There is no border-there is no province- just illegal tobacco sales

[Smallc]

In Manitoba, the case is pretty clear. The shop in question is selling off of reserve. That is provincial jurisdiction. On reserve, only status people qualify for tax exempt status. That means that the reserve business should either collect taxes from the non status customers, or refuse to sell. The onus is on the seller to collect the appropriate taxes from the customer.

[guyser]

There is nothing illegal about native tobacco operations on reserve in Ontario.

If they are smuggled smokes, and there are plenty of those, then yes, there is something illegal about the operations.

[jacee]

In Manitoba, the case is pretty clear. The shop in question is selling off of reserve. That is provincial jurisdiction. On reserve, only status people qualify for tax exempt status. That means that the reserve business should either collect taxes from the non status customers, or refuse to sell. The onus is on the seller to collect the appropriate taxes from the customer.

They have no obligation to police or collect the province's taxes.

And yes you have an off-reserve challenge in Manitoba ... because the Dakota have no reserve.

The native tobacco industry supports many families who might otherwise not be able to find employment.

It reduces dependency on government benefits.

[jacee]

If they are smuggled smokes, and there are plenty of those, then yes, there is something illegal about the operations.

Depends who's handling them and where.

Native, on or between reserves is legal.

Non native is illegal ... "smuggled".

[Smallc]

They have no obligation to police or collect the province's taxes.

And yet, they do it here for the most part, whether we're talking gas or cigarettes. Funny that. Reserves are not another planet. Federal laws apply, and provincial laws apply in certain situations.

[Smallc]

Depends who's handling them and where.

There are federal statuettes related to tobacco. Cigarettes legally sold in Canada must bear the proper stamps.

[jacee]

And yet, they do it here for the most part, whether we're talking gas or cigarettes. Funny that. Reserves are not another planet. Federal laws apply, and provincial laws apply in certain situations.

Not here.

[Wild Bill]

Not here.

Yes HERE! The fact that we have had a spineless McGuinty government does not change the laws! You are pulling things out of your butt again!

The principle is quite simple. It is true that natives do not pay such taxes. It is true that they are under no obligation to collect such taxes EXCEPT when they are selling into the non-native market!

If you sell into the non-native market then you are the same as any other business. Exemptions only apply to the natives themselves, when dealing among themselves and when buying from the non-native marketplace for THEMSELVES!

Natives were never given the right to a tax free advantage in mainstream Canadian business!

If your reasoning were correct, natives could become the Bahamas of Canada overnight and in 2 weeks own the country!

They can't and they don't!

We give natives a huge amount of money. Sovereignty and rights work both ways. Your logic is a "heads I win, tails you lose" proposition in favour of the natives. Things just don't work that way. If natives push things too far then they may find that some cheques will no longer be sent their way.

Edited October 25, 2012 by Wild Bill

[guyser]

Not here.

Yes here,

Illegally smuggled smokes are just that, illegal.

[jacee]

Yes here,

Illegally smuggled smokes are just that, illegal.

They're only "smuggled" if they're handled by non natives.

[jacee]

Yes HERE! The fact that we have had a spineless McGuinty government does not change the laws! You are pulling things out of your butt again!

The principle is quite simple. It is true that natives do not pay such taxes. It is true that they are under no obligation to collect such taxes EXCEPT when they are selling into the non-native market!

If you sell into the non-native market then you are the same as any other business. Exemptions only apply to the natives themselves, when dealing among themselves and when buying from the non-native marketplace for THEMSELVES!

Natives were never given the right to a tax free advantage in mainstream Canadian business!

If your reasoning were correct, natives could become the Bahamas of Canada overnight and in 2 weeks own the country!

They can't and they don't!

We give natives a huge amount of money. Sovereignty and rights work both ways. Your logic is a "heads I win, tails you lose" proposition in favour of the natives. Things just don't work that way. If natives push things too far then they may find that some cheques will no longer be sent their way.

Then we'll be in contempt of court.

[Wild Bill]

Then we'll be in contempt of court.

Would you be so kind as to back that up with some cites or something? Who's court? Under what statute?

In other words, where does it say that natives are allowed to sell to non-natives without collecting any taxes?

Forgive me if I just don't take your word for it. You do not have a good reputation for accuracy.

[jacee]

Would you be so kind as to back that up with some cites or something? Who's court? Under what statute?

In other words, where does it say that natives are allowed to sell to non-natives without collecting any taxes?

Forgive me if I just don't take your word for it. You do not have a good reputation for accuracy.

You threatened:

If natives push things too far then they may find that some cheques will no longer be sent their way.

I pointed out that 'we' have lawful obligations to fund First Nations that can't just be ignored without facing the courts.

[Wild Bill]

You threatened:

I pointed out that 'we' have lawful obligations to fund First Nations that can't just be ignored without facing the courts.

Ah, mea culpa. I misunderstood you. You did not mean court action over natives selling to non-natives without collecting taxes. You meant Canada having legal obligations to send cheques.

It still leaves the question, however, as to why are natives somehow above the law by selling smokes to non-natives without collecting taxes. Why are they not facing the courts? You seemed to imply they were exempt. My position is that McGuinty's government was gutless and sacrificed the rule of Law for political expediency.

[jacee]

Ah, mea culpa. I misunderstood you. You did not mean court action over natives selling to non-natives without collecting taxes. You meant Canada having legal obligations to send cheques.

It still leaves the question, however, as to why are natives somehow above the law by selling smokes to non-natives without collecting taxes. Why are they not facing the courts? You seemed to imply they were exempt. My position is that McGuinty's government was gutless and sacrificed the rule of Law for political expediency.

McGuinty is pretty irrelevant now.

Look at the reality, Bill:

Mom and Pop native tobacco shops on reserve are not staffed to do the accounting involved in collecting provincial taxes, and have no interest in or obligation to do so.

Non natives who buy smokes there have a tax obligation.

For comparison ... Canadians buying goods in the US have tax and duty obligations, but US vendors have no obligation to collect those.

The onus is on the buyer.

Edited October 27, 2012 by jacee

[Mr.Canada]

I guess it's been clarified in Ontario.

They're not in the business of collecting the government's taxes.

It appears to me that there is a challenge - assertion of treaty rights - going on in Manitoba. The courts will decide.

Great, then when they get cancer let the natives pay for treatment as well. Ok?

Corrupt natives are collecting cash and not paying taxes, taxes that would normally go towards paying for hospitals etc.

We forced them to sign the treaties, it wasn't an even fight...lol. We could've wiped them out like they nearly did in the US and now it's coming back to bite us in the ass. They would've been better off to just kill them all, we wouldn't have the problems we're having today.

Trying to be the nice guy has never worked out for us, it's more trouble then it's worth. Canada needs to look after the majority and if the minorities don't like it they can live elsewhere.

Main point is they need to pay taxes on tobacco to pay for the cancer centres. 25,000 people in Canada are diagnosed with lung cancer every year and 20,000 will die of it. source To claim that the natives selling smokes doesn't add to this figure is being dishonest. My father died on Sept.15 of cancer caused by smoking, he smoked native cigarettes. Cigarettes cause cancer. Natives sell cigarettes. People are treated in public hospitals, natives need to take responsibility for this and help offset the cost.

[jacee]

Great, then when they get cancer let the natives pay for treatment as well. Ok?

Corrupt natives are collecting cash and not paying taxes, taxes that would normally go towards paying for hospitals etc.

We forced them to sign the treaties, it wasn't an even fight...lol. We could've wiped them out like they nearly did in the US and now it's coming back to bite us in the ass. They would've been better off to just kill them all, we wouldn't have the problems we're having today.

Trying to be the nice guy has never worked out for us, it's more trouble then it's worth. Canada needs to look after the majority and if the minorities don't like it they can live elsewhere.

Main point is they need to pay taxes on tobacco to pay for the cancer centres. 25,000 people in Canada are diagnosed with lung cancer every year and 20,000 will die of it. source To claim that the natives selling smokes doesn't add to this figure is being dishonest. My father died on Sept.15 of cancer caused by smoking, he smoked native cigarettes. Cigarettes cause cancer. Natives sell cigarettes. People are treated in public hospitals, natives need to take responsibility for this and help offset the cost.

Sorry for your loss.

Convenience store operators sell smokes too.

Should we just "kill them all" too?

[Wild Bill]

McGuinty is pretty irrelevant now.

Look at the reality, Bill:

Mom and Pop native tobacco shops on reserve are not staffed to do the accounting involved in collecting provincial taxes, and have no interest in or obligation to do so.

Non natives who buy smokes there have a tax obligation.

For comparison ... Canadians buying goods in the US have tax and duty obligations, but US vendors have no obligation to collect those.

The onus is on the buyer.

Variety stores off reserve have to collect the taxes! And how far would they get if they didn't bother, got busted and told the judge "are not staffed to do the accounting involved in collecting provincial taxes, and have no interest in or obligation to do so."?

Again you say they "have no interest in or obligation to do so". This is contrary to anything and everything I have ever heard about the legalities of the situation and the Indian Act.

You made the claim. I ask again, have you a cite or something to back that up? Where does it say natives can sell to non-natives and ignore taxes?

Your comparison with the USA is a non sequitur. The USA is a sovereign, foreign nation. Native reserves are NOT! Sovereign nations look after themselves. They do not take welfare. Or will you claim that it is somehow "tribute"? What country provides health care for a foreign country?

I ask again, please stop dodging and weaseling like a lawyer. Please cite or give us SOMETHING to show that legally natives can sell to non-natives without collecting taxes!

[jacee]

Variety stores off reserve have to collect the taxes! And how far would they get if they didn't bother, got busted and told the judge "are not staffed to do the accounting involved in collecting provincial taxes, and have no interest in or obligation to do so."?

Again you say they "have no interest in or obligation to do so". This is contrary to anything and everything I have ever heard about the legalities of the situation and the Indian Act.

You made the claim. I ask again, have you a cite or something to back that up? Where does it say natives can sell to non-natives and ignore taxes?

Your comparison with the USA is a non sequitur. The USA is a sovereign, foreign nation. Native reserves are NOT! Sovereign nations look after themselves. They do not take welfare. Or will you claim that it is somehow "tribute"? What country provides health care for a foreign country?

I ask again, please stop dodging and weaseling like a lawyer. Please cite or give us SOMETHING to show that legally natives can sell to non-natives without collecting taxes!

Show me where it says Native shops on reserves have to collect and remit provincial taxes for nonnatives?

Edited October 27, 2012 by jacee

[Mr.Canada]

Sorry for your loss.

Convenience store operators sell smokes too.

Should we just "kill them all" too?

Thank you.

Tobacco sold by corner stores is taxed. Tobacco sold by natives isn't.

Edited October 27, 2012 by Mr.Canada

[Guest Peeves]

They're supposed to be charging tax to non natives. They're not.

Some records are broken some broken records as you can read, should be,because they are cracked.

[Wild Bill]

Show me where it says Native shops on reserves have to collect and remit taxes for nonnatives?

Don't pull that! YOU made the claim so its up to you to defend it!

First rule of debate! The other guy doesn't have to prove your point for you!

Either prove it or retract it! Don't weasel!

[jacee]

Don't pull that! YOU made the claim so its up to you to defend it!

First rule of debate! The other guy doesn't have to prove your point for you!

Either prove it or retract it! Don't weasel!

I'm not going looking for a law that doesn't exist.

[Guest Peeves]

I doubt there's an Ontarian that doesn't know of the criminal element behind illegal smokes.

http://www.niagarare...nd-tobacco.aspx

Contraband Tobacco

Contraband tobacco is any tobacco product that is not taxed or regulated, and is illegal.

Contraband tobacco is most easily recognized by the public as 200 cigarettes in a clear plastic bag with no health warnings or labels, sold for a much cheaper price than regulated cigarettes.

http://www.owensound...-illegal-smokes

Borders mean nothing.

"Cigarettes smuggled into Canada via First Nations reserves that straddle the American- Canada border constitute the largest supply of contraband tobacco in Ontario, the report says.

RCMP Sgt. Michael Harvey, a member of a Cornwall-based tobacco smuggling task force, said up to 90% of illegal cigarettes sold in Canada are smuggled into the country through Akwesasne Territory, which has land in Ontario, Quebec and New York State.

Funded largely by organized crime, including motorcycle gangs and native organizations, the illegal tobacco is smuggled into Ontario by ship and car before being sold at "smoke shacks" on First Nations reserves and out of the trunks of cars, Harvey said.

He said smugglers "take advantage of the political sensitivity" surrounding enforcement on native reserves.

Cigarettes legally manufactured for sale on native reserves to natives, but sold, untaxed, to non-natives and off-reserve also account for a portion of contraband tobacco in Ontario, the report says.

The Sun Times contacted the federal Indian Affairs department, but a spokeswoman referred all questions regarding contraband tobacco to the RCMP."

[Wild Bill]

I'm not going looking for a law that doesn't exist.

And I will not spend my time proving YOUR point!

You made the assertation, one that contradicts what has been common knowledge since the Indian Act was written. If you want someone to believe you, you have to make a better effort.

Otherwise, your point will simply be ignored.