even george bush refused to accept jerusalem as the capital of israel

[bleeding heart]

No, that is not "what I well know". That is your imaginary narrative in order to play the moral relativity game. If you fear having your fantasies challenged, why do you come to this board?

I'm preeeettttyy sure that you are the coward in this little game of yours, kraychik. As for moral relativity, yours goes without saying.

Hiding behind false accusations of "trolling" when you are called out for your indefensible positions

Yeah, a remark about "Arab and Israeli violence and intransigence" is so incredibly off the wall, so utterly indefensible....

It's actually quite revealing, and sick, that you're trying to tell us that the 1929 Hebron massacre was a result of "Israeli intransigence".

And there it is again: you pull bile from thin air and fashion it into a weapon against a fantasy opponent who is unrelated to the poster with whom you're ostensibly having a discussion.

Did you hone your dishonest debating methods through years of being smacked down by more intelligent posters? Or is it a natural character flaw?

Edited September 26, 2012 by bleeding heart

[kraychik]

A mass murder of the Jews in the early 1900s happened in Germany, Russia, as well as persecution in Spain, France etc. Must mean all those places are Islamic terrorist.

The Jewish peoples have had problems through out History which often lead back to their Religion being one of the only ones at a time in which they were able to lend money. All we have to do is look to Shakespeare to understand that even the most tolerant of peoples had horrible attitudes toward the Jews. These things however can not be used as evidence for anything other then horrible intolerance of all peoples for the Jews historically.

Thank you for proving my point. The conflict has nothing to do with the post 1967-settlements, but has a lot to do with good old fashioned anti-Semitism.

[punked]

Thank you for proving my point. The conflict has nothing to do with the post 1967-settlements, but has a lot to do with good old fashioned anti-Semitism.

I am sure anti-Semitism has a lot to do with it. Anti-Semitism has its roots in something though, people didn't wake up one morning and say "I am going to hate the Jews". In that part of the world it is more about the land grab then say Nazi Germany which had its roots in Historically the Jewish people being the only religion in the world that really allowed money lending and charging interest. There are reasons for these things and the healing will happen someday but it never will if we pretend that the Palestinian people don't have some very real claims that should be addressed. The status Quo is not an option.

[Mr.Canada]

are you some kind of troll? those are funny statements.

you have to be.

I stated that the Israeli military is far superior to the Palestine military and Israel could simply take Palestine if they wished to.

Ok prove to me that the Palestine military is at least equal to the Israeli military if you don't believe what I stated above.

Israel spends $50 billion per year on military. Palestine spends ~ $100 million which is provided by the United States. If it wasn't for the US they would have nothing.

Here is a list of the strongest militaries in the world. Israel in number 10 I don't see Palestine in the top 55 anywhere.

Edited September 26, 2012 by Mr.Canada

[bud]

I stated that the Israeli military is far superior to the Palestine military and Israel could simply take Palestine if they wished to.

Ok prove to me that the Palestine military is at least equal to the Israeli military if you don't believe what I stated above.

Israel spends $50 billion per year on military. Palestine spends ~ $100 million which is provided by the United States. If it wasn't for the US they would have nothing.

Here is a list of the strongest militaries in the world. Israel in number 10 I don't see Palestine in the top 55 anywhere.

i don't question israel's military strength. they have one of the most powerful militaries in the world. it also helps that they receive $3 billion + a year from the u.s. towards their military, including information on some of the top tech toys in the world.

that's besides the point. if israel suddenly attacks and wipes the palestinians out, they'd be fucked internationally. this is why they're engaging in a slow and systematic form of ethnic cleansing and land theft. this is why the jewish settlements in the west bank and east jerusalem continue to increase.

Edited September 27, 2012 by bud

[Mr.Canada]

i don't question israel's military strength. they have one of the most powerful armies and weapons in the world. it also helps that they receive $3 billion + a year from the u.s. towards their military, including information on some of the top tech toys in the world.

that's besides the point. if israel suddenly attacks and wipes the palestinians out, they'd be fucked internationally. this is why they're engaging in a slow and systematic form of ethnic cleansing and land theft. this is why the jewish settlements in the west bank and east jerusalem continue to increase.

There are many Arabs who live in Israel and they are still alive afaik, so I don't see any ethnic cleansing going on. So multiculturalism is fine for Israel but Palestine must remain 100% Arab?

Do you also think that whole cultural groups that live together in Canada should be removed to make the majority happy?

[bud]

There are many Arabs who live in Israel and they are still alive afaik, so I don't see any ethnic cleansing going on. So multiculturalism is fine for Israel but Palestine must remain 100% Arab?

not to say that the palestinians living in israel are treated fairly, but there is a difference between what is inside israel and what is in the occupied territories. here is an example of systematic ethnic cleansing:

east jerusalem has been occupied and illegally annexed by israel. as according to international law (which u.s. and canada agree with), the annexation is illegal. what is happening in east jerusalem is ethnic cleansing. there are thousands of cases of arab homes being confiscated and then given to jews to live in. they make it more and more difficult for palestinians to stay in east jerusalem. housing permits are pretty much impossible to get if you are palestinian. if you are jewish, it's a piece of cake.

inside israel: if a palestinian living in israel gets married to a palestinian outside of israel, he cannot bring his/her spouse over. while any jew is able to move to israel.

history of ethnic cleansing: palestinians were expelled from their homes. over 500 palestinian villages were destroyed and around 700,000 palestinians fleed their homes due to fears of being killed. thousands were killed by jewish militants, including the massacre in the village deir yassin. of the 700,000 palestinians who fleed, none were allowed to comeback to their homes. this is an example of ethnic cleansing.

you can read more about the ethnic cleansing of palestinians.

Do you also think that whole cultural groups that live together in Canada should be removed to make the majority happy?

i don't understand why you're asking me a bizarre question like i agreed with the premise somewhere else.

[Mr.Canada]

Ethnic cleansing is what Hilter and Milosovic tried to do. Not moving people around. You seem to advocate a 100% Arab Palestine wanting all Jews removed from Palestine. But you think Arabs can live in Israel and that's ok. So since you don't think other cultures should live together in Palestine, you've made that clear. Do you think it's ok for other cultures to live together in Canada? Why the double standard?

[bud]

Ethnic cleansing is what Hilter and Milosovic tried to do. Not moving people around.

we need to visit the meaning of ethnic cleansing:

Ethnic cleansing (from Serbo-Croatian etničko čišćenje[1]) is a purposeful policy designed by one ethnic or religious group to remove by violent and terror-inspiring means the civilian population of another ethnic or religious group from certain geographic areas.

this is exactly what israel has been doing.

You seem to advocate a 100% Arab Palestine wanting all Jews removed from Palestine.

not sure how you came about that conclusion. let me explain my view: i don't advocate 100% arab palestine. when did i say that? i'm talking about illegal jewish settlements that israel has created inside the palestinian territory which are cut off from palestinians. i'm talking about the jewish only roads that connect these illegal settlements to israel. these are lands that have been stolen from palestinians to create jewish only colonies. these jewish settlements are all considered illegal under international law for a reason.

for your information, here is canada's official stance on keys issues in the palestinian/israeli conflict:

Status of Jerusalem

Canada does not recognize Israel's unilateral annexation of East Jerusalem.

Occupied Territories and Settlements

Canada does not recognize permanent Israeli control over territories occupied in 1967 (the Golan Heights, the West Bank, East Jerusalem and the Gaza Strip). The Fourth Geneva Convention applies in the occupied territories and establishes Israel's obligations as an occupying power, in particular with respect to the humane treatment of the inhabitants of the occupied territories. As referred to in UN Security Council Resolutions 446 and 465, Israeli settlements in the occupied territories are a violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention. The settlements also constitute a serious obstacle to achieving a comprehensive, just and lasting peace.

[kraychik]

I am sure anti-Semitism has a lot to do with it. Anti-Semitism has its roots in something though, people didn't wake up one morning and say "I am going to hate the Jews". In that part of the world it is more about the land grab then say Nazi Germany which had its roots in Historically the Jewish people being the only religion in the world that really allowed money lending and charging interest. There are reasons for these things and the healing will happen someday but it never will if we pretend that the Palestinian people don't have some very real claims that should be addressed. The status Quo is not an option.

Anti-Semitism has everything to do with it. And why do you think Jews were so strongly associated with money lending? It's because they were prohibited from participating in many other lines of work. So anti-Semitism not only precedes these events, it is the CAUSE of these events.

Fast forward to the Israel-Arab conflict, and leftists like bleeding heart whose familiarity with this conflict begins and ends with CBC headlines parrot a false narrative of settlements being at the core of the conflict, despite the conflict starting almost a century earlier.

[punked]

Anti-Semitism has everything to do with it. And why do you think Jews were so strongly associated with money lending? It's because they were prohibited from participating in many other lines of work. So anti-Semitism not only precedes these events, it is the CAUSE of these events.

Fast forward to the Israel-Arab conflict, and leftists like bleeding heart whose familiarity with this conflict begins and ends with CBC headlines parrot a false narrative of settlements being at the core of the conflict, despite the conflict starting almost a century earlier.

You really don't get to rewrite history. Jews were money lenders early (and I am talking years 300-600) because other religions prohibited people from lending money. So Jews often filled the void. Now I am not saying that was a job Jews did exclusively like you seem to think, for a whole town you might only have one money lender and a thousand Jews. That money lender was Jewish because no one else religion allowed them to compete in the market. Now because the Jews were money lenders they were hated. It is natural for people to hate people they owe debts to, heck the banks are the target of every populist party in the world right now. These are were the roots of Anti-Semitism comes from. People didn't wake up one morning (like you seem to think) and start hating the Jews, there really are causes. The causes are much more complex then what I have laid out but there are historical causes that aren't just people are born hating Jews. You need to pick up a book because you clearly do not understand the history or todays problems.