Robert Gates talks OBL

[bleeding heart]

He got 33 years for helping the United States get the top terrorist in the world. There was a 25M dollar reward for bin Laden, or something like that. Now he's vilified by his own people. Even if they let him out of prison, drop the charges, he'd probably be killed as a traitor.

The guy should have been a hero yet clearly they are making a statement about their true alliances. What kind of an ally is this?

Well, no, because what he also did was to pretend a vaccination program, in which he gave children the first shot...but not the crucial followup shots.

Entirely illegal in Pakistan...as it is here.

That's your "hero."

[Guest Manny]

Well, no, because what he also did was to pretend a vaccination program, in which he gave children the first shot...but not the crucial followup shots.

Entirely illegal in Pakistan...as it is here.

That's your "hero."

Not my hero, necessarily. But I didn't know about the phoney vaccination program.

Was that part of the setup, in collaboration with the CIA? Surely this was a vital part of the surveillance they were doing to find OBL.

In any case, it may have been illegal or unethical. But was this the basis for the charges against him?

[bleeding heart]

Was that part of the setup, in collaboration with the CIA? Surely this was a vital part of the surveillance they were doing to find OBL.

Yes, it was; a fake vaccination campaign among people who are already suspicious of Western vaccination programs (and plainly they have real reason to be suspicious); and further, since the vaccine was genuine, but only of a single dose, it actually increases the risk of the children getting sick.

Here in Canada and the US, we call that homicidal negligence...if not attempted murder.

But since it was in an attempt to find a terrorist, intentionally harming children is super awesome. (so much for "collateral damage"...we're talking here about intent. We might stop playing at being Innocent Good Guys someday--but probably not anytime soon.

In any case, it may have been illegal or unethical. But was this the basis for the charges against him?

I don't know. Not to my knowledge, but maybe part of it. It's not relevant to my point, however.

Edited May 28, 2012 by bleeding heart

[Guest Manny]

I don't know. Not to my knowledge, but maybe part of it. It's not relevant to my point, however.

But it is relevant, because you're taking an ethical position that he deserved to go to jail for what he did. If no one charged him for doing that, then it wasn't seen as an important crime by those authorities. They jailed him because of what I said, he helped the US find bin Laden. Although what he did with the vaccine was wrong, it wasn't lethal. He probably got the vaccine and other support from US sources. The details of this may not be known, but presumably there was something in it for him. Most likely, money from the US.

Point I made several posts back is relevant. If people who help the US government achieve their objectives get seriously screwed over for doing it, it sends a message, don't help USA. Second, that Pakistan arrested and imprisoned him for treason or some act related to helping find bin Laden indicated pretty clearly they are not allies in the war on terror. In fact I suspect quite the opposite.

Edited May 28, 2012 by Manny

[bleeding heart]

But it is relevant, because you're taking an ethical position that he deserved to go to jail for what he did. If no one charged him for doing that, then it wasn't seen as an important crime by those authorities. They jailed him because of what I said, he helped the US find bin Laden. Although what he did with the vaccine was wrong, it wasn't lethal.

It's potentially lethal to give the first shot of a hepatitus vaccine, and then to forego the second. It can make them sick. The risk itself makes it very wrong, regardless of the consequences. (You keep saying unethical: it's illegal, too, presumably virtually everywhere.)

Why he couldn't use a placebo is beyond me. It still stinks--he'd still deserve to be in trouble--but what the hell????

He probably got the vaccine and other support from US sources. The details of this may not be known, but presumably there was something in it for him. Most likely, money from the US.

Yes, i have no doubt he was given money, which of course makes him a slimy litle mercenary.

And of course, the US is culpable, too. Obviously.

Point I made several posts back is relevant. If people who help the US government achieve their objectives get seriously screwed over for doing it, it sends a message, don't help USA.

Well in this particular case, it would appear that a certain criminal organization--the United States of America--broguht it upon themselves. Targeting children and so on.

Second, that Pakistan arrested and imprisoned him for treason or some act related to helping find bin Laden indicated pretty clearly they are not allies in the war on terror. In fact I suspect quite the opposite.

No, clearly Pakistani is not trustworthy, and plainly the US is not trustworthy. Further, there is no such thing as a "war on terror," which is preposterous at its inception. (The US, like most of its major allies, including Canada, are themselves full--fledged supporters of terrorism...so how can they be prosecuting a "war" against it?)

Consider the contradictory aspects of this; it doesn't even make sense.

Edited May 28, 2012 by bleeding heart