CEOs: Aboriginal say in natural resource development

[cybercoma]

What I'm saying is that particular agreements were made due to our impact on their way of living. You don't get to turn around and wipe out those agreements because you feel it has been long enough and they should just give up their "backwards" heritage.

[Canuckistani]

I bet you reacted the same way with the situation in Walkerton too.

Yes, I blamed the local officials. I believe they were even prosecuted.

And yes. We're going to keep building shit there because that's what we do in the Rest of Canada. It just so happens that when it comes to First Nations the federal government takes the role of provincial and municipal government too. Except when you combine the spending by all three levels of government in the rest of Canada, it exceeds what the federal government spends on the First Nations.

Oh and that include their so-called handouts.

No government builds housing for people, they have to pay for it themselves. Public buildings are paid out of taxes, something Natives on reserves specifically don't have to pay. So the ROC is paying to have natives live on welfare. It's not good for them, and not good for us. Time for them to work and pay taxes, same as everybody else.

[cybercoma]

It's a complete myth that Natives on Reserves don't pay taxes.

[Wild Bill]

What I'm saying is that particular agreements were made due to our impact on their way of living. You don't get to turn around and wipe out those agreements because you feel it has been long enough and they should just give up their "backwards" heritage.

Are you saying that the natives at that time considered the entire land mass of Canada as theirs, to be an object of trade?

Are you saying that non-natives agreed to have natives as their landlords, forever?

I guess you didn't bother reading where I said that I agree there are valid native land claims. Ipperwash was an out and out ripoff by the federal government. However, the feds are NOT we ordinary citizens! The feds have been screwing non-natives far worse than natives since the country was founded!

I never said they should give up their heritage. I never said they had NO valid land claims. Go have a coffee, CC! This kind of one side or the other type of thinking is not usual for you. Don't you see that SOME land claims can be valid and SOME are not? I took exception to how you seemed to be saying that natives had a claim ON THE ENTIRE COUNTRY!

If you are going to argue with me can we stick to what I actually said?

Sheesh!

[Canuckistani]

It's a complete myth that Natives on Reserves don't pay taxes.

Got a link for that? I know that even in our treaty negotiations in BC, Natives were very reluctant to give up tax free status, and there's a long period after the treaty is settled before they actually have to pay any. Also, if you're just sitting around on your duff, because the white man didn't give you any jobs on your remote reserve, what income do you pay taxes on?

[guyser]

Got a link for that?

The myth is that Natives dont pay, but what is true is only for income earned on a reservation. So if Joe Duckbill works off res, he pays taxes.

They dont all get free Uni or College either.

[Canuckistani]

Which is why I said on reservation. The 3rd world conditions are on reservations in the middle of nowhere where there are no jobs. Everybody that does't work for the band council is on welfare. Are we really supposed to give them a middle class lifestyle. Why them but not non-Natives on welfare?

But, there are instances of housing on reservations near cities being in poor shape too, even tho the band council is sitting on millions. What's their excuse?

[guyser]

Which is why I said on reservation.

No , actually you didnt say that. Here is what you said.

Public buildings are paid out of taxes, something Natives on reserves specifically don't have to pay. So the ROC is paying to have natives live on welfare. It's not good for them, and not good for us. Time for them to work and pay taxes, same as everybody else.

So, they do pay taxes for income earned off Res.

[cybercoma]

Also often times on things they buy off the reservation. In NB it needs to be delivered to the reserve to get the tax rebate. If you work off res and you go out for lunch with your colleagues, you're not getting a tax rebate. If you don't want to pay the delivery fee because the things you're buying doesn't make it worthwhile, you pay taxes on them. Buy fuel off the reserve? You pay taxes, including the excise tax. They also don't get the GST rebate. Hell, there's Natives on the reserves that pay more in taxes than some Canadians off reserves pay.

Edited July 17, 2012 by cybercoma

[Canuckistani]

No , actually you didnt say that. Here is what you said.

So, they do pay taxes for income earned off Res.

To repeat:

Which is why I said on reservation. The 3rd world conditions are on reservations in the middle of nowhere where there are no jobs. Everybody that does't work for the band council is on welfare. Are we really supposed to give them a middle class lifestyle. Why them but not non-Natives on welfare?

But, there are instances of housing on reservations near cities being in poor shape too, even tho the band council is sitting on millions. What's their excuse?

[guyser]

To repeat:

Say it a third time and it will still be wrong.

[Canuckistani]

Just because it's not pc, doesn't make it wrong.

[guyser]

Just because it's not pc, doesn't make it wrong.

It isnt pc, its just plain wrong.

[jacee]

I truly think this is the first sign of the coming apocalypse…………I agree with you that this is a truly positive development and the this would truly be placing the horse before the cart in a long process that will hopefully see (most) aboriginal communities become self sufficient, thus allowing them to wean themselves off of Government assistance and/or reliance.

Grant them the opportunities to truly succeed first prior to cutting them loose………….It worked well for the vast majority of Alaskan aboriginal communities and hopefully we can mirror the same level of success.

I agree ... except that we are not "granting" them anything: The duty to consult and to accommodate Aboriginal rights is the law ... because it's their land. We live here by treaty only.

"Government assistance" paid out is a pittance compared to monies we owe them, and their accounts we haven't accounted for, and in any case such assistance is less than 'government assistance' received by any other Canadian communities.

So you're right ... this is good news.

It's just your supercilious attitude that's misplaced.

From the Aboriginal perspective we're the ones living off them and not paying our way.

Canada's wealth is entirely dependent on natural resources taken illegally from their land: They joke that it's still a mystery how OUR resources got under THEIR land.

Payback time.

Edited July 18, 2012 by jacee

[jacee]

That's an encouraging proclamation by the CEOs. Yet, it comes with a cautionary note.

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/canada/give-aboriginals-fair-say-in-natural-resource-talks-ceos-urge-ottawa-provinces-162516436.html?device=mobile

In other words, "We have only so much time in which operational decisions can be made and when innumerable roadblocks are thrown up we'll pull up stakes and invest elsewhere".

Seems to me that message was intended both for Natives and government.

Seems to me if they don't want it some other company will.

Seems to me that if the terms aren't right for the Aboriginal community, there won't be an industry OR some other company will get it right.

It's our governments that are dragging their feet now.

I'll bet their excuse is that they don't have the proper policies in place ... but that's no excuse for evading the law.

[jacee]

You need clarification on human nature and how the physics of power and influence work?

Satisfactory to who?

To the Aboriginal community involved, and according to criteria of the court - ie the law.

The Supreme Court has sent some agreements back to the table that failed to "adequately" consult and provide "reasonable" accommodation for use and abuse of the land.

[jacee]

So we're going to keep building them water treatment plants, schools and other infrastructure, none of which they bother to maintain? How about they actually do something for themselves instead of just sitting there with their hands out, playing the victim?

Do we really want to create, or more accurately further develop, a system where by some people in Canada get a share of resource income just by nature of their genetic makeup, without having to lift a finger to do a lick of work to earn it? Will that really do them any good?

It's their land.

We're the moochers.

Once you get that straight, you'll have a better understanding of how it's going to be.

[jacee]

This is what has always puzzled me in the claims of many who support the natives. I don't deny that the natives have many claims with validity but this idea that they had a right to ALL of Canadian land just doesn't make sense!

At the time Europeans started colonizing the New World the natives certainly had not surveyed and colonized the entire continent. There were relatively few of them by today's standards. Certainly, there were never enough to cover every square foot of territory. Most of Canada was open and undeveloped, some of it even unexplored by natives, for the simple reason that there weren't that many of them compared to the size of the country!

Yet we are to believe that they have a right to be considered the landlords of the entire country. Certainly, if land had been unfairly taken from the natives, like Kettle Point for just one example, then the native claims are not just valid but obvious. Still, it seems that some take the idea to the point of ridiculous.

The Supreme Court - ie Canadian law - can clarify your questions. You could try researching it a bit.

Aboriginal rights apply to all of Canada, and believe me they know exactly where their traditional territories are.These rights are the basis of consultation and accommodation by industry.

Aboriginal title - outright ownership - applies to specific lands.

You don't seem to understand the matter very well, and are consequently off base.

Also, this idea of the land in many areas being worth far more due to development never seems to get fair consideration. Look at what happened at the Douglas Creek Estates in Caledonia. If the natives were to get possession of that land, why should they have a right to all the houses built on it? Should the land not be razed and reforested? Should it not be restored to the condition it was first in when the natives supposedly unfairly lost it?

That was their request. The government balked but finally did it, leaving only one house for security. Again, you don't seem well informed.

If a land claim is in a native band's favour in Northern Canada, should they be entitled to any operating mines in that area, for free? How much mining were natives doing when the New World was being colonized by Europe?

I am not trying to deny that natives have legitimate claims. I just can't understand this idea that they are entitled to EVERYTHING!

What's more, most native bands do not possess the infrastructure in people or resources to keep running things like gold mines. Certainly not without buying and using equipment invented and manufactured by people OTHER than natives! I won't deny that there are some natives that can do this but I don't think there are enough of them for the scale of what would be involved.

I also don't see why Canada should be the only country in the world expected to be held to the standards of today for what happened a couple of centuries ago, much of which happened before there was a Canada!

I've always believed that if you personally had no input or power with a decision then you are not responsible for it. This idea that somehow everyone not native belongs to some "tribe" with a collective guilt is totally bananas, as far as I'm concerned! I have enough problem dealing with my own sins. I do not accept responsibility in anyway for those of anyone else!

Frankly, I find the idea of collective guilt due to sharing race a fundamental cause of racism in the first place! Should I refuse to have a Japanese Canadian for a friend because his great grandfather fought for Japan in the Pacific theatre?

After all, is he not of that "tribe"?

And yet the Germans continue to pay reparations to the Jews.

"Collective guilt"?

How about collective responsibility.

But how you characterize it is irrelevant anyway.

It's the law.

Canada's laws.

Love it or leave it!

Read up on it sometime.

[jacee]

No government builds housing for people, they have to pay for it themselves.

Not true. All levels of government contribute to building public housing.

And housing for Indigenous people is one of the agreements we made with them for the privilege of living on their land.

Public buildings are paid out of taxes, something Natives on reserves specifically don't have to pay. So the ROC is paying to have natives live on welfare. It's not good for them, and not good for us. Time for them to work and pay taxes, same as everybody else.

Not paying taxes to 'the Crown' is another agreement we made with them for the privilege of living on their land.

"Same as everybody else" doesn't apply and never will.

We have specific legal agreements with Aboriginal Peoples - treaties enforced by our own courts - that allow us to live on THEIR land.

Once you grasp that fact, the rest is understandable.

[jacee]

Are you saying that the natives at that time considered the entire land mass of Canada as theirs,

Yes.

So does our Supreme Court.

to be an object of trade?

No. They 'traded' - made treaties with us - only for our use of the land, and by the treaties they also retain rights to use the land. That's the source of Aboriginal rights as acknowledged in our Constitution Act.

Are you saying that non-natives agreed to have natives as their landlords, forever?

Yes.

And while you may not like some laws made before your time, as a Canadian you are bound to uphold them.

[jacee]

So to right the wrongs of long ago we are supposed to punish a completely different group of people today? No wonder racist feuds can last for generations!

I well understand what Bruce Cockburn meant when he sang "If I had a rocket launcher, I'd make somebody pay!"

I can guarantee that Bruce Coburn wouldn't be amused.

His "rocket launcher" was aimed at governments and corporations that stole land and resources and livelihoods from Indigenous Peoples - eg in Guatemala.

[capricorn]

Seems to me if they don't want it some other company will.

Don't lose sight of the fact that the Canadian Council of Chief Executives is a group made up of hundreds of companies, large and small. John Manley is their President and Chief Executive Officer.

http://www.ceocouncil.ca/about-ccce/members

Chances are any company vying to do business with aboriginal communities is on that list of members and are all singing from the same songbook.

[Bonam]

How would their societies, religion, systems of government, education, etc. have developed had we not completely disrupted them and demanded that they throw everything away and become "civilized"? Their ways of life were completely incompatible with Europeans, yet they were led to believe that it was a partnership the entire time and that Europeans were "sharing" the land with them.

Who is this we? I wasn't here then. Neither were my ancestors.

[Canuckistani]

I tried to post an article that was removed. It said what I've been thinking for a long time. Immigration brings in more people every two years than all the Natives in Canada. These people don't share the white mans's guilt, and at some point are going to tell the natives if they want to eat they've got to work. No more free ride based on race.

[carepov]

To everyone that thinks that Natives are “mooching from the rest of Canada” or similar:

Please open your eyes to the education funding gap between Natives and non-Natives.

“Each student receives, on average, about $3,000 less in funding every year from kindergarten through Grade 12 than non-natives.”

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/politics/article/1136945--harper-conservatives-set-to-back-motion-to-end-aboriginal-education-funding-gap-fulfilling-shannen-s-dream

More on the funding gap:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/commentary/editorials/spending-cap-on-aboriginal-education-is-self-defeating/article533811/

Thank goodness all political parties have finally agreed to at least close the gap! How long has this been going on for and why? It makes no sense to me – can anyone explain this gap?