"A poor person never gave me a job!"

Bonam · September 8, 2012

$50K isn't what you make when you're 18-22 years old, with zero education. Your "average" includes University Grads.

Feel free to change the numbers to 30k salary vs 50k and rerun the numbers.

$40K is not tuition for 4 years, it's closer to $20K. statscan - average tuition fees.[

I paid about $40k hence why I used that number. I guess my program/university was more expensive than average.

Your inflation scenario is pointless, because the 'extra' money the graduate earns seems to disappear, while your 18-year old has money to invest.

The BA only earns extra money relative to the non-BA late in life, close to retirement, when it has little time to grow. The money saved by not paying tuition is money at the start of your career, with 40+ years to grow.

Even then, you only came up with $6k per year.

$6k for the break even point, more to actually get ahead.

But all of the above are numerical quibbles, here's the real problem:

Here's the result again from statscan

"a university graduate had earnings nearly double that of a high school graduate ($23,000 more)."

That data includes all degrees. Care to separate it out? Whats the average for arts grads?

And again, for someone taking the time and money to get a university degree, the real comparison should be against other degrees they could take.

Edited September 8, 2012 by Bonam

Bonam · September 8, 2012

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for education, but the real lifetime costs should be considered. A lot of people don't really consider their future job prospects, the debt they will take on, and they naively think that any university degree should ensure a comfortable middle class - upper middle class lifestyle. But that's just not the case.

Michael Hardner · September 8, 2012

"

That data includes all degrees. Care to separate it out? Whats the average for arts grads?

"

Great question- let's see:

Feel free to change the numbers to 30k salary vs 50k and rerun the numbers.

They're not my numbers. I'll put numbers below.

I paid about $40k hence why I used that number. I guess my program/university was more expensive than average.

Arts degrees is what we're talking about, as you've pointed out, and they're on the lower end.

The BA only earns extra money relative to the non-BA late in life, close to retirement, when it has little time to grow. The money saved by not paying tuition is money at the start of your career, with 40+ years to grow.

Not true.

They're exceeding the average ofaround $27K for 16-24 year olds if they graduate even with the lowest paying degrees:

$43,468—Social Sciences (92.5)

$42,181—Agricultural and Biological Sciences (89.9)

$43,571—Journalism (95.2)

$42,000—Forestry (100.0)

$41,667—Architecture and Landscape Architecture (96.4)

$38,407—Humanities (90.9)

$35,000—Theology (100.0)

$34,653—Fine and Applied Arts (93.5)

This is right after graduation. If you average out over all careers with high school vs a degree, you'll end up with $30K per year difference, which seems to mean that whatever difference we're talking about at graduation seems to increase with time.

$6k for the break even point, more to actually get ahead.

'Break even' meaning that one person has an education, and a degree and the attendant benefits of that even if salary payout is the same over a career.

And again, for someone taking the time and money to get a university degree, the real comparison should be against other degrees they could take.

Maybe they can't take other degrees ? Maybe they aren't good enough at math or chemistry to do those careers but are otherwise intelligent and have great potential.

I'm not sure if we're talking about the myth that ability to do math and computer science equates to a rewarding career, but if so let's kill that one. There are people who win/lose with their education choices, but the only 'sure thing' from what I can see is professional designation that is limited such as lawyer, dentist, doctor.

Bonam · September 8, 2012

Consider a list like this:

http://www.payscale.com/best-colleges/degrees.asp

Note how the top is dominated by engineering and other technical degrees, and the bottom dominated by arts degrees. Note that the spread is more than a full factor of 3.

Edit: Your Macleans data shows roughly the same factor of 3 spread, though it includes post-graduate professions, not just undergrad degrees.

Edited September 8, 2012 by Bonam

Michael Hardner · September 8, 2012

And it still shows that Arts degrees are worth the investment, purely in terms of salary - so what are we still talking about ? A degree in Drama already pays about $10K more than the Canadian average for a 24 year old according to your data.

TimG · September 8, 2012

And it still shows that Arts degrees are worth the investment, purely in terms of salary - so what are we still talking about ? A degree in Drama already pays about $10K more than the Canadian average for a 24 year old according to your data.

Those stats only take into account people who get a full time job in their field. To be useful these numbers need to be adjusted by the likelihood of actually getting a job in your field. For example, 66% of teachers graduating from teachers college cannot find full time work (see http://oncampus.macleans.ca/education/2012/01/24/teachers-college-applications-plummet/ ).

There is a risk with any degree that you spend the money and end up doing exactly what you would have been doing without the degree. But that risk is much higher with arts degrees.

Bonam · September 8, 2012

And it still shows that Arts degrees are worth the investment, purely in terms of salary - so what are we still talking about ? A degree in Drama already pays about $10K more than the Canadian average for a 24 year old according to your data.

I'm talking about the point I've made in every post:

And that of course is when you just compare the arts degree to no degree at all. What about comparing it to other degrees that you could have spent the same amount of time and money getting?

And again, for someone taking the time and money to get a university degree, the real comparison should be against other degrees they could take.

The various arts degrees manage to catch up to and eventually overtake a high school graduate towards the end of their respective careers, according to the numbers you've presented. Ok, that's great. It may be worth the investment: 20-40 years down the road.

Meanwhile other degrees overtake the high school graduate within a few years of finishing university. And there are hundreds of thousands of open jobs in those fields with employment rates near 100%, while unemployment rates for various soft degrees are around 10%.

If a company wants to choose to invest in project A or project B, and project B has a 3 times higher rate of return, guess which one it will pick. For an individual, the choice may be more nuanced, but I would still argue that too many people are getting degrees that are just not in demand, and too few are getting the ones that our economies really need. And the people out there complaining and protesting about not finding jobs, if they have post-secondary education at all, are mostly those who picked degrees with poor job prospects. They want to blame society for their problems, but the true cause lies in themselves: they needed to be a bit more practical when choosing their fields of study.

Edited September 8, 2012 by Bonam

cybercoma · September 8, 2012

Average salary in Canada is around $50k. 4 years of school is 4 years not working = $200k

LMFAO. You should be a job counsellor because I'm sure there are a ton of 18 year olds that would love to know how to get a $50,000/year job with a high school diploma. :lol:

cybercoma · September 8, 2012

Feel free to change the numbers to 30k salary vs 50k and rerun the numbers.

The median income (averages don't mean a damn thing when the values are so heavily skewed as income is) for 18-24 year olds is less than $25,000/year. Much less.

Bonam · September 8, 2012

LMFAO. You should be a job counsellor because I'm sure there are a ton of 18 year olds that would love to know how to get a $50,000/year job with a high school diploma.

Work at a fast food restaurant or retail store a few years and get a promotion to manager. If you're female, work as a waitress at a club/bar. Work as a highrise window cleaner (I did this for ~8 weeks and made $9k in that time: annualized that's $58k). Work as a garbage man or bus driver. Look for jobs at small businesses owned by family members or friends of family members.Work as an outdoor sports/adventure guide. Join the military.

Edited September 8, 2012 by Bonam

cybercoma · September 8, 2012

Yup. That's it. Fast food or retail where the average management position gets you what? $12/hr if you're lucky times 2080 hrs per year fulltime? $24,960. That's after moving up. You think a day labourer cleaning windows is making more than $12/hr? Work as a garbage man or a bus driver? How much does the airbrake license or the bus license cost to go through training and get? And how easy do you think it is to get into those positions? Well, you obviously think it's simple. Work as an outdoor sports/adventure guide? For what? 3 months out of the year? I'll give you waitress or military, but not everyone wants to do those jobs for a whole number of valid reasons.

Now that we're done with your little fantasy world where 18 year olds with high school diplomas get $25/hr jobs, you want to talk about reality sometime?

Bonam · September 8, 2012

Now that we're done with your little fantasy world where 18 year olds with high school diplomas get $25/hr jobs, you want to talk about reality sometime?

Shrug, I'm talking reality as I've lived it. I know people in each of the positions I've listed (besides bus driver and garbage man) that make 45k+. There are always opportunities out there in a place like Canada, or the US. All one has to do is find them and make the best of them. The reality where people are victims of fate forced to work their whole lives for minimum wage by evil capitalists is not my reality. And I like my reality a whole lot better than yours.

cybercoma · September 8, 2012

Nobody said it was, but you're saying someone going to university is foregoing a $50k/year job and that's just wrong. Very few people from 18-22 make that kind of money. Hell, some people out of university don't make that kind of money. You need to look at the national statistics, not just anecdotal cases if you want to make general statements about what people are giving up by going to university.

Bonam · September 8, 2012

Nobody said it was, but you're saying someone going to university is foregoing a $50k/year job and that's just wrong. Very few people from 18-22 make that kind of money. Hell, some people out of university don't make that kind of money. You need to look at the national statistics, not just anecdotal cases if you want to make general statements about what people are giving up by going to university.

$50k was an example scenario, and if you'd care to read the exchange between myself and Michael Hardner, you would see that I already conceded the point that $50k is not an average salary for an 18-22 year old with a high school degree.

Michael Hardner · September 8, 2012

Those stats only take into account people who get a full time job in their field.

Bonham's data does ? I just looked at the methodology and didn't see that.

To be useful these numbers need to be adjusted by the likelihood of actually getting a job in your field. For example, 66% of teachers graduating from teachers college cannot find full time work (see http://oncampus.macleans.ca/education/2012/01/24/teachers-college-applications-plummet/ ).

Teacher's college is an advanced degree - you need a bachelor's first.

There is a risk with any degree that you spend the money and end up doing exactly what you would have been doing without the degree. But that risk is much higher with arts degrees.

Of course there is a risk, and the risk is higher with Arts degree - but the overall stats shows it's better than a high school diploma, even if we use the very narrow criteria of salary as a metric for value as we are doing here.

Michael Hardner · September 8, 2012

The various arts degrees manage to catch up to and eventually overtake a high school graduate towards the end of their respective careers, according to the numbers you've presented. Ok, that's great. It may be worth the investment: 20-40 years down the road.

No they don't. They are making more money right from graduation according to my numbers and your numbers.

Meanwhile other degrees overtake the high school graduate within a few years of finishing university. And there are hundreds of thousands of open jobs in those fields with employment rates near 100%, while unemployment rates for various soft degrees are around 10%.

Yes some degrees pay better than others obviously, and according to your own stats:

Poly Sci is a better choice than IT or accounting.

Political Science (PolySci) $39,900 $80,100
Biotechnology $40,800 $79,900

International Relations $40,500 $79,400

Occupational Health and Safety $46,400 $79,000

American Studies $43,400 $78,600

Information Technology (IT) $48,300 $78,500

Industrial Technology (IT) $48,100 $78,400

Information Systems (IS) $48,300 $78,100

Telecommunications $37,300 $78,100

Urban Planning $41,500 $78,000

Accounting $44,700 $75,700

So let's ban those and roll everybody up into the more lucrative poly sci studies.

If a company wants to choose to invest in project A or project B, and project B has a 3 times higher rate of return, guess which one it will pick.

Gee, I don't know. Help me out with this very complex problem. :huh:

For an individual, the choice may be more nuanced, but I would still argue that too many people are getting degrees that are just not in demand, and too few are getting the ones that our economies really need.

You're talking about job training, not degrees which are supposed to be more general and theoretical - even in fields like Engineering. Otherwise, students should go for job training specific to one position.

And the people out there complaining and protesting about not finding jobs, if they have post-secondary education at all, are mostly those who picked degrees with poor job prospects. They want to blame society for their problems, but the true cause lies in themselves: they needed to be a bit more practical when choosing their fields of study.

You're making up a strawman here - this is about you not liking the archetype hippy protester. It's ok - nobody likes them, but you don't need to damn a whole field of study - just focus on despising the individuals and we'll all seem smarter.

Michael Hardner · September 8, 2012

Shrug, I'm talking reality as I've lived it. I know people in each of the positions I've listed (besides bus driver and garbage man) that make 45k+.

There are always opportunities out there in a place like Canada, or the US. All one has to do is find them and make the best of them. The reality where people are victims of fate forced to work their whole lives for minimum wage by evil capitalists is not my reality. And I like my reality a whole lot better than yours.

Some of those sound suspiciously like union positions. So you're an NDP guy then ? That's fine but you should know that those jobs are being frozen out by privatization... union jobs are very scarce and becoming insecure.

Michael Hardner · September 8, 2012

Looking back - Bonham was the first on this thread to throw Art education on the bus, and Wild Bill joined him a few posts later.

The point seems to be made that getting an Arts degree (generally) pays less than other degrees.

Ok, but it pays more than others from Bonham's own data and it's still way better than no postsecondary education at all. Are we chastising people for choosing art history instead of electrical engineering ?

If so, who are these both-brained mental behemoths ?

Bonam · September 8, 2012

No they don't. They are making more money right from graduation according to my numbers and your numbers.

They have to make up 4 years of lost income. I thought I made that quite clear. Even if you take 25k as the high school graduate's salary and 35k as the art's graduates (as per the data), and forget about tuition, it'll take 10 years for the BA to catch up. That is what I am talking about.

Yes some degrees pay better than others obviously, and according to your own stats:

Poly Sci is a better choice than IT or accounting.

So let's ban those and roll everybody up into the more lucrative poly sci studies.

Nowhere have I suggested banning any degrees or fields of study, nor would I ever suggest such a thing.

You're talking about job training, not degrees which are supposed to be more general and theoretical - even in fields like Engineering. Otherwise, students should go for job training specific to one position.

People aren't gonna be in one position their whole lives. Their degree needs to help prepare them for a lifetime career, not for one position. As such, it should emphasize fundamental skills, techniques, and knowledge. Training for an individual position is best left to employers, who can train new hires in the exact ways they want. But degrees have a strong impact on what kind of jobs one is likely to be able to qualify for. Preparation for certain fields of work is one of the primary reasons people get degrees.

Bonam · September 8, 2012

Some of those sound suspiciously like union positions. So you're an NDP guy then ? That's fine but you should know that those jobs are being frozen out by privatization... union jobs are very scarce and becoming insecure.

No, I'd think it'd be pretty obvious I'm not an "NDP guy".

Bonam · September 8, 2012

Looking back - Bonham was the first on this thread to throw Art education on the bus, and Wild Bill joined him a few posts later.

The point seems to be made that getting an Arts degree (generally) pays less than other degrees.

Ok, but it pays more than others from Bonham's own data and it's still way better than no postsecondary education at all. Are we chastising people for choosing art history instead of electrical engineering ?

If so, who are these both-brained mental behemoths ?

1. Please note my username is "Bonam" not "Bonham"

2. There are other fields that are not as mathematical as engineering that still pay much better than art history. It doesn't take a "mental behemoth" to look at that salary list.

3. People are free to choose whatever path they want in life, but they should understand and accept the financial consequences

Oh and to throw one other point out there:

A significant fraction of post-secondary costs is paid for by governments (taxpayers). These costs, on a per student basis, are often much higher than the tuition that students pay. If the economic benefit of certain degrees is insufficient to recoup those costs, or even simply a worse investment than other fields which could also use more investment, why should the government be spending money investing in education in these fields?

Edited September 8, 2012 by Bonam

bleeding heart · September 8, 2012

What's the going rate in India?

Or why do some doctors (from India) drive taxis (here)?

Why do Indian taxi drivers in Canada not make Indian cab driver wages?

That's the relevant question here.

bleeding heart · September 8, 2012

My point stands, anybody with a work ethic and smarts can become wealthy. Steve jobs and bill gates, and the founders of google sure didn't start out from their parents mansions. Maybe those university students aren't as smart as they think they are...

Bill Gates explicitly said that the "luck" of his upbringing was virtually 100% responsible for the position he's in now.

So, bad example....

Edited September 8, 2012 by bleeding heart

Canuckistani · September 8, 2012

blueblood, on 05 September 2012 - 10:34 AM, said:
My point stands, anybody with a work ethic and smarts can become wealthy. Steve jobs and bill gates, and the founders of google sure didn't start out from their parents mansions. Maybe those university students aren't as smart as they think they are...