There is no border-there is no province- just illegal tobacco sales

[Guest Peeves]

"You can purchase a bag of 200 illegal cigarettes for as little as $6 whereas the same amount of legal smokes costs between $70 and $100."

We lose millions in taxes. Health problems related to tobacco are staggering yet, the illegal trade in tobacco contribues nothing in taxes.

So why is it allowed to continue?

[cybercoma]

I don't think it's allowed to continue. The RCMP does go after this stuff.

This article is from less than a week ago.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/story/2012/10/16/mb-rosser-contraband-cigarettes.html

[Guest Peeves]

I don't think it's allowed to continue. The RCMP does go after this stuff.

This article is from less than a week ago.

http://www.cbc.ca/ne...cigarettes.html

Thats great. Hadn't read it.

I think Ontario is scared to death to take on any indigenous people.

[Wild Bill]

Thats great. Hadn't read it.

I think Ontario is scared to death to take on any indigenous people.

I dunno about Manitoba but from what I see here in Ontario I think you are absolutely right, Ontario, at least under McGuinty's Liberals, has not lifted a finger against the native operations.

Once or twice a year the OPP will stop little old blue-haired ladies from Brantford returning from Six Nations with their cheap smokes and scare the hell of of the old biddies. Seems rather a cheap shot, to me. Since there are MANY roads in and out of Six Nations they don't have the resources to block all routes. So those old ladies have long since learned that if they see a police car on their way in to just leave by a less common exit.

The protests at Caledonia have proven that Queens Park hasn't the stomach to challenge the natives. Natives will defend themselves strongly and even violently. Non-natives virtually always meekly do what they are told.

Any party that would stick the taxpayes with a 240 million+ dollar bill over a gas generating plant to save a Liberal seat during an election campaign would cheerfully ignore all the lost taxation of illegal smokes.

It's all a matter of what's most important to you.

[dre]

So why is it allowed to continue?

Same reason rape, murder, pedophilia, fraud, theft, speeding, jaywalking, drunk driving, and bestiality are "allowed" to continue. The government has a limited ammount of resources to put into enforcement/prosecution.

[jacee]

Sigh ... misleading thread reruns are so boring ...

Treaty rights folks ... We all have them ... the right to live on Indigenous land.

But not to interfere with traditional Indigenous trade in tobacco.

It's illegal for us to buy tobacco without paying taxes.

It's not illegal for them to sell it.

And that's not going to change.

Get over it.

So the ladies returning from the casino stopping by for some illegal tax free smokes get to take their chances with the law.

I doubt they really care what peeves and wild bill think about that.

[Wild Bill]

Sigh ... misleading thread reruns are so boring ...

Treaty rights folks ... We all have them ... the right to live on Indigenous land.

But not to interfere with traditional Indigenous trade in tobacco.

It's illegal for us to buy tobacco without paying taxes.

It's not illegal for them to sell it.

And that's not going to change.

Get over it.

So the ladies returning from the casino stopping by for some illegal tax free smokes get to take their chances with the law.

I doubt they really care what peeves and wild bill think about that.

You know Jaycee, much of the reason I ignore you is that so often you don't seem to actually READ what I post! I sit back with my coffee mug in genuine awe, shaking my head and thinking "Where the hell did he get that idea? Did he just pull it out of his butt?"

Who the hell said I have a problem with those ladies getting cheap smokes? Where did I ever post such a thing?

For the record, as a libertarian type classic liberal, I APPLAUD cigarette smuggling! It shows the government to be the inept hypocrites they always have been.

The sky high taxes charged on tobacco are a joke, from my POV. They made smuggling inevitable. We went through this with Prohibition. Even more current, we went through this in the early 90's.

Yet our governments seem incapable of learning. Total blockheads, they are.

In my post I attacked McGuinty's government. Where did I say that I blamed the old ladies for taking advantage of a better deal?

Back in the 90's my sales route took me back through Caledonia at least once a week. I would buy a couple of DOZEN cartons, for office friends and family!

I never charged a dime of profit! It was my way of tweaking my nose at the government.

And I didn't smoke, myself!

I have never agreed with "sin taxes", or with any laws of any kind restricting what people choose to ingest into their own bodies. People must have the right to do with themselves whatever they wish, even if many if not most would consider it a mistake. That's freedom!

So pick on Peeves if you want but leave me alone! That's assuming of course that you will also pick on Peeves for what he did day and not whatever you pull out of your butt!

And before someone chastises me for personal attacks, please note that I am the injured party here!

[jacee]

I dunno about Manitoba but from what I see here in Ontario I think you are absolutely right, Ontario, at least under McGuinty's Liberals, has not lifted a finger against the native operations.

Nor can they.

There is nothing illegal about native tobacco operations.

It's only illegal for nonnatives to buy them.

[guyser]

.

There is nothing illegal about native tobacco operations.

It's only illegal for nonnatives to buy them.

Seriously?

How about smugglingthem in to sell?

Selling to minors?

[Guest Peeves]

Nor can they.

There is nothing illegal about native tobacco operations.

It's only illegal for nonnatives to buy them.

You might have noticed that I 'spoke' of borders. Native cigarettes are illegal.

Millions of illegal cigarettes seized in Manitoba

Illegal Cigarettes5:43

There is a booming black market for illegal cigarettes in Manitoba, as shown by the seizures of nearly two million contraband smokes within the past eight months.

Two brothers who were arrested in February for cigarette smuggling were found again in September with more illegal smokes, according to court documents obtained by CBC News.

In the Feb. 2 raid, RCMP and Manitoba Finance investigators seized 1.45 million contraband cigarettes and more than $415,000 in cash from a farm in the Rural Municipality of Rosser, located just outside Winnipeg.

The brothers, who are in their late 60s, were charged with possession of illegal cigarettes and tax evasion, as well as numerous weapons charges.

But later, a tip to investigators alleged the two men were still smuggling cigarettes.

Police and finance officials re-arrested the pair in September, after finding them with another stash of 500,000 cigarettes in a railway container on Logan Avenue.

Now, Manitoba Justice officials have gone to court to seize the $415,000 that was found in the February raid, along with some vehicles, according to court documents.

Smokes coming from First Nations

The sale of untaxed tobacco products is illegal in Manitoba, and those who are found to possess cigarettes that don't bear the proper provincial excise stamps could face stiff fines or jail time, the RCMP warned on Tuesday.

The contraband cigarettes in this case have been coming from First Nations in southern Ontario, according to court documents.

[jacee]

I'm guessing these were nonnatives.

[guyser]

I'm guessing these were nonnatives.

Which does nothing to diminish this error...

There is nothing illegal about native tobacco operations

[jacee]

With these native-manufactured cigarettes there is no question of "smuggling" per se, since the smokes are licensed for on-reserve sale by the federal Customs and Revenue Agency.

It's at the provincial level where the line between contraband and legal native cigarettes gets problematic. The provincial tax treatment of tobacco sold on-reserve varies from province to province, but the federal Indian Act says that provinces cannot tax "the personal property of an Indian or a band situated on a reserve," thus requiring courts to make tricky ontological decisions about the definitions of "personal property" and "situated."

...

The situation in Manitoba is even more complicated. The language of the Indian Act exemption might not apply to the off-reserve Dakota Chundee Smoke Shop, but Chief Brown points out that the treaty status of the Dakota is in question; the Dakota claim historic roots on both sides of the international border, but were considered refugees from American power by the British government of the 19th century. "We consider ourselves a sovereign nation that made a military, economic and trade alliance, as equals, with the British," he says. Later Canadian treaties do not include the Dakota at all, he adds.

http://www2.macleans.ca/2011/11/28/trouble-at-the-smoke-shack-tax-free-native-cigarettes-a-big-business-in-ontario-and-quebec-are-now-a-problem-for-western-provinces-too/

So there it is ... treaty challenges for Aboriginal vendors, will likely end up in Supreme Court.

But no question it's illegal for nonnatives.

Edited October 24, 2012 by jacee

[jacee]

osted Today, 11:49 AM

jacee, on 24 October 2012 - 11:45 AM, said:

I'm guessing these were nonnatives.

Which does nothing to diminish this error...

Quote

There is nothing illegal about native tobacco operations

There is nothing illegal about native tobacco operations on reserve in Ontario.

[Smallc]

There is nothing illegal about native tobacco operations on reserve in Ontario.

They're supposed to be charging tax to non natives. They're not.

[Guest Peeves]

There is nothing illegal about native tobacco operations on reserve in Ontario.

I did not confine this to Ontario. I repeat,I mentioned borders. Why do you insist on confining your position to Ontario when the sale of illegal tobacco has been shown to be a major bust elsewhere?

There is no border-there is no province- just illegal tobacco sales

"The sale of untaxed tobacco products is illegal in Manitoba, and those who are found to possess cigarettes that don't bear the proper provincial excise stamps could face stiff fines or jail time, the RCMP warned on Tuesday.

The contraband cigarettes in this case have been coming from First Nations in southern Ontario, according to court documents.

My point being that the cigarettes are sold illegally in varied locations.

[jacee]

They're supposed to be charging tax to non natives. They're not.

No they have no mandate to collect the provinces taxes.

That's up to the purchaser.

[Mr.Canada]

The government needs to just show up with bulldozers , riot gear and shut down these criminals by force. Arrest all those who disobey and hold them in a prison like a refugee camp. I'm sick and tired of the Natives thinking they can do whatever they want without consequences. They need to obey the law like everyone else. If they cannot they deserve to go to jail. End of.

[jacee]

The government needs to just show up with bulldozers , riot gear and shut down these criminals by force. Arrest all those who disobey and hold them in a prison like a refugee camp. I'm sick and tired of the Natives thinking they can do whatever they want without consequences. They need to obey the law like everyone else. If they cannot they deserve to go to jail. End of.

Actually the problem is non natives disobeying the law.

That and peeves stirring up hatred.

That's all that's going on here.

Edited October 25, 2012 by jacee

[Mr.Canada]

Actually the problem is non natives disobeying the law.

That and peeves stirring up hatred.

That's all that's going on here.

There's a serious native problem in Canada. We let them have reserves but that wasn't enough for them Now they want everything and the Liberals want to cave in and give it to them.

Yeah he might be stirring up hatred but I don't see criticism as hatred.

[Smallc]

No they have no mandate to collect the provinces taxes.

That's up to the purchaser.

That isn't how it works. They in fact must collect taxes if they are selling a taxable product.

[jacee]

That isn't how it works. They in fact must collect taxes if they are selling a taxable product.

Don't play naive.

They in fact don't pay and don't collect provincial taxes on reserves.

[Smallc]

Don't play naive.

They in fact don't pay and don't collect provincial taxes on reserves.

In Manitoba, if I buy anything on reserve, I pay all taxes...or at least, I do if they're doing their job.

[jacee]

There's a serious native problem in Canada. We let them have reserves but that wasn't enough for them Now they want everything and the Liberals want to cave in and give it to them.

Yeah he might be stirring up hatred but I don't see criticism as hatred.

We "let them"?

They let us live here, according to the treaties we signed.

On reserve land, they don't pay, or collect, OUR taxes.

Your understanding is uninformed.

[jacee]

In Manitoba, if I buy anything on reserve, I pay all taxes...or at least, I do if they're doing their job.

I guess it's been clarified in Ontario.

They're not in the business of collecting the government's taxes.

It appears to me that there is a challenge - assertion of treaty rights - going on in Manitoba. The courts will decide.

Edited October 25, 2012 by jacee