Stephane Dion Takes on the NDP

[Newfoundlander]

Wont matter because the Bloc lost more then just public opinion in the last vote, they lost seats which means they lose resources, Harper took all their money away, and the organization is suffer we can see this in the PQ playing out right now. They might not even make it to the next election organization wise. They are the weakest they have ever been right now, and with policies that reflect what the NDP is pushing anyway it will be a much harder fight for them in the future. Let the NDP get a new leader, rally around them and then tell me about the polls seriously.

They managed to win a huge majority of the seats in 1993 after coming out of nowhere. And can you honestly say that the NDP were well organized in Quebec heading into the 2011 election?

[punked]

So if they brought in a national daycare system, or a gun registry they wouldn't impose it on provinces if they didn't want it, as well as allow them to explore alternative forms of health car delivery?

You know how a National Healthcare system was brought in right? It wasn't imposed on the provinces at all the Federal government said "listen we are willing to chip in if you willing to pay to". Each province accepted it on its own free will as the people of those provinces demanded it seeing it was a good idea. Right now many people are looking to Quebecs Daycare program and studying it saying "This is a model we might want to work toward". I sure with a push from the Feds some provinces would adopt it and as others saw the good it was doing they would debate it to.

It is a model the NDP has followed and brought up for discussion many times. You don't have to go to the provinces and say "It is my way or the high way" to get things done. In fact until the 1960-70s it has never been done that way.

[Newfoundlander]

THen having to deal with another 20 years of the BQ dominating Quebec.

If they can help in a referendum more power to them!

[madmax]

That's pretty selective. Under Chretien, the Liberals had almost as many seats and more votes than the Bloc.

Not selective at all

They are using DIONS numbers.. as DION is the Liberal stirring the pot.

As far as I remember the Liberals never the BQ in quebec ...

What is clear to me.. is Quebeckers wanted a change.. and many in political want it to go back to the Liberal/BQ divide.

I think the people Quebec wants to move away from Divisive politics..

Threads a lightening rod..

I think this is Dions end of days...

[Smallc]

That must be why Bouchard won one more seat in 1998 promising another referendum even before sponsorship broke right? Because Chrietien crushed separatism so much they gave the Separatist a majority government again. Smallc you are way off the mark on this one.

No, a poll, published in the NYT, in the year 2000, showed separatism at 25%. Even now, at 30%, it's still above that level. Also, again, Chretien did well in the popular vote in Quebec.

The success of the PQ had and will have more to do with a lack of credible alternatives.

[Newfoundlander]

You know how a National Healthcare system was brought in right? It wasn't imposed on the provinces at all the Federal government said "listen we are willing to chip in if you willing to pay to". Each province accepted it on its own free will as the people of those provinces demanded it seeing it was a good idea. Right now many people are looking to Quebecs Daycare program and studying it saying "This is a model we might want to work toward". I sure with a push from the Feds some provinces would adopt it and as others saw the good it was doing they would debate it to.

It is a model the NDP has followed and brought up for discussion many times. You don't have to go to the provinces and say "It is my way or the high way" to get things done. In fact until the 1960-70s it has never been done that way.

So what about a gun registry or private health care? This stuff is rarely mentioned to the public so I have no idea where the NDP stand.

[Smallc]

They are using DIONS numbers..

against the BQs historic high numbers. At one time, the Liberals had 74 seats in Quebec. I'm sure those numbers are just as relevant.

[punked]

The NDP kicked the BQs butt.. Something no party had been able to do successfully ever since the BQ formed after leaving the Progressive Conservatives of Brian Mulroney.

If I recall correctly The Conservatives share the "Quebec is a Nation" stance..

"Prime Minister Stephen Harper says he will introduce a motion recognizing that Quebecers form a nation..."

and I believe the NDP do as well.

The Liberals do Not.

That said..

I am very very very happy to see the BQ go...

But there are some on this forum that would love to restart the old battle and breath some life back into the smoldering ashes of the BQ.

I would rather see people throwing stones at the NDP..

THen having to deal with another 20 years of the BQ dominating Quebec.

Well said. I have a lot of Liberal friends who openly tell me they would rather have a BQ and divided Canada with a strong Liberal government like we had in the 90s or early 80s then have a united Canada and weak Liberal party. That is what is wrong about this debate. It is dumb the Separatist and dying a quite death the Liberals are shouting about it because while they die we are ignoring hypotheticals. It is good politics for bad policy.

[Newfoundlander]

No, a poll, published in the NYT, in the year 2000, showed separatism at 25%. Even now, at 30%, it's still above that level. Also, again, Chretien did well in the popular vote in Quebec.

The success of the PQ had and will have more to do with a lack of credible alternatives.

Wasn't their a poll just recently showing separatism at over 40%?

[Smallc]

Well said. I have a lot of Liberal friends who openly tell me they would rather have a BQ and divided Canada with a strong Liberal government like we had in the 90s or early 80s then have a united Canada and weak Liberal party.

I highly doubt that. The Liberals, after all, did quite well before the BQ.

[madmax]

If they can help in a referendum more power to them!

Another person wanting to stir the Referendum Pot...

Sorry, but thats something left to the Separatist Governments of Quebec...

And they have lost ground over the past 30 years of their legal existance.

Times have changed... the Young people aren't interested in your old battles..

[madmax]

I highly doubt that. The Liberals, after all, did quite well before the BQ.

Very True

[punked]

I highly doubt that. The Liberals, after all, did quite well before the BQ.

You mean when the Third party was a Western Canadian Farmer party? I am shocked the Liberals did quite well when they were the only French option in Quebec. Seriously there has been a huge ground shift as the NDP has grown as a party and become a national party with national goals.

The Liberals have always benefited from being the only option. I think those days are gone but maybe I am wrong.

Edited March 14, 2012 by punked

[Smallc]

You mean when the Third party was a Western Canadian Farmer party? I am shocked the Liberals did quite well when they were the only French option in Quebec. Seriously there has been a huge ground shift as the NDP has grown as a party and become a national party with national goals.

The NDP, thus far, has proven that they aren't a credible 'French' (sic) option. We'll see if the new leader can make a difference.

[punked]

The NDP, thus far, has proven that they aren't a credible 'French' (sic) option. We'll see if the new leader can make a difference.

It is a values based and policy option. During the 60-70s they still had a lot of policy positions which didn't speak to Quebec but as the party has moved and the Quebec voter has moved they are now very very close. In the 80-90s no one could even look to a party besides the debate was Federalism (Liberals) vs some form of Separatism. As we move away from that debate the Liberals often times are to the right of most Quebec voter so they need to bring back the debate that won them Quebec with out having to move away from the more centrist voter in the rest of the country.

It is a weird ground shift I agree but just look at it through time.

[Newfoundlander]

Another person wanting to stir the Referendum Pot...

Sorry, but thats something left to the Separatist Governments of Quebec...

And they have lost ground over the past 30 years of their legal existance.

Times have changed... the Young people aren't interested in your old battles..

I don't want to stir a pot I want Quebec to separate.

[Smallc]

It is a weird ground shift I agree but just look at it through time.

I think you're looking at it from your own view, but I'm not sure you're seeing it. The new poll in the other thread showing what is pretty close to a 4 way tie in Quebec between the 4 parties very much outlines that Quebec is a very diverse province.

[punked]

I think you're looking at it from your own view, but I'm not sure you're seeing it. The new poll in the other thread showing what is pretty close to a 4 way tie in Quebec between the 4 parties very much outlines that Quebec is a very diverse province.

Oh know I understand which is common whenever you are 4 years away from an election and the electorate is not engaged. Again it is much easier for the Liberals with nationally if they can talk to Quebec about Federalism and make them promises they never have to deliver on like National Daycare. However it is much harder for the Liberals to win Quebec when they have to talk them on national issues because Quebec is further left then most Liberals want to go. It is much better for the Liberals to make Separatism an issues or hope to when it is not an issue then have to come up with policy.

[fellowtraveller]

It will be killed off over time through compromise which will make us a stronger country.

Wrong. There cannot be compromise, significant compromise on an issue as basic as the dissolution of the country.

This kind of 'thinking' led to two votes on separation, the second of which came within a whisker of succeeding.

Asymmetrical separatism, the style of Paul Martin and now the NDP, is a recipe for extreme resentment and chronic widespread dissent from every quarter of Canada.

[punked]

Wrong. There cannot be compromise, significant compromise on an issue as basic as the dissolution of the country.

This kind of 'thinking' led to two votes on separation, the second of which came within a whisker of succeeding.

Asymmetrical separatism, the style of Paul Martin and now the NDP, is a recipe for extreme resentment and chronic widespread dissent from every quarter of Canada.

Give me a break. No one in the country likes it when a Federal government made up mostly of representatives from Ontario goes to them and says "This is how it is learn to like it". There needs to be compromise in a country such as ours, I know the Conservatives hate that fact but that is a fact, dictating to NS what fisheries policy is going to be form Ottawa pissed a lot people off there in the 90s, NEP pissed a lot of people off in the west, and the new crime bill is pissing people off in Quebec. All those things were bad choices not because they were wrong but because the provinces weren't brought into the conversation to say what compromises needed to be done.

Sorry our country is big and the government needs to list each region. You are dead wrong on this.

[fellowtraveller]

The NDP believes if we work with the provinces ALL THE provinces, instead of telling them (look at the newest crime bill the provinces had no input in with the Conservatives, look at many many programs under the Liberals) you can have Federalism that works. That is what they ran on talking to not only Quebec but Alberta, NS, and so and agreeing on how things especially those things that effect the provinces can work better from coast to coast. Being good for Quebec and being good for BC are not mutually exclusive things. Lets find common ground and build up from there.

What a load of crap. The NDP -Layton- told Quebec one thing about their position on oil revenue, another entirely to Alberta. Of course, he never had the courage to repeat his Quebec comments in Alberta as he never engaged anybody there ever.

Why? Because he was a political opportunist like all the rest. His actions and words in the last federal campaign were the exact opposite of what you claim for your party. And... it worked. many seats in Quebec. JUst tell them what they want to hear....

Could you possibly dredge up blander campaign slogans than you have in this post?

[Wild Bill]

I don't want to stir a pot I want Quebec to separate.

Understandable! Quebec has never been a friend to Newfoundland.

Remember Churchill Falls? Hows that new undersea power cable to Nova Scotia project coming, anyway? Seriously, I haven't heard anything in months. I cheered at the idea of giving Quebec some consequences for its actions in the past.

[punked]

What a load of crap. The NDP -Layton- told Quebec one thing about their position on oil revenue, another entirely to Alberta. Of course, he never had the courage to repeat his Quebec comments in Alberta as he never engaged anybody there ever.

Why? Because he was a political opportunist like all the rest. His actions and words in the last federal campaign were the exact opposite of what you claim for your party. And... it worked. many seats in Quebec. JUst tell them what they want to hear....

Could you possibly dredge up blander campaign slogans than you have in this post?

Kinda like Harper did with the Atlantic Accord? Whaaaannnn Whaaaannn my party did the exact same thing I hate the NDP for. Give me a break.

Again the provinces need to be consulted on decisions which are national and effect them. That is what the NDP says needs to happen, the other two parties say it is there way or the highway. That is just how it is.

[Newfoundlander]

Remember Churchill Falls? Hows that new undersea power cable to Nova Scotia project coming, anyway? Seriously, I haven't heard anything in months. I cheered at the idea of giving Quebec some consequences for its actions in the past.

it hasn't been sanctioned yet.

[punked]

Understandable! Quebec has never been a friend to Newfoundland.

Remember Churchill Falls? Hows that new undersea power cable to Nova Scotia project coming, anyway? Seriously, I haven't heard anything in months. I cheered at the idea of giving Quebec some consequences for its actions in the past.

It is happening, although Quebec is trying to undermine it by saying they will give NS the same power for the same rate as Newfoundland will. They aren't saying upgrading the power line in NS will cost the same or more as the Underwater cable which NS will actually make money. Most in NS aren't falling for it but the Liberals there are and are pushing to scrap the cable.