider sanctified ground. For them, being buried in that sanctified ground is a statement that you are at least qualified for purgatory, and eventually heaven. The whole approach is a misconception of the Bible. It turns repentance into a good deed by which you qualify for salvation, and fails to reckon with the difference between the initial repentance by which a person turns in principle from all sin to Christ, and the day by day expressions of it in turning back to Christ from whatever particular sins have been committed in that day. The first, the principial turning from sin to Christ, is normally necessary for salvation, but even that is not a work of merit. Ephesians 2:8-9 tell us, "by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast." If repentance gave you credit with God, it would be something to boast about. I could say that I'm better than others because I repented. But God rejects that. My repentance is simply part of the expression of my turning to God confessing that I am sinful, weak, and need his help. To echo in slightly different form what Slavik44 wrote, God is a god of great mercy. He reaches out to the weak and helps them. Otherwise we would all be lost. If a murderer like Moses, David or Paul can be saved, then someone who falls into such despair that he commits suicide is not barred from being welcomed by God. It's wrong, and Christians more than any others should understand that and know better, but that doesn't mean that Christians may not fall into such despair that they commit suicide. The situation MS described in the beginning is an aberration, but one that is unfortunately common. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
August1991 Posted September 18, 2004 Report Share Posted September 18, 2004 The whole approach is a misconception of the Bible.What a business! You guys are the original lawyers. Always finding a new way to interpret, to claim the interpretation of another is wrong and ultimately to take the place of a God you claim exists by putting words into His mouth.If God really exists, why in the Devil's name would He have sent His message in such a convoluted fashion so that we mortals would argue endlessly about it? Does He have a Holy sense of humour? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maplesyrup Posted September 18, 2004 Author Report Share Posted September 18, 2004 The situation MS described in the beginning is an aberration, but one that is unfortunately common Well, if it is an aberration, why is it allowed to continue? Why is there no attempt made (my assumption) to correct this oversight? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daniel Posted September 22, 2004 Report Share Posted September 22, 2004 ...If a murderer like Moses, David or Paul ... Huh? Was there something in those Bible stories that I missed? Please explain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAC Posted September 24, 2004 Report Share Posted September 24, 2004 (DAC @ Sep 17 2004, 04:20 PM)...If a murderer like Moses, David or Paul ... Huh? Was there something in those Bible stories that I missed? Please explain. Moses, seeing an Egyptian beating a Hebrew slave, murdered him (Exodus 2:12-13). As a consequence he had to flee Egypt, and lived as a shepherd until God called him through the burning bush to bring Israel out of Egypt. David arranged to have Uriah the Hittite killed, after committing adultery with Uriah’s wife, Bathsheba. To his chagrin she became pregnant, and he found that the only way to cover up his sin was to kill Uriah and marry Bathsheba. (2 Samuel 11) Paul was accessory to the murder of Stephen and actively engaged in attacking the early church. While it is not explicit, it appears that this included death for some of them. (Acts 7:58-8:3; 9:1-2) Each of them found forgiveness, and healing with God, and were put into or kept in places of leadership in his church. That’s pretty good grounds for thinking a suicide might also find such forgiveness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAC Posted September 24, 2004 Report Share Posted September 24, 2004 What a business! You guys are the original lawyers. Always finding a new way to interpret, to claim the interpretation of another is wrong and ultimately to take the place of a God you claim exists by putting words into His mouth.If God really exists, why in the Devil's name would He have sent His message in such a convoluted fashion so that we mortals would argue endlessly about it? Does He have a Holy sense of humour? God has not spelled out why he gave us the kind of book he did, but I think that one reason was precisely because we mortals are so foolish. If he had given us a detailed theological textbook, a series of single premises in logical order, it would either be too difficult for many people to grasp (as well as deadly boring to most), or it would be so simplistic that it would not cover the ground that needed covering. What we received is a book that is very difficult to mistranslate, for a start. A particular teaching does not just come in one proposition, for example, “You shall not steal”. That could easily be changed by a translator to “You shall not steal from the poor” (satisfying many leftists), and the person depending on the translation would never know anything was missed. But God arranged that his truths appear in a variety of forms, written by a variety of writers. The result is that the only way to remove some teaching from a translation is to rewrite so extensively that the claim to be a translation is simply gone. The Jehovah’s Witnesses have tried to translate the Bible in a way that supports their contention that Jesus is not God. But I can take a Jehovah’s Witness Bible, (The New World Translation and prove to any unbiassed person from it that the Bible teaches that Jesus is God. The worst translations I know of, if you read the whole Bible, will not lead you seriously astray. As well, we have a book written in common language, full of stories and illustrations. It is designed so that the simplest reader can grasp the essential points. Yet it has depths enough to keep the deepest thinker occupied for a lifetime. Can people distort it? Of course. I just received an e-mail from someone who took the English words, “Holy Bible”, assigned a numerical value to each character, multiplied them together, and found in them results which matched the moon’s diameter and the 360 degrees the earth goes through in its orbit around the sun. He concluded that the Bible is actually an ancient treatise on astronomy. Those who want to twist it can draw anything out of just about any writing. The Bible, because it is complex, provides more opportunities. But at the same time it provides more checks, more challenges. The twister is likely to come up quickly against something that doesn’t fit what he is trying to do. The same checks work to correct those who simply misunderstand - as I have found many times in my life, when I’ve seen something that challenges a view I had. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzizlife Posted October 3, 2004 Report Share Posted October 3, 2004 Going back to the original topic posted... I would like to point out that not all people who commit sucide are mentally ill. Certainly, many be suffering from illnesses such as depression, but I know people who have commited suicide who were not in any way mentally ill. Furthermore, I don't think that it's right to say that someone who commits suicide will go to hell (if there is such a place). Why should someone go to hell because of the way he or she dies? If that person lived a truly good life, they should not be punished. I also respect people who do live their lives based on fear of what will happen after death. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simoncapital Posted October 6, 2004 Report Share Posted October 6, 2004 I think a church has the right to reject someone for committing suicide. I don't think its right but I believe that every religion is entitled to carry out any customs it wants that don't physically harm anyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neal.F. Posted October 8, 2004 Report Share Posted October 8, 2004 By legalizing euthanasia, you are declaring open season on the weak, non-productive and infirm. There are many of us who suspect that by marketing "assisted suicide/mercy killing" as a compassionate humaitarian gesture the powers that be are trying to facilitate ridding society of those whose usefulness has expired, from a utilitarian standpoint. One less old age/disability pension to pay..... This line is being bought by others, namely those who help support such people financially, and who would like to rid themselves of their "burden". Let's look at the Terri Schiavo case in Florida. Here we have a case where a family is prepared to assume all costs to care for their daughter, yet theoir son in law, who has NOTHING to gain financially is fighting to have her feeding tube removed so she starves to death. We have Cathoolic Jeb Bush the Gov. of Florida fighting for the judeo-christian life ethic, while the judges side with the son in law, I believe with a view to facilitating futire cases. I think Robert Latimer should have been charged with Murder One and thrown away. The weak are a gift from God, each with theirown talents, and I might argue, some were placed here to try to help bring out the best in us. No to euthanasia of any kind for any reason. Those who participate in it shouldbe proisecuted to the fullest. Man has no business playing God. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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