Bob Rae vs. Thomas Mulcair

Newfoundlander · April 5, 2012

Really you didn't know that? You do know the budget the Cons just laid down projects 4 years right? They must do by magic "Knowing exactly what is happening in the economy" then right?

The projections will likely change but they knew what was going on this year to release a budget.

Did the NDP know how much the economy was going to grow over 4 years and what are revenues were going to be for each year?

Newfoundlander · April 5, 2012

punked, I don't know how you can even reply to stuff like that.

So it's better to just make snarky comments?

cybercoma · April 5, 2012

So it's better to just make snarky comments?

No. It's probably just better not to feed the trolls.

Newfoundlander · April 5, 2012

No. It's probably just better not to feed the trolls.

Wow you're so mature!

Smallc · April 5, 2012

punked, I don't know how you can even reply to stuff like that.

Stuff like what? Valid criticisms of the NDP? The NDP platform in 2008 for example, would have produced a huge deficit, if for no other reason than the downturn in the economy.

punked · April 5, 2012

punked, I don't know how you can even reply to stuff like that.

It just dumbfounds me sometimes. The NDP have released a platform based on a completely different set of goals. It exists and to pretend it doesn't is just crazy, to that end the Liberals have one as well. The problem here is Newfoundlander wants the NDP to now base their policies on a Conservative budget which it can't. The NDP talked about rolling back corporate tax cuts, axing the tough on crime plans, and Jet fighters. If the NDP were running the show as their platform speaks to it would be a different ball game. So different they could not release a shadow budget document without swallowing somethings they can't swallow they would be legitimizing everything the Cons are doing. If you truly want to know what the NDP would do go read their platform, if you want a stupid talking point then what Newfoundlander is the guy to go to here.

punked · April 5, 2012

Stuff like what? Valid criticisms of the NDP? The NDP platform in 2008 for example, would have produced a huge deficit, if for no other reason than the downturn in the economy.

Like the Conservatives? So what is your point again? Oh I remember it is that now own a large part of a very successful company and don't want to pay a higher tax rate. That is fine but you are addressing any real points.

Smallc · April 5, 2012

Really you didn't know that? You do know the budget the Cons just laid down projects 4 years right?

So far, ever since the worst deficit year, the Conservatives have done better than originally predicted.

Evening Star · April 5, 2012

I actually also think it would be a good idea for the Opposition to produce an alternative budget that is more detailed than their 2011 election platform. I mean, whether or not they (we?) like what the Tories have done so far we do have to live with it. If the NDP wins power in 2015, they will have to deal with the effects of CPC government.

punked · April 5, 2012

So far, ever since the worst deficit year, the Conservatives have done better than originally predicted.

Great awesome I really am glad but I don't like their vision of Canada period.

Newfoundlander · April 5, 2012

It just dumbfounds me sometimes. The NDP have released a platform based on a completely different set of goals. It exists and to pretend it doesn't is just crazy, to that end the Liberals have one as well. The problem here is Newfoundlander wants the NDP to now base their policies on a Conservative budget which it can't. The NDP talked about rolling back corporate tax cuts, axing the tough on crime plans, and Jet fighters. If the NDP were running the show as their platform speaks to it would be a different ball game. So different they could not release a shadow budget document without swallowing somethings they can't swallow they would be legitimizing everything the Cons are doing. If you truly want to know what the NDP would do go read their platform, if you want a stupid talking point then what Newfoundlander is the guy to go to here.

So why can't the NDP come out and show Canadians a spread sheet today saying if we were in today corporate taxes would be rolled back bringing in so much money, tough on crime legislation would be axed saving this much money, etc. etc. and be able to tell Canadians that in 2012 an NDP government would have a deficit of however much compared to the Conservatives. It may just be for show but at least it would be putting in some effort.

Opposition parties should be telling us regularly how they would govern, not every four years. Especially with new leaders involved.

Edited April 5, 2012 by Newfoundlander

cybercoma · April 5, 2012

So far, ever since the worst deficit year, the Conservatives have done better than originally predicted.

The F-35 situation is the worst case of fiscal mismanagement in the history of this country. It's either intentional deception or gross incompetence. So you might not want to laud the fiscal management we have with the Conservatives.

punked · April 5, 2012

I actually also think it would be a good idea for the Opposition to produce an alternative budget that is more detailed than their 2011 election platform. I mean, whether or not they (we?) like what the Tories have done so far we do have to live with it. If the NDP wins power in 2015, they will have to deal with the effects of CPC government.

Here is the problem out side of an election year discussion of where Canada should be heading, producing a shadow budget means you talk about an alternative country. One where Large Corporate tax rates are higher, small business tax is lower, many Capital expenses are different and so on. In that a shadow budget outside of an election year will always be called pie in the sky or it has to accept the other guys argument for where taxes should be and so on. It would be a bad idea because it would be an exercise in predicting something that would happen over the next year that would never be proven to be real.

punked · April 5, 2012

So why can't the NDP come out and show Canadians a spread sheet today saying if we were in today corporate taxes would be rolled back bringing in so much money, tough on crime legislation would be axed saving this much money, etc. etc. and be able to tell Canadians that in 2012 an NDP government would have a deficit of however much compared to the Conservatives. It may just be for show but at least it would be putting in some effort.

Opposition parties should be telling us regularly how they would govern, not every four years. Especially with new leaders involved.

They did in their platform seriously go look at it. IT IS COSTED. The document you want already exists and this might surprise you but it is less then a year old. The Cons just come forward with what is a 4 year budget yet I don't see you getting mad about them projecting out like the NDP platform does.

Edited April 5, 2012 by punked

Smallc · April 5, 2012

The F-35 situation is the worst case of fiscal mismanagement in the history of this country. It's either intentional deception or gross incompetence. So you might not want to laud the fiscal management we have with the Conservatives.

What are you talking about? A ) the auditor didn't implicate the government in any way, and B ) no money has been spent on the project.

cybercoma · April 5, 2012

What are you talking about? A ) the auditor didn't implicate the government in any way, and B ) no money has been spent on the project.

Billions of taxpayers' dollars almost went into a program and the government had no involvement.

Accepting that this is the case, think about that for a minute.

cybercoma · April 5, 2012

Seriously, Smallc. You ought to watch the segment on At Issue that was posted in the other thread and pay attention to what Andrew Coyne is saying. Here's a direct link:

http://www.cbc.ca/video/#/Shows/ID=2219152659

Newfoundlander · April 5, 2012

They did in their platform seriously go look at it. IT IS COSTED. The document you want already exists and this might surprise you but it is less then a year old. The Cons just come forward with what is a 4 year budget yet I don't see you getting made about them projecting out like the NDP platform does.

So you're telling me if the NDP had won power in 2008 the world recession that followed wouldn't have had an impact on how they governed, that they would have done everything they had said no matter what was happening globally?

Edited April 5, 2012 by Newfoundlander

punked · April 5, 2012

So you're telling me if the NDP had won powering 2008 the world recession that followed wouldn't have had an impact on how they governed, that they would have done everything they had said no matter what was happening globally?

"We are all Keynesians now"-Richard Nixon.

What we got in 2008 wasn't a budget anyone liked. I don't see you demanding the Cons put out an alternative budget for 2008 that said what they would have done in a majority. What you are asking for is silly because the projects would be based on a reality they does not exist. The tax structure would be different, the spending much different even the federal departments. It would all be pretend and make believe.

Much like the old Conservative "You give us a majority and Jobs will come to Canada" which never happened. It is all make believe until you are making real policy which goes into effect and changes the lives of the people of this country.

cybercoma · April 5, 2012

The Conservative job-creation plan is to fire 20,000 of the Government of Canada's employees.

capricorn · April 5, 2012

The Conservative job-creation plan is to fire 20,000 of the Government of Canada's employees.

Government opponents have criticized Harper for growing the bureaucracy and now that the government is scaling back, they're still complaining. There's just no satisfying the expectations of anti-Conservatives. So predictable and transparent, it's laughable.

People should keep their pants on. Jobs that are declared surplus will be absorbed through attrition and laid off employees will go on a priority list for re-hiring.

I'm not concerned about any negative fallout over this move by the Conservatives. I suspect the majority of Canadians approve of cutting back the bureaucracy and most probably would approve more of it.

cybercoma · April 5, 2012

The problem is where he's making the cutbacks. He has more cabinet ministers than ever, but he's cutting services to the public. Meanwhile, we're all paying just as much taxes as ever, unless you own an oilfield or bank.

Newfoundlander · April 5, 2012

Government opponents have criticized Harper for growing the bureaucracy and now that the government is scaling back, they're still complaining. There's just no satisfying the expectations of anti-Conservatives. So predictable and transparent, it's laughable.

This is all the opposition does.

In Newfoundland and Labrador the NDP campaigned on cutting spending by 1%, but now that the PC government is looking to see if they can reduce the civil service through attrition and laying off contractual employees or those who are not permanent they are up in arms complaining about them getting rid of jobs.

cybercoma · April 5, 2012

Because we all know the only way to control spending is by firing people.

Smallc · April 5, 2012

Billions of taxpayers' dollars almost went into a program and the government had no involvement.

Accepting that this is the case, think about that for a minute.

The 'government' is a very broad thing. DND is part of the government. I don't see how you can fault the executive for leaving matters of military procurement to the military. Now, we see that there were problems, but the executive isn't to blame here.

Seriously, Smallc. You ought to watch the segment on At Issue that was posted in the other thread and pay attention to what Andrew Coyne is saying. Here's a direct link:

http://www.cbc.ca/video/#/Shows/ID=2219152659

Why should I care what Andrew Coyne says? Sometimes, I think he's smart, and sometimes I think he isn't.

So you're telling me if the NDP had won power in 2008 the world recession that followed wouldn't have had an impact on how they governed, that they would have done everything they had said no matter what was happening globally?

Oh definitely.

The Conservative job-creation plan is to fire 20,000 of the Government of Canada's employees.

Is there no such thing as an unnecessary government job, then? Should government grow in perpetuity, with all departmental programs continued to infinity? Seriously, this is something like half the number of government employees that have been added in the last five years.