Pakistan Progresses as Sunnis Win Struggle and Unite Country

[jbg]

Many in the West have a a culturally biased way of measuring progress. Progress is measured in development of technology, construction of structures, and production of agricultural and mineral commodities. Other cultures measure progress in terms of success in combat. The most honorable occupation for male children is as fighters. A child who becomes a successful fighter is the "Steven Jobs" of Pakistan, a more useful member of society, relatively, than Steven Jobs himself is here.

Innovation is measured differently than in the West. Original ways of killing people properly form the measure of accomplishment in these societies. On the first page of the New York Times there was a recent article (link to article, excerpts below) detailing the glorious accomplishments of Sunni fighters in Pakistan. It is very unfair to apply our Western standards to other societies. What we consider sickening, they may well consider quite decent.

See below:

Pakistan Reels With Violence Against Shiites

Declan Walsh/The New York Times

Many members of the Hazara Shiite community killed by Sunni extremists are buried in a graveyard in Quetta, Pakistan.

For at least a year now, Sunni extremist gunmen have been methodically attacking members of the Hazara community, a Persian-speaking Shiite minority that emigrated here from Afghanistan more than a century ago. The killers strike with chilling abandon, apparently fearless of the law: shop owners are gunned down at their counters, students as they play cricket, pilgrims dragged from buses and executed on the roadside.

¶

The latest victim, a mechanic named Hussain Ali, was killed Wednesday, shot inside his workshop. He joined the list of more than 100 Hazaras who have been killed this year, many in broad daylight. As often as not, the gunmen do not even bother to cover their faces.

¶

The bloodshed is part of a wider surge in sectarian violence across Pakistan in which at least 375 Shiites have died this year — the worst toll since the 1990s, human rights workers say. But as their graveyard fills, Hazaras say the mystery lies not in the identity of their attackers, who are well known, but in a simpler question: why the Pakistani state cannot — or will not — protect them.

*****************************************

The murders in Quetta, for instance, involve remarkably little mystery. By wide consensus, the gunmen are based in Mastung, a dusty agricultural village 18 miles to the south that is the bustling local hub of Lashkar-e-Jhangvi, the country’s most notorious sectarian militant group.

¶

Like so many Pakistani groups that combine guns with zealotry, Lashkar-e-Jhangvi thrives in a wink-and-nod netherworld: it is officially banned, but its leader, Malik Ishaq, was released from jail last year amid showers of rose petals thrown by supporters. Now Mr. Malik lives openly in southern Punjab Province, protected by armed men who loiter outside his door, allowing him to deliver hate-laced statements to visitors. Shiites are “the greatest infidels on earth,” he told a Reuters reporter last month.

(snip, end of excerpt)

Edited December 8, 2012 by jbg

[Michael Hardner]

Innovation is measured differently than in the West. Original ways of killing people properly form the measure of accomplishment in these societies.

"is measured" by whom ? How are you such an expert in this culture, or if not you then who is saying these things ?

I don't see anything honourable in this way of measuring progress do you ? If you agree with me, why post this ? Having us all join hands and chant in agreeable condemnation is a waste of bandwidth in my opinion.

[jbg]

I don't see anything honourable in this way of measuring progress do you ? If you agree with me, why post this ? Having us all join hands and chant in agreeable condemnation is a waste of bandwidth in my opinion.

You and I disagree. Honor is very important in these cultures.

[Michael Hardner]

You and I disagree. Honor is very important in these cultures.

It's not that I disagree, it's that I question your ability to speak authoritatively on Pakistani culture.

[jbg]

It's not that I disagree, it's that I question your ability to speak authoritatively on Pakistani culture.

I treasure and value all cultures.

[Michael Hardner]

It's not that I disagree, it's that I question your ability to speak authoritatively on Pakistani culture.

You forgot to add "except this one."

[jbg]

You forgot to add "except this one."

Did you mean to quote yourself? Or perhaps my post, "I treasure and value all cultures" (link)?

[Michael Hardner]

Did you mean to quote yourself? Or perhaps my post, "I treasure and value all cultures" (link)?

Yes. I posted myself in the foot.

[Argus]

I don't mind admitting that as far as I'm concerned, my cultural values are the right ones, and everyone elses are wrong. That may be chauvinist, or ethnocentric or whatever else, but I really don't care. I have no difficulty at all condemning other cultures, especially the one above.

[Michael Hardner]

I don't mind admitting that as far as I'm concerned, my cultural values are the right ones, and everyone elses are wrong.

Pretty much everybody thinks this, or they would change their values.

That may be chauvinist, or ethnocentric or whatever else, but I really don't care. I have no difficulty at all condemning other cultures, especially the one above.

Condemning how ? If I ask you your opinion, of course you should give it. But why start a post on here condemning another culture ? Do we expect some arbiter of Pakistani culture to come on here and defend it ?

If you take out the religious/cultural/national context here you could post about any trait that other groups possess. We have seen this with Canadians posting anti-American views, mostly irrational ones IMO, on this board to no good end. How about posting videos of bad drivers ? To my mind, such threads lend themselves to pointing and gawking, and furthermore they ignore the fact that there are real flaws in all cultures including our own. Why aren't we posting them ?

There's no rule against such things per se, but I personally find it smug, arrogant, and anti-discussion to post slags on other groups - whether or not they're valid.

[Michael Hardner]

It's striking me now that I haven't realized how personal forums and blogs are. They're personal thoughts pushed out for others to read and fight over. Private thoughts about how other groups bother us are indeed valid - to the person posting it. To me, it's like mental body odour that I can't get away from.

[jbg]

.Do we expect some arbiter of Pakistani culture to come on here and defend it ? .

In now multicultural Canada where anything (except productive majority cultures) goes why not?

[Guest Peeves]

" It is very unfair to apply our Western standards to other societies. What we consider sickening, they may well consider quite decent."

That's a fallacy. We should certainly be comparing other societies to our standards in every context because the differences either matter or they don't.

I judge others by standards I believe are civilized and humane. I condemn those acts or behaviors that don't meet a civilized standard as either barbaric or uncivilized. We must have our standards and, we must expect other regimes to meet our standards or be condemned for what they do.

Edited December 10, 2012 by Peeves