F-35 purchase undecided, Fantino says

[Guest Derek L]

There is no deal....Canada has as many F-35's under contract as The People's Republic of China.

Canada has entered into the requisite political self flagellation that is customary for all military procurements.

You should have read all the opinions thrown around by the “experts” on the selection of the Hornet over the Falcon......

[MACKER]

I'm convinced Canada should produce its own program for defence. And by the time that is done, the F35 will have proven itself or shown to be second rate .. the purchase should be put off until 2020 when the first tier customers have most of their aircraft and have tested them.

There is no need to rush a purchase of f35's because it is already backlogged.

The program is behind schedule 2-3 years already, they really should do a domestic program for "sufficient aircraft" for interception role.

F35's wont be available until 2020 regardless so why not wait until 2018 or so to start seeing how it compares to Russian and Chinese models that they put into production.

[Guest Derek L]

I'm convinced Canada should produce its own program for defence. And by the time that is done, the F35 will have proven itself or shown to be second rate .. the purchase should be put off until 2020 when the first tier customers have most of their aircraft and have tested them.

There is no need to rush a purchase of f35's because it is already backlogged.

The program is behind schedule 2-3 years already, they really should do a domestic program for "sufficient aircraft" for interception role.

F35's wont be available until 2020 regardless so why not wait until 2018 or so to start seeing how it compares to Russian and Chinese models that they put into production.

As currently planned, we won’t receive our initial F-35s until later this decade with the bulk being delivered in the early 2020s……or peak production……….If we ordered them later this decade, we won’t receive them, at best, until the late 2020s and our current Hornet fleet will be hard-pressed remaining in service until the early 2020s, at which point the average airframe age will land between 35 and 40 years old……..

We started receiving the Hornet in the early 80s, but the Hornet’s development started in the 1970s……..Can you imagine our air force in the early 80s still flying fighter aircraft of WW II vintage? Or our air force, in the early 1980s, ordering a frontline fighter developed in the 1950s, and then what started production in the early 1960s, then flying said vintage design into the 2020s? Sound rather crazy eh?

Yet, many are advocating we take a similar track today.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

As currently planned, we won’t receive our initial F-35s until later this decade with the bulk being delivered in the early 2020s……or peak production……….If we ordered them later this decade, we won’t receive them, at best, until the late 2020s and our current Hornet fleet will be hard-pressed remaining in service until the early 2020s, at which point the average airframe age will land between 35 and 40 years old……..

We started receiving the Hornet in the early 80s, but the Hornet’s development started in the 1970s……..Can you imagine our air force in the early 80s still flying fighter aircraft of WW II vintage? Or our air force, in the early 1980s, ordering a frontline fighter developed in the 1950s, and then what started production in the early 1960s, then flying said vintage design into the 2020s? Sound rather crazy eh?

Yet, many are advocating we take a similar track today.

The F35 is a dog, not a bird. Lots of development issues to say the least. There is no alternative to the F35, unless we want to wait for generation number six.

[Guest Derek L]

The F35 is a dog, not a bird. Lots of development issues to say the least. There is no alternative to the F35, unless we want to wait for generation number six.

A dog? I wouldn’t go that far……..As a contrast, the F-14 Tomcat (made famous by Tom Cruise in Top Gun), fielded numerous technological advancements for it’s day, cost a fortune (even though a lot of it’s technologies were developed during the F-111 program) and killed several flight crews in testing……….No one would argue it’s successful career……….Now the F-35, unlike the Tomcat, isn’t the result of graphing many of the technologies off another expensive aircraft program, in that many of it’s components are “virgin” and it hasn’t killed any flight crew to date.

[stopstaaron]

Why did they make up their own requirements if they were just going to ignore them anyway? That is what befuddles me. If you're just going to say f the process you there really is no point in trying to make it look like you followed your rules.

Is this one of the issues the conservatives were found in contempt of or was that just the pricing?

[Guest Derek L]

Why did they make up their own requirements if they were just going to ignore them anyway? That is what befuddles me. If you're just going to say f the process you there really is no point in trying to make it look like you followed your rules.

Is this one of the issues the conservatives were found in contempt of or was that just the pricing?

Who says they’re ignoring them? With whom do you think is better placed to set technical requirements for military hardware, the Military or the media/politicians?

[stopstaaron]

Who says they’re ignoring them? With whom do you think is better placed to set technical requirements for military hardware, the Military or the media/politicians?

Didn't realize the conservatives have designated you, Derek, as their damage control stooge.

The federal government didn't follow normal procurement procedures to buy the F-35 fighter jets and the plane fails to meet at least one critical feature the government stipulated must be met, documents viewed by CBC News suggest.

Why would CBC be reporting this if it were untrue? Do you have your tin foil hat on Derek?!

You are calling Evan Solomon a liar basically. Yes you are, don't deny it.

[cybercoma]

Who says they’re ignoring them? With whom do you think is better placed to set technical requirements for military hardware, the Military or the media/politicians?

Obviously the military, which is why it's so damn baffling as to why the Conservatives went ahead and rigged the process so they could buy the F-35s without any oversight or open-tender process when the F-35s do not come remotely close to meeting the requirements laid out by the military.

[stopstaaron]

Obviously the military, which is why it's so damn baffling as to why the Conservatives went ahead and rigged the process so they could buy the F-35s without any oversight or open-tender process when the F-35s do not come remotely close to meeting the requirements laid out by the military.

Somebody probably got paid big time by the U.S Lockheed .. ala Airbus affair

Edited March 27, 2012 by stopstaaron

[cybercoma]

Somebody probably got paid big time by the U.S Lockheed .. ala Airbus affair

I suspect you're absolutely right.

WTF is wrong with the governments we have been electing? Mulroney with Airbus, Chretien/Martin with Adscam, and now Harper with this ridiculous F-35 debacle and allegations of voter suppression. It's time to elect an NDP government if for no other reason than to put teams red and blue in the cooler for awhile.

[Guest Derek L]

Didn't realize the conservatives have designated you, Derek, as their damage control stooge.

The federal government didn't follow normal procurement procedures to buy the F-35 fighter jets and the plane fails to meet at least one critical feature the government stipulated must be met, documents viewed by CBC News suggest.

Why would CBC be reporting this if it were untrue? Do you have your tin foil hat on Derek?!

You are calling Evan Solomon a liar basically. Yes you are, don't deny it.

I’ve never called Mr Solomon a liar, merely misinformed (like John Ivison)

The procurement strategy behind the selection of military equipment has been the same for decades………Like the C-17 selection, if there is no viable alternative(s) to meet the militaries requirements, they’re very much allowed to sole source procurement.

As for the “reported failure in meeting stated requirements”, that’s a straw man since the F-35 is still in development, and said problems being reported now by the media have been public knowledge (and posted here by myself several months prior to today’s media report) and have been, or in the process of, being addressed…….This is obvious.

Also during the P&P program today, Mr Solomon incorrectly stated that Lockheed’s competitors can field an aircraft today meeting DND’s requirements…….This is clearly false, as there are no Western aircraft currently being produced with the same level of “stealth” as the JSF.

[cybercoma]

"If there's no viable alternative...."

The F-35 doesn't even meet the standards. What the hell are you talking about, Derek?

The problems aren't being addressed. You're just making that up. The US isn't going to alter production on this thing just because it doesn't meet our military's needs.

Edited March 27, 2012 by cybercoma

[stopstaaron]

It's time to elect an NDP government if for no other reason than to put teams red and blue in the cooler for awhile.

Might as well give them a chance to screw up big time like the other two

[Guest Derek L]

Obviously the military, which is why it's so damn baffling as to why the Conservatives went ahead and rigged the process so they could buy the F-35s without any oversight or open-tender process when the F-35s do not come remotely close to meeting the requirements laid out by the military.

Again, a strawman.....The aircraft is still in development.

Do you think the CBC knows more about the fighter program then the United States Air Force, Navy & Marines, Royal Air Force and Royal Navy, RCAF, Dutch Air Force, RAAF, Italian Air Force and Navy, Norwegian Air Force, Danish Air Force, Israeli Air Force etc……..

Do you really think Lockheed duped all these nations and/or has said Governments in their pockets? Remember, most of these Nations, over the course of the JSF program, have had numerous Governments led from all over the Political Spectrum…….

[cybercoma]

Again, a strawman.....The aircraft is still in development.

Do you think the CBC knows more about the fighter program then the United States Air Force, Navy & Marines, Royal Air Force and Royal Navy, RCAF, Dutch Air Force, RAAF, Italian Air Force and Navy, Norwegian Air Force, Danish Air Force, Israeli Air Force etc……..

Do you really think Lockheed duped all these nations and/or has said Governments in their pockets? Remember, most of these Nations, over the course of the JSF program, have had numerous Governments led from all over the Political Spectrum…….

None of those other governments matter. That's a red-herring.

Our military sets out the requirements they have for equipment. What those other countries need is completely irrelevant.

[Guest Derek L]

"If there's no viable alternative...."

The F-35 doesn't even meet the standards. What the hell are you talking about, Derek?

The problems aren't being addressed. You're just making that up. The US isn't going to alter production on this thing just because it doesn't meet our military's needs.

F-35 Program Head Expresses 'Great Confidence' in Stealth, Sensors

The program executive officer for the problem-plagued F-35 said Thursday he has "great confidence" the multi-service fighter can deliver the oft-promised stealth and the sophisticated package of sensors.

Vice Adm. David Venlet said he has "measured data" to show that.

In a late afternoon address to an audience of defense and financial industry representatives, Venlet said all the current problems with the Lockheed Martin-built aircraft that have been highlighted in the media and congressional hearings "are in the normal range of fighter aircraft development."

The problems Venlet cited included the sophisticated helmet that should allow the pilot to see on a visor all the flight information and sensor readings needed to fly and fight the aircraft, which has experienced flutter in the projected imagery and poor night vision. While the contractor works on those problems, the program office is funding a possible alternative, he said.

I suppose the Vice Admiral isn’t as informed on the project as the Canadian media…….Or I know, he’s in the pocket of Lockheed.

[Guest Derek L]

None of those other governments matter. That's a red-herring.

Our military sets out the requirements they have for equipment. What those other countries need is completely irrelevant.

No it isn’t, our military, like the ones mentioned above, share many of the same requirements, hence the reasoning behind the International cooperation on the program.

[stopstaaron]

I suppose the Vice Admiral isn’t as informed on the project as the Canadian media…….Or I know, he’s in the pocket of Lockheed.

He has great confidence in the Jet that has had all kinds of set backs? I'm sorry man, but no one believes that crap.

Edited March 27, 2012 by stopstaaron

[Guest Derek L]

He has great confidence in the Jet that has had all kinds of set backs? I'm sorry man, but no one believes that crap.

How many billion dollar programs have you led? I’ll defer to the Admirals opinion.

[stopstaaron]

How many billion dollar programs have you led? I’ll defer to the Admirals opinion.

You mean the military that got caught trying to cover up Peter MacKay's misdeeds and searching for information to smear opposition mps? that military?

[Guest Derek L]

You mean the military that got caught trying to cover up Peter MacKay's misdeeds and searching for information to smear opposition mps? that military?

No, this ADM is USN....So how many programs have you led?

[cybercoma]

Derek, I don't give a crap about other countries' requirements. They're completely immaterial. The only requirements that matter are the ones drafted by our military. There's at least one critical requirement that the jet doesn't meet and some 28 requirements in total that it fails to meet. Meanwhile, the stealth doesn't seem to work as advertised either.

Here's the most damning part about this whole thing. The Conservatives intentionally tried to hide what they were doing (rigging the process, so they didn't have to go through standard procurement procedures) by classifying documents, which are usually made public:

The Department of National Defence says it is hiding a key F-35 document from the public because that type of document is classified. Yet its own website hosts many of these same types of papers for public downloading, almost all of which are marked as "unclassified."

Continued... http://embassymag.ca/page/view/jsf-02-23-2011

[Guest Derek L]

Derek, I don't give a crap about other countries' requirements. They're completely immaterial. The only requirements that matter are the ones drafted by our military. There's at least one critical requirement that the jet doesn't meet and some 28 requirements in total that it fails to meet. Meanwhile, the stealth doesn't seem to work as advertised either.

Here's the most damning part about this whole thing. The Conservatives intentionally tried to hide what they were doing (rigging the process, so they didn't have to go through standard procurement procedures) by classifying documents, which are usually made public:

Google STANAG.....Our militaries requirements very much are shared internationally…..

[stopstaaron]

Here's the most damning part about this whole thing. The Conservatives intentionally tried to hide what they were doing (rigging the process, so they didn't have to go through standard procurement procedures) by classifying documents, which are usually made public:

Oh, that is bad, can't wait to read the scathing AG report on this

Derek doesn't seem to mind corruption

Edited March 27, 2012 by stopstaaron