The Mad Scramble..

[CPCFTW]

What about the scientists in the employ of Harper's government who've told me I can't fish because the effects of climate change have damaged salmon runs? That's an example by the way that's had a very dramatic effect on me.

That's a shame, but I wouldn't consider it a "serious side effect"... You can do something else and buy salmon. Maybe develop some better windmills and solar panels?

There is the vast world wide conspiracy to spend research grants.

huh?

Not when you make it sound so innocuous, no.

I still haven't heard how it is not innocuous. Best you could come up with is that some salmon runs are damaged?

[eyeball]

That's a shame, but I wouldn't consider it a "serious side effect"... You can do something else and buy salmon. Maybe develop some better windmills and solar panels?

I used to sell salmon, along with a coast full of communities that once depended on doing so for a living.

We suggested developing the salmon hatchery our community built but the government won't let us.

huh?

Good question.

I still haven't heard how it is not innocuous. Best you could come up with is that some salmon runs are damaged?

There is the irony of this discussion with a supporter of a government that views climate change as bunk while that same government cites it when defending it's policies i.e. it's management of salmon.

[Tilter]

There is some argument about oil being a non-renewable product. This is something that has just been accepted for over 100 years, because 100 years ago they had formulated a theory as to where oil came from.

Some believe that hydrocarbons are continually being formed deep within the earth and very slowly collect into pools.

Even if vegetation eons ago lay hundreds of miles thick on the surface of the earth I find it hard to believe it could have eventually become as much oil and natural gas as we have already pumped out, let alone all the reserves that are left.

I think there must be a better explanation - one that may include a constant formation process rather than the dead plant theory.

vegetation eons ago lay hundreds of miles thick on the surface of the earth

the key is in the words "billions of years"

if you pile a hundred feet of something per year for a billion years you end up with a hundred billion feet of the something which a pile as high as the pile of infogarbage put out by the various governments & politicians in Canada each month, in other words, a pile unclimbable.

[Wild Bill]

the key is in the words "billions of years"

if you pile a hundred feet of something per year for a billion years you end up with a hundred billion feet of the something which a pile as high as the pile of infogarbage put out by the various governments & politicians in Canada each month, in other words, a pile unclimbable.

Are you saying the stuff will just sit there for billions of years, slowly turning into petroleum? No drying up and blown away? No being eaten by bacteria?

Then after those billions of years, it will suddenly dive down tens if not hundreds of thousands of feet into the earth and rock, waiting there undisturbed until somebody drills into it?

I'm willing to accept that biomass might turn into petroleum if left in a sealed bottle for billions of years. You are asking me to believe something totally different.

How deep is the average peat bog? How long does it take to form? How much longer before peat could or even would become petroleum?

Was all of the middle east covered in thousands of feet of peat? Or Texas, Oklahoma and other surrounding states?

Were the Alberta oil sands once a gigantic peat bog thousands of feet high, that lay undisturbed by the elements while they slowly turned into petroleum tars?

Again, it's not the principle but the logistics that bothers me.

Edited September 29, 2012 by Wild Bill

[Bonam]

Will Bill, surely you must be aware that the process of sedimentation buries things under ground over time? Why do you think ancient cities are found buried under meters of rock, dust, sand, etc? And they are only a few thousand years old. Things that are millions or tens of millions of years old would be buried much deeper. There's no "sudden diving" involved. Come on now man, you know better.

Edited September 29, 2012 by Bonam

[eyeball]

Will Bill, surely you must be aware that the process of sedimentation buries things under ground over time? Why do you think ancient cities are found buried under meters of rock, dust, sand, etc? And they are only a few thousand years old. Things that are millions or tens of millions of years old would be buried much deeper. There's no "sudden diving" involved. Come on now man, you know better.

He's usually so proud of his techie background but his heart has clearly been kicking the crap out of his nose these last few months.

I'm starting to get a little concerned the fumes from years of soldering electronic components together have left him all stuffed up.

[wyly]

I haven't heard the majority of scientists say there will be "serious side effects". Can you give me some examples of the serious side effects?

First it was that the majority of scientists (and remember we're talking about climate "scientists") agreed that global warming is happening and is happening because of humans, now the narrative is that the majority of scientists say there will be "serious side effects"? You guys just keep pushing it further.

I asked in the other thread if any studies have been done on the economic benefits of global warming... no one bothered answering:

the problem is "you guys" justdon't bother to learn the science and understand the "big picture"....a recent study already estimates the cost of climate change already costing 1.2 trillion dollars, reducing global GDP by 1.6%, and is contributing to an estimated 400,000 deaths per year...

I'm not afraid of a few degrees warmer temperatures? Are you?

what I fear are uninformed who can't comprehend some basic ramifications of climate change, a few degrees (5c)is all that separates us from the last ice age, so a few degrees in the other direction should scare the crap out you...

[Wild Bill]

Will Bill, surely you must be aware that the process of sedimentation buries things under ground over time? Why do you think ancient cities are found buried under meters of rock, dust, sand, etc? And they are only a few thousand years old. Things that are millions or tens of millions of years old would be buried much deeper. There's no "sudden diving" involved. Come on now man, you know better.

Of course I am aware of sedimentation! It's just that there is a bit more being asked here. Biomass left out on the open tends to decompose. It loses much of its moisture and its volume becomes a pittance of what it initially had.

Dry plant life is easily blown away by the wind, or washed away by the rains. This would also be occurring over those same millions of years.

Peat bogs would seem to be a first step in the process of biomass turning into petroleum. Yet we find such bogs in relatively few and specific areas, covering nowhere near the extent of land where we find oil fields.

It just seems that the explanation of grass and trees becoming so much petroleum, even over millions of years, seems just a bit too pat.

I would be more inclined to believe that if an Ice Age came on far more quickly than we have supposed, such as in as little as 50 years, the weight of the ice sheets might compress equatorial rainforests into petroleum over 50-1000 years. Those same ice sheets might also bury the material.

I mean, my lawn mower mulches my grass as it cuts. After a hot summer you would be hard put to find any traces of that cut grass.

Again, I am not uncomfortable with the principle but I am still finding the standard explanation of the process takes a lot of things for granted.

[CPCFTW]

the problem is "you guys" justdon't bother to learn the science and understand the "big picture"....a recent study already estimates the cost of climate change already costing 1.2 trillion dollars, reducing global GDP by 1.6%, and is contributing to an estimated 400,000 deaths per year...

what I fear are uninformed who can't comprehend some basic ramifications of climate change, a few degrees (5c)is all that separates us from the last ice age, so a few degrees in the other direction should scare the crap out you...

Ah yes, the impartial study by the dara institute?

The study that said 5 million people died in 2010 due to climate change?

The thing about these "studies" is that they don't account for any benefits of climate change. They do a SWOT analysis and ignore the S and O.

Here's the "study":

http://daraint.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/CVM-Findings-and-recommendations11.pdf

What a joke.

Edited September 30, 2012 by CPCFTW

[Rocky Road]

http://nitawriter.wordpress.com/2007/05/11/suicide-rates-of-the-world/

"According to WHO statistics, one person commits suicide every 40 seconds. Suicide rates all over the world have increased by 5- 62% in the last two decades. Hardly any country is immune to this disease. Whats disturbing is that more young people are killing themselves than ever before"

[Bonam]

http://nitawriter.wordpress.com/2007/05/11/suicide-rates-of-the-world/

"According to WHO statistics, one person commits suicide every 40 seconds. Suicide rates all over the world have increased by 5- 62% in the last two decades. Hardly any country is immune to this disease. Whats disturbing is that more young people are killing themselves than ever before"

Suicide is not a "disease". It may be the result of a mental illness in some cases, but suicide itself is an action, not a condition. Anyway, what's that have to do with anything on this thread?

Edited September 30, 2012 by Bonam

[Rocky Road]

Suicide is not a "disease". It may be the result of a mental illness in some cases, but suicide itself is an action, not a condition. Anyway, what's that have to do with anything on this thread?

Mental health surely relates to the Mad Scramble, because people who lose their ability to cope with the highly competitive, fierce, dog-eat-dog global village fall prey to depression, schizophrenia, substance abuse, bipolar disorder, etc...

In fact, I would add that sane policy is a bit of a fossil, because we are having to make more decisions that affect millions of lives all the time, like Harper telling Netanyahu that Canada won't "demand a red line" with Iran.

[Rocky Road]

http://www.amazon.com/The-Big-Flatline-No-Growth-Economy/dp/0230342183

"The author (Jeff Rubin), was on Bloomberg this morning. He was pretty much taughting what CM has been for years. Cheap Oil is gone, and the economy CANNOT grow without it! It was a good interview, and surprising to hear on MSM. The interviewers were very reluctant to agree with his premis though...shocker.

The predicament is going main stream. Slowely, but still getting there.

Basic premis of the book:

In an urgent follow-up to his best-selling Why Your World Is About To Get A Whole Lot Smaller, Jeff Rubin argues that the end of cheap oil means the end of growth. What it will be like to live in a world where growth is over?

Economist and resource analyst Jeff Rubin is certain that the world's governments are getting it wrong. Instead of moving us toward economic recovery, the measures being taken around the globe right now are digging us into a deeper hole. Both politicians and economists are missing the fact that the real engine of economic growth has always been cheap, abundant fuel and resources. But that era is over. The end of cheap oil, Rubin argues, signals the end of growth--and the end of easy answers to renewing prosperity.

With China and India sucking up the lion's share of the world's ever more limited resources, the rest of us will have to make do with less. But is this all bad? Rubin points out that there is no research to show that people living in countries with hard-charging economies are happier, and plenty of research to show that some of the most contented people on the planet live in places with no growth or slow growth. But bad or good, it's the new reality, and Rubin reveals how our day-to-day lives will be drastically changed.

"

[CPCFTW]

Cool a book...

[wyly]

Of course I am aware of sedimentation! It's just that there is a bit more being asked here. Biomass left out on the open tends to decompose. It loses much of its moisture and its volume becomes a pittance of what it initially had.

Dry plant life is easily blown away by the wind, or washed away by the rains. This would also be occurring over those same millions of years.

Peat bogs would seem to be a first step in the process of biomass turning into petroleum. Yet we find such bogs in relatively few and specific areas, covering nowhere near the extent of land where we find oil fields.

It just seems that the explanation of grass and trees becoming so much petroleum, even over millions of years, seems just a bit too pat.

I would be more inclined to believe that if an Ice Age came on far more quickly than we have supposed, such as in as little as 50 years, the weight of the ice sheets might compress equatorial rainforests into petroleum over 50-1000 years. Those same ice sheets might also bury the material.

I mean, my lawn mower mulches my grass as it cuts. After a hot summer you would be hard put to find any traces of that cut grass.

Again, I am not uncomfortable with the principle but I am still finding the standard explanation of the process takes a lot of things for granted.

a simple google would've answered most of you questions, petroleum is thought to come from the ocean sediments(plant and animal) not jungles and forests...forests,swamps, peat bogs and such-coal...

[wyly]

Ah yes, the impartial study by the dara institute?

The study that said 5 million people died in 2010 due to climate change?

The thing about these "studies" is that they don't account for any benefits of climate change. They do a SWOT analysis and ignore the S and O.

Here's the "study":

http://daraint.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/CVM-Findings-and-recommendations11.pdf

What a joke.

:lol: here's the real joke and it's a sad commentary on your education, you can't comprehend what you read! forget about trying to understand the science of climate change

[ThePoliticalBouillon]

we should at very minimum find ways to stop burning the stuff, if not for CC then for the stupidity of burning up a non renewable resource, it's gone forever when we follow that route...millions of products are derived from oil, burning up a finite resource will only drive up the cost of those products...

I agree, not only is it socially responsible (reduce co2 emissions to prevent or slow global warming) but according to the economic implication of finite resources, it is the only think we can do, unless we all want to die that is.

[Rocky Road]

Cool a book...

http://www.who.int/mental_health/evidence/en/

Madness is a serious issue.

[Rocky Road]

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